Admitting you don't have faith, acquiring faith

[StaySalty]

One of the things I think is sad is how people with low faith or no faith are beat upon so much. It leads people to be reluctant to admit that they don't have faith or don't fully understand what that means in their life for fear of being demonized as an "unbeliever".

Frankly, it is quite astonishing to me that being an "unbeliever" has any relevancy to morality or righteousness at all, though under God it does. I can understand that, for a God who actually commands that we love him, it must be abrasive for him to feel like we don't fully trust him or all of our faith is not in him. However, when a problem arises, I would hope more interest would be placed in solving the problem that being angry at its existence.

What I mean to say in this is, if a person lacks faith for anything, why can't they just openly say that? Do you really believe God will heal you? Do you really believe God will help you do the impossible? Do you really believe God will solve this problem that has plagued you for over a decade? No! No I don't, I am struggling to believe that because I don't know how to and I read the Bible nearly every day so it isn't from a lack of "hearing" as much as it is from a lack of experience.

Why can't a person say that? Why can't people be honest? Why does God and Christians beat up on struggling Christians over faith, rather than come to their aid.

I don't think ther is anything more enraging and disturbing than being put down, ostracized, shamed, or mistreated for just showing up to church when you have not and are not knowingly or intentionally doing anything wrong.

Love, in my understanding would say:
- I love you but you have a problem
- You might not know it, but this is the problem
- You can fix the problem by doing this
- I'm confident you can fix the problem and I'm here to help
- I look forward to celebrating with you upon your victory over this problem

The above list is positive, constructive, informative, educational, encouraging, and helpful.

However, what I have seen more from God and the church is like this:
- Anger, shame, displeasure, embarrassment, annoyance, agitation over you having a problem
- Provocative speech including sarcasm, intimidation, comparing you to others without your problem, mild insults, belittlement because you have a problem.
- Sprinkles of dry reminders that God loves you (and you should know this by now). By "dry reminder" I mean, it's one thing to say "God loves you", it's another to get up, hug the person warmly, take time to address their concerns and then tell them God loves you (love in action).

I'll close by saying empathy is more valuable than gold. Why have the golden rule, if it is discarded when a Christian slips? Why commit yourself to provocativeness if you know it will discourage and frustrate rather than inform and correct/uplift the one you love? Why be heavy handed in discipline and shame if you are light handed in education and friendship? That is, if you are short on time in helping a person understand, is it just to go all out demonizing them when they show they don't understand?

If you came to encourage, yet the person you are "encouraging" feels like you have a gun to their head, are you really accomplishing your purpose? Are you succeeding or failing? Is there empathy in your actions?

People with low faith need to acquire more faith, not be demonized, imo.

 

[Tangible]

Either you are a sinner or you're not - there are no degrees of sinner-ship. Comparisons are odious.

You had better be a sinner, and be bold about that fact if you want to be saved. Jesus came to save sinners, not those who see themselves as righteous.

 

[Frogster]

Stay far away from those "faith people".They forget that Paul lef Trophimus sick.Peter had frequent illnesses,and Paul was diverted to the Galatian Churches because of illness.

We go through battles of all kinds.

 

[bugkiller]

One of the things I think is sad is how people with low faith or no faith are beat upon so much. It leads people to be reluctant to admit that they don't have faith or don't fully understand what that means in their life for fear of being demonized as an "unbeliever".

Frankly, it is quite astonishing to me that being an "unbeliever" has any relevancy to morality or righteousness at all, though under God it does. I can understand that, for a God who actually commands that we love him, it must be abrasive for him to feel like we don't fully trust him or all of our faith is not in him. However, when a problem arises, I would hope more interest would be placed in solving the problem that being angry at its existence.

What I mean to say in this is, if a person lacks faith for anything, why can't they just openly say that? Do you really believe God will heal you? Do you really believe God will help you do the impossible? Do you really believe God will solve this problem that has plagued you for over a decade? No! No I don't, I am struggling to believe that because I don't know how to and I read the Bible nearly every day so it isn't from a lack of "hearing" as much as it is from a lack of experience.

Why can't a person say that? Why can't people be honest? Why does God and Christians beat up on struggling Christians over faith, rather than come to their aid.

I don't think ther is anything more enraging and disturbing than being put down, ostracized, shamed, or mistreated for just showing up to church when you have not and are not knowingly or intentionally doing anything wrong.

Love, in my understanding would say:
- I love you but you have a problem
- You might not know it, but this is the problem
- You can fix the problem by doing this
- I'm confident you can fix the problem and I'm here to help
- I look forward to celebrating with you upon your victory over this problem

The above list is positive, constructive, informative, educational, encouraging, and helpful.

However, what I have seen more from God and the church is like this:
- Anger, shame, displeasure, embarrassment, annoyance, agitation over you having a problem
- Provocative speech including sarcasm, intimidation, comparing you to others without your problem, mild insults, belittlement because you have a problem.
- Sprinkles of dry reminders that God loves you (and you should know this by now). By "dry reminder" I mean, it's one thing to say "God loves you", it's another to get up, hug the person warmly, take time to address their concerns and then tell them God loves you (love in action).

I'll close by saying empathy is more valuable than gold. Why have the golden rule, if it is discarded when a Christian slips? Why commit yourself to provocativeness if you know it will discourage and frustrate rather than inform and correct/uplift the one you love? Why be heavy handed in discipline and shame if you are light handed in education and friendship? That is, if you are short on time in helping a person understand, is it just to go all out demonizing them when they show they don't understand?

If you came to encourage, yet the person you are "encouraging" feels like you have a gun to their head, are you really accomplishing your purpose? Are you succeeding or failing? Is there empathy in your actions?

People with low faith need to acquire more faith, not be demonized, imo.

A good protion of what you posted sounds like WOF to me. Your comments are exactly why I left the church of my youth. They went from pentecostal, to charismatic, to WOF, and are moving into something called kingdom now. It saddens my heart. It is called abuse and manipulation in my book.

bugkiller

 

[Frogster]

A good protion of what you posted sounds like WOF to me. Yyour comments are exactly why I left the church of my youth. They went from pentecostal, to charismatic, to WOF, and are moving into something called kingdom now. It saddens my heart. It is called abuse and manipulation in my book.

bugkiller

People get beat up if they get sick,or are poor,in that movement.The only wealthy ones are the ones who collect unscriptural tithing.They use mal 3:9,to scare the bajinkies out of people.But what they don't tell the folks,is that we cant be under a levitical curse for not tithing to a priesthood that does not exist anymore.

 

[JamesAH]

A good protion of what you posted sounds like WOF to me. Your comments are exactly why I left the church of my youth. They went from pentecostal, to charismatic, to WOF, and are moving into something called kingdom now. It saddens my heart. It is called abuse and manipulation in my book.

bugkiller

The Pents do not recognize the WOF as an official church in fact the Pents claim the WOF are heretics and are an occult.

 

[sunlover1]

One of the things I think is sad is how people with low faith or no faith are beat upon so much. It leads people to be reluctant to admit that they don't have faith or don't fully understand what that means in their life for fear of being demonized as an "unbeliever".

Frankly, it is quite astonishing to me that being an "unbeliever" has any relevancy to morality or righteousness at all, though under God it does. I can understand that, for a God who actually commands that we love him, it must be abrasive for him to feel like we don't fully trust him or all of our faith is not in him. However, when a problem arises, I would hope more interest would be placed in solving the problem that being angry at its existence.

What I mean to say in this is, if a person lacks faith for anything, why can't they just openly say that? Do you really believe God will heal you? Do you really believe God will help you do the impossible? Do you really believe God will solve this problem that has plagued you for over a decade? No! No I don't, I am struggling to believe that because I don't know how to and I read the Bible nearly every day so it isn't from a lack of "hearing" as much as it is from a lack of experience.

Why can't a person say that? Why can't people be honest? Why does God and Christians beat up on struggling Christians over faith, rather than come to their aid.

I don't think ther is anything more enraging and disturbing than being put down, ostracized, shamed, or mistreated for just showing up to church when you have not and are not knowingly or intentionally doing anything wrong.

Love, in my understanding would say:
- I love you but you have a problem
- You might not know it, but this is the problem
- You can fix the problem by doing this
- I'm confident you can fix the problem and I'm here to help
- I look forward to celebrating with you upon your victory over this problem

The above list is positive, constructive, informative, educational, encouraging, and helpful.

All the things Jesus was not?
Who do you think gets busy and finds the answer first?
The guy above who gets psychologized..
(talk is cheap after all..)
or the guys below who hear the truth in Love?

So I implored Your disciples to cast it out, but they could not.”
41 Then Jesus answered and said,

“O faithless and perverse generation,
how long shall I be with you and bear with you?
Bring your son here.”
(IOW, "Lets do this thing")


Go Jesus!


Then when they asked him why they couldn't he went ahead and told
them why. He said that their faith was small.
Was that mean of him to say?

I think it's US who need to change the way WE think.
We need to think more like Jesus.

 

[bugkiller]

The Pents do not recognize the WOF as an official church in fact the Pents claim the WOF are heretics and are an occult.

That is not quite true. A local church of my youth a main line pentecostal founded in 1914 if I remember right is full blown WOF. Maybe your church thinks so. I don't know what denomination it is. My testimony is first hand and I don't live that far from Tulsa and Broken Arrow where this stuff originated from. I know who dad Hagin is, er was. He died a couple years ago.

I certianly agree that they are heritics and a cult. They are most definately not an occult. If your church teaches such I would go somewhere else because they are just as unbalanced and wrong.

bugkiller

 

[JamesAH]

That is not quite true. A local church of my youth a main line pentecostal founded in 1914 if I remember right is full blown WOF. Maybe your church thinks so. I don't know what denomination it is. My testimony is first hand and I don't live that far from Tulsa and Broken Arrow where this stuff originated from. I know who dad Hagin is, er was. He died a couple years ago.

I certianly agree that they are heritics and a cult. They are most definately not an occult. If your church teaches such I would go somewhere else because they are just as unbalanced and wrong.

bugkiller

Actually that's what I meant I get cult and occult mixed up sometimes.

 

[wayseer]

One of the things I think is sad is how people with low faith or no faith are beat upon so much.

If you feel abused by certain practices get yourself out of there and join a church that caters for us sinners.

Why does God and Christians beat up on struggling Christians over faith, rather than come to their aid.

God does not 'beat up' anyone - we do a too good of job of that ourselves.

Oh, Yes - God is not a cosmic superman.

All faith involves risk. The more you risk the greater the faith. Learn to live on the edge.

 

[StaySalty]

Either you are a sinner or you're not - there are no degrees of sinner-ship. Comparisons are odious.

You had better be a sinner, and be bold about that fact if you want to be saved. Jesus came to save sinners, not those who see themselves as righteous.

I am very glad you posted this, because you illustrated beautifully a problem, though I am certain you did not intend to. People who see themselves as righteous are sinning, they are also incorrect (if you believe a bird is a cow, you are incorrect as well). What is their sin? Their sin is that they are depending upon themselves for righteousness and not Jesus Christ, thus they are not giving him the credit or glory or obedience he deserves. These people are in error.

Now listen carefully to what I am about to say. Their error is understandably abrasive, but if they are loved as God says they are, then there should be a loving desire to see them correct their error.

If you BLOW UP IN ANGER, or are sharp and terse, then your actions are for yourself, not the person. Your emotions cater to yourself, not the person. If you think you are more likely to reveal a person's error through rude and abrasive or intimidating behavior, you won't in many cases.

Though you are absolutely correct on your facts that the person is wrong, your reaction towards them is more of a burden or distraction than an aid.

If you don't believe me, apply the same logic to any error. This notion that heated rhetoric yields positive results (in the case of mistakes or misunderstandings) is false, that's just a fact. Instead, it injects new data into the equation that is a door for false truths (aka, you must not like me, just look at how you speak!).

It is true that bowing to your emotions is an easy way to react. It is also a weak way to react. It takes alot more strength and intelligence to view a person in terms of their motives and intentions, explain to them where they are wrong and why, warn them that their error is abrasive but provide an empathetic lesson on the correct way to be and build their confidence so that they can achieve that.

Hot-headedness is a mindless activity. Just step on a dogs tail or stir a hornet's nest. I would hope those higher than animals would be able to recognize that (though I do have my doubts).

In short, the reaction you imply is an error, imo. That is, if you intended to be helpful.

 

[StaySalty]

Either you are a sinner or you're not - there are no degrees of sinner-ship. Comparisons are odious.

You had better be a sinner, and be bold about that fact if you want to be saved. Jesus came to save sinners, not those who see themselves as righteous.

I am glad you posted this. I will say this last bit.

FRIEND (a friendly friend would say)

Hey listen pal, we're all sinners you know. I know you hear that all the time, but it's true. None of us are righteous on our own man. Honestly, I don't know where we ever got the notion that we were righteous by ourselves since Adam passed on a sinful nature to us all. It could be a lie from the devil or our own egos, our desires to one up others or claim ourselves as acceptable.

Anyways, we should take comfort as sinners, not because of our sin, but because Jesus died for sinners! And because we're all sinners, we are all equal under the Law. Buddy, this is great news man, don't you think? So yeah, don't deny your sinful state, admit it. We ALL ARE. No one in the church will hate you because you are a sinner, they are sinners too. But we're loved deeply by God who sent Christ to die for sinners. Because of His death, He deserves praise and glory for this. He's worthy of it, and it's insulting to Him if you are denying Him that by acting as if you (a sinner) can accomplish righteousness on your own.

Don't insult Christ, but give him glory.

/////////////////////////////////

I don't oppose civility. I believe civility with love can be powerful and reinforce your message.

People can get caught up depending on themselves because they are scared or confused, uncertain or inexperienced, etc. And when people explode on them, it just makes them more uncertain.

Taking the time is worth it, and can help them help others with the same hang up effectively.


OFF TOPIC

I'll close by saying every gay person has heard about hell, "God didn't make Adam and Steve...", Sodom, etc. Not every gay person KNOWS God loves them or that their state as a sinner is the same as a straight person's state as a sinner. Why is that? Maybe, it's the way they have been communicated to.

 

[Lemmiwinks]

One of the things I think is sad is how people with low faith or no faith are beat upon so much. It leads people to be reluctant to admit that they don't have faith or don't fully understand what that means in their life for fear of being demonized as an "unbeliever".

Its a fear thing. Christians fear getting a weaker believer's spiritual cooties.