Socialism - An Evil Concept

jgarden

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I have never said Capitalism is perfect, but rather that Capitalism is better than Socialism.

Capitalism creates unequal prosperity, but Socialism creates equal poverty.

Just because a person attains wealth through Capitalism does not give Socialists a right to steal from the person that has attained wealth in an honest manner.

Are you trying to imply Gates and Buffet got their wealth in an illegal manner? I have not been able to understand what you are trying to prove with the discussion of Gate, Buffet and others.

Are you trying to say Gates and Buffet are better than Christians, because Gates and Buffet give away their wealth, even though there is no evidence Gates and Buffet have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and committed to following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible. If Gates and Buffet think they are buying there way into Heaven that would be really disappointing.
Perhaps "clirus" needs to familiarize herself with the title of her own thread - she just didn't contend that capitalism "is better" than socialism - she makes a value judgment and concludes that socialism is morally "evil!"

Once you cross the line from "better" to "evil" by labelling socialism a "sin" ( by definition "evil" is morally indistinguishable from "sin") you've now introduced religion - in this case "the commandments/doctrines of the Bible."

Bill Gates and Warren Buffett are relevant because they are the world's most successful practicioners of an economic system whose underlying principles, according to "clirus," are morally superior to all the rest - based on the "commandments/doctrines of the Bible."

The only problem with this "endorsement" is that these "high priests" of capitalism (Gates, Buffett), the system that clirus would have us believe best reflects Christian principles, are both atheists/agnostics.

Once she introduced Christianity into the equation having already equated "atheism with poverty," instead of introducing "red herrings" to divert attention, "clirus" should be prepared to explain why a disproportionate number of America's most successful capitalists are atheists/agnostics, not to mention the fact that the 3 most generous philanthropists (Gates, Buffett, Carnegie) in US history don't happen to believe in a "god."
 
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peadar1987

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Perhaps "clirus" needs to familiarize herself with the title of her own thread - she just didn't contend that capitalism "is better" than socialism - she makes a value judgment and concludes that socialism is morally "evil!"

Once you cross the line from "better" to "evil" by labelling socialism a "sin" ( by definition "evil" is morally indistinguishable from "sin") you've now introduced religion - in this case "the commandments/doctrines of the Bible."

Bill Gates and Warren Buffett are relevant because they are the world's most successful practicioners of an economic system whose underlying principles, according to "clirus," are morally superior to all the rest - based on the "commandments/doctrines of the Bible."

The only problem iwith this "endorsement" is that these "high priests" of capitalism (Gates, Buffett), the system that clirus would have us believe best reflects Christian principles, are both atheists/agnostics.

Once she introduced Christianity into the equation having already equated "atheism with poverty," instead of introducing "red herrings" to divert attention, "clirus" should be prepared to explain why a disproportionate number of America's most successful capitalists are atheists/agnostics, not to mention the fact that the 3 most generous philanthropists (Gates, Buffett, Carnegie) in US history don't happen to believe in a "god."



[/thread]

Expect another one saying the exact same thing with miniscule changes to the wording in 3 days time.
 
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jgarden

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[/thread]

Expect another one saying the exact same thing with miniscule changes to the wording in 3 days time.
My purpose was never to change the OP's "mind" (an unobtainable goal) but to sharpen one's debating skills and background as a Christian/socialist and to demonstrate/share new and different ways of highlighting the falacies of such positions.

In this particular case, I was unaware that the world's top 2 capitalists (Gates, Buffett) and the 3 most generous philanthropists in American history (Gates, Buffett, Carnegie) are all atheists/agnostics until I researched it.

Directly linking "atheism" with capitalism and philanthropy is not only useful in questioning this OP's extremist views, but it can be useful when applied to other threads which may place a greater challenge on debating skills.
 
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peadar1987

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My purpose was never to change the OP's "mind" (an unobtainable goal) but to sharpen one's debating skills and background as a Christian/socialist and to demonstrate/share new and different ways of highlighting the falacies of such positions.

In this particular case, I was unaware that the world's top 2 capitalists (Gates, Buffett) and the 3 most generous philanthropists in American history (Gates, Buffett, Carnegie) are all atheists/agnostics until I researched it.

Directly linking "atheism" with capitalism and philanthropy is not only useful in questioning this OP's extremist views, but it can be useful when applied to other threads which may place a greater challenge on debating skills.

So clirus is sort of a punchbag for your debating skills? Something that's going to sit there predictably while you practice your jabs, and not do any damage to you. Got it! ;)
 
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MacFall

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Clirus: what you call "socialism" is basically just theft on a grand scale; "legal plunder" as Frederic Bastiat described it.. There's no need to use political appellations for it. There are self-described socialists who do not believe in your "socialism", and there are many people who, despite their supposed opposition to socialism, still support legal plunder.

So I'm interested to know: what do you think of our socialized military, police, and law institutions? Does your opposition to legalized theft end there, or would you carry the principle to its logical (and morally consistent) conclusion and advocate voluntary institutions in their place?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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The time has come for the second part of my signature to apply.

Before I go though, I'd like to add one more observation. I'm sure everyone's already noticed: Clirus represents people in stereotypes. In her mind, Christians are unequivocally good, Atheists are evil and will experience disease, death and poverty because of their 'Atheistic Lifestyle', gays will acquire HIV/AIDS because of their homosexuality, most poor people are at fault for their own poverty, illegitimate children and their mothers will become welfare dependents, people who fail to provide for their children are always at fault for that failure. Etc, are among some of the stereotypes that Clirus has formulated. She paints all social identities that she dislikes with an all too broad brush.

In Clirus mind, these stereotypes are stable concepts of social categorization: they are representations of the way things are. We know, however, and throughout the course of many threads we have shown, that these representations are not stable: they have little applicability to the way things actually are, and are more-or-less simply manifestations of Clirus' own prejudices.

When these stereotypical images are inspected and indeed challenged, Clirus does not relinquish them at all, she merely repeats them as though incessant repetition were a valid substitute for sound argument (it's not). It is impossible for her to conceive of a world in which the variables that she has claimed to be significantly correlated, indeed causally linked, are not. A world where there might not necessarily be a significant association between Atheism and poverty (see #139). A world where homosexuality and HIV/AIDS are not causally connected in some metaphysical sense. A world where failure to provide for one's child is not always caused by parental negligence, laziness or some abject failure of personal responsibility.

The problem with Clirus' whole ideology is that she cannot move beyond the stereotypes that she has created. She has developed a simple, but broad, schema for categorizing social experiences and attaching meaning to them, even when the meaning attached does not necessarily apply in all (or most) cases. This ill-founded, rigid and dogmatic conceptual framework lies at the core of her ideology, and for whatever reason, Clirus seems unable to move beyond that. She is either unable or otherwise unwilling to modify these cognitive schema to accomodate for new information and insights. Instead, she finds some elaborate way of assimilating the information according to her existing schema. This makes persuading Clirus a futile endeavor, for she will always convince herself that her conceptual system, her mode of representation, is correct. This does not make our efforts in vain however. While persuading Clirus is impossible, showing her that her ideas are unfounded, challenged and indeed rejected is possible.

I hope that Clirus can, over the course of time, learn to modify the rigid schema that she currently employs to represent the world internally.

On that note... I'm off! Happy posting.

Cheers. ;)
 
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clirus

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The time has come for the second part of my signature to apply.

Before I go though, I'd like to add one more observation. I'm sure everyone's already noticed: Clirus represents people in stereotypes. In her mind, Christians are unequivocally good, Atheists are evil and will experience disease, death and poverty because of their 'Atheistic Lifestyle', gays will acquire HIV/AIDS because of their homosexuality, most poor people are at fault for their own poverty, illegitimate children and their mothers will become welfare dependents, people who fail to provide for their children are always at fault for that failure. Etc, are among some of the stereotypes that Clirus has formulated. She paints all social identities that she dislikes with an all too broad brush.

In Clirus mind, these stereotypes are stable concepts of social categorization: they are representations of the way things are. We know, however, and throughout the course of many threads we have shown, that these representations are not stable: they have little applicability to the way things actually are, and are more-or-less simply manifestations of Clirus' own prejudices.

When these stereotypical images are inspected and indeed challenged, Clirus does not relinquish them at all, she merely repeats them as though incessant repetition were a valid substitute for sound argument (it's not). It is impossible for her to conceive of a world in which the variables that she has claimed to be significantly correlated, indeed causally linked, are not. A world where there might not necessarily be a significant association between Atheism and poverty (see #139). A world where homosexuality and HIV/AIDS are not causally connected in some metaphysical sense. A world where failure to provide for one's child is not always caused by parental negligence, laziness or some abject failure of personal responsibility.

The problem with Clirus' whole ideology is that she cannot move beyond the stereotypes that she has created. She has developed a simple, but broad, schema for categorizing social experiences and attaching meaning to them, even when the meaning attached does not necessarily apply in all (or most) cases. This ill-founded, rigid and dogmatic conceptual framework lies at the core of her ideology, and for whatever reason, Clirus seems unable to move beyond that. She is either unable or otherwise unwilling to modify these cognitive schema to accomodate for new information and insights. Instead, she finds some elaborate way of assimilating the information according to her existing schema. This makes persuading Clirus a futile endeavor, for she will always convince herself that her conceptual system, her mode of representation, is correct. This does not make our efforts in vain however. While persuading Clirus is impossible, showing her that her ideas are unfounded, challenged and indeed rejected is possible.

I hope that Clirus can, over the course of time, learn to modify the rigid schema that she currently employs to represent the world internally.

On that note... I'm off! Happy posting.

Cheers. ;)

I am glad you summarized your position.

What you describe, is what the world is, but you do not grasp the concept that Jesus overcame the world. I describe the evil of the world in very graphic terms so people can clearly see the Christian Lifestyle is a better way. Atheists have been able to gloss over evil and even making evil sound like fun.

I cannot imagine the fear of a young unmarried woman as she waits three weeks to see if she is pregnant. I know the devastation of parents that are told by their daughter that she is pregnant and the father wants nothing to do with her. I cannot imagine the fear of a homosexual that they might have AIDS.

I believe the Bible is a rigid shema, so I advocate a rigid schema.

Galatians 5:19-23, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkness, revellings, and such like: of which I tell you before, as I have also told you in the time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. --- But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

Socialists/Humanists and Atheists look to new information, new insights, anything except God.

Best of luck on your import/export business.
 
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rambot

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I cannot imagine the fear of a young unmarried woman as she waits three weeks to see if she is pregnant. I know the devastation of parents that are told by their daughter that she is pregnant and the father wants nothing to do with her. I cannot imagine the fear of a homosexual that they might have AIDS.
Certainly these were just toss away examples that just happenned to play into stereotypes right?
Cause you do know reality is more varied than your examples
 
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flicka

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Atheists have been able to gloss over evil and even making evil sound like fun.
I am a non believer and I'm pretty anti-evil. Somehow I have an moral compass hardwired into me, maybe I'm just special that way. I also have a degree of intelligence that many others seem to be lacking. And I try to think logically after looking at all sides of any issue.

This is a good combination. I internally judge things and people all the time. I really don't know what kind of atheists you are hanging out with but let me assure you, the life I live is probably more upstanding than the lives of any 10 Christians put together because I have to answer to myself, and I have very high standards.
 
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peadar1987

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I am a non believer and I'm pretty anti-evil. Somehow I have an moral compass hardwired into me, maybe I'm just special that way. I also have a degree of intelligence that many others seem to be lacking. And I try to think logically after looking at all sides of any issue.

This is a good combination. I internally judge things and people all the time. I really don't know what kind of atheists you are hanging out with but let me assure you, the life I live is probably more upstanding than the lives of any 10 Christians put together because I have to answer to myself, and I have very high standards.

But lying is an inherent and necessary trait of Muslatheism so why should an upstanding Christipublican like Clirus believe you?
 
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clirus

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I am a non believer and I'm pretty anti-evil. Somehow I have an moral compass hardwired into me, maybe I'm just special that way. I also have a degree of intelligence that many others seem to be lacking. And I try to think logically after looking at all sides of any issue.

This is a good combination. I internally judge things and people all the time. I really don't know what kind of atheists you are hanging out with but let me assure you, the life I live is probably more upstanding than the lives of any 10 Christians put together because I have to answer to myself, and I have very high standards.

What about the sin of pride?

A lot of people are like you and I lived that way for 35 years.

I thought I had life well in hand and did not need God.

My children proved to me I needed God, because there were things I could not understand.

When I read the part in the Bible about "All have sinned" and realized that man has a sin nature, I then began to understand and deal with all people in a different way. I still get mad at people, but never disappointed, because they are doing what comes natural.

I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord/Savior because it is truly a great and loving God that is willing to help me in my life by providing the Bible that tells me the past, present and future. For that I respect God

I accepted Jesus Christ because I realized I had a sin debt that could only be paid by the perfect lamb of God. For that I love God.

I added the part about "committing to follow the commandments/doctrines of the Bible" after I realized that a lot of Christians live like the world.
 
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peadar1987

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What about the sin of pride?

If anyone is guilty of the sin of pride it is you. You feel so confident in your own fringe interpretation of the bible that you see fit to call for the deaths of people who don't share that view.
 
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TheReasoner

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What about the sin of pride?

A lot of people are like you and I lived that way for 35 years.

I thought I had life well in hand and did not need God.

My children proved to me I needed God, because there were things I could not understand.

When I read the part in the Bible about "All have sinned" and realized that man has a sin nature, I then began to understand and deal with all people in a different way. I still get mad at people, but never disappointed, because they are doing what comes natural.

I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord/Savior because it is truly a great and loving God that is willing to help me in my life by providing the Bible that tells me the past, present and future. For that I respect God

I accepted Jesus Christ because I realized I had a sin debt that could only be paid by the perfect lamb of God. For that I love God.

I added the part about "committing to follow the commandments/doctrines of the Bible" after I realized that a lot of Christians live like the world.

But Clirus, are you yourself not guilty of the sin of pride when you lift up not the teachings of Christ and the bible but your own subjectively derived opinions as God's word? Many many people here have shown how you fall short with serious and very heavy biblical backing. You have repeatedly dismissed this and repeated your proud position, never relenting.
Could it not indeed be said that by elevating your own views to the position God's truth should hold you are in fact committing a light version of the same sin satan was thrown out of heaven for? By this I mean to ask: Since you often substitute God's word with your own opinion - as has been demonstrated to be a fact - are you not in effect de-throning God and putting yourself in His place? And isn't the devil's attempt at this the sin that got him thrown out of heaven?
We're likely all guilty of that sin to some extent. Humans are by nature proud and selfish beings. What makes it bad is when you persist in this sin despite it being pointed out to you as a sin in a no-nonsense way by many fellow believers.

You say you respect and love God. Fantastic! You say you want to distance yourself from the rest of the world and 'committing to follow the commandments and doctrines of the Bible" - good. So why don't you? You dismiss believers who want to follow Christ's teachings of love as 'atheists' and 'socialists' and continue to tell us that our love for the least among us is incompatible with Christianity. This is extremely unbiblical Clirus. Not at ALL congruent with Christ's teachings.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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But Clirus, are you yourself not guilty of the sin of pride when you lift up not the teachings of Christ and the bible but your own subjectively derived opinions as God's word? Many many people here have shown how you fall short with serious and very heavy biblical backing. You have repeatedly dismissed this and repeated your proud position, never relenting.
Could it not indeed be said that by elevating your own views to the position God's truth should hold you are in fact committing a light version of the same sin satan was thrown out of heaven for? By this I mean to ask: Since you often substitute God's word with your own opinion - as has been demonstrated to be a fact - are you not in effect de-throning God and putting yourself in His place? And isn't the devil's attempt at this the sin that got him thrown out of heaven?
We're likely all guilty of that sin to some extent. Humans are by nature proud and selfish beings. What makes it bad is when you persist in this sin despite it being pointed out to you as a sin in a no-nonsense way by many fellow believers.

You say you respect and love God. Fantastic! You say you want to distance yourself from the rest of the world and 'committing to follow the commandments and doctrines of the Bible" - good. So why don't you? You dismiss believers who want to follow Christ's teachings of love as 'atheists' and 'socialists' and continue to tell us that our love for the least among us is incompatible with Christianity. This is extremely unbiblical Clirus. Not at ALL congruent with Christ's teachings.

Just to add one last word ...

Many of the prophet Clirus' teachings are incongruent with those of Christ. This incompatibility is a sign that all Christians should steer clear of Clirusian ideology lest they be led astray from Christ's teachings. As a specific example, consider how Clirus misconstrues the parable of the Good Samaritan so much so that it looses its original meaning. The parable, if it were to convey what Clirus believes it should, would have been taught very differently from the way in which Christ taught it. Moreover, Clirus' suggestion that we allow a dying Atheist to die is in express contradiction to Christ's command to 'love thy neighbour' and his clear stipulation of who one's neighbour is. It becomes all the more outrageous when one considers how Clirus defines 'Atheist' to include even theists such as Muslims and Hindus! Accordingly, if a Muslim or Hindu is a dying, by Clirus' reckoning, we ought to consider him an Atheist and simply let him die! Needless to say, apart from the obvious injustice, it has already been shown on numerous occasions why this proposition is deeply antithetical to Christianity, and is indeed never sponsored in Scripture (lest Clirus misconstrue Scripture to read what she wants it to). The gospel of Clirus tells us that all values extrinsic to Scripture are false values. In a twist of irony, many of Clirus' own values lack Scriptural foundation.

As I remarked earlier, Clirus is unable or otherwise unwilling to transcend the stereotypical representations that she has developed as a 'map' with which to catergorize the world. Even when her errors are illuminated (such as her complete misunderstanding of evolutionary theory) she will not yield, and will instead relentlessly (or as in case of her erroneous view of evolution, deliberately) persist. She obstinately refuses to accomodate information that would modify a poorly founded schema, rather she discards that information altogether, perhaps because it threatens opinions that she has an immense emotional connection with. Clirus cannot, not even for a moment, transcend her own opinion to glance reflectively at it through an inquisitive, detached and critical lens. Indeed, it seems that we are the ones doing it for her.
 
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jameseb

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Giving to the poor is evil, if the money is used by the poor to continue to buy inappropriate contentography, sex, drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, etc.


I'm arriving a little late to this discussion, and do not wish to peruse the previous pages so pardon me if this has already been discussed - are you suggesting that socialism is "evil" because you believe the majority of those who benefit from it are using the financial assistance for the things you mention above?
 
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TheReasoner

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I'm arriving a little late to this discussion, and do not wish to peruse the previous pages so pardon me if this has already been discussed - are you suggesting that socialism is "evil" because you believe the majority of those who benefit from it are using the financial assistance for the things you mention above?

Which, I hope you realize, reveals that Clirus does not know what socialism really is. I love the way hsi makes up completely new definitions for well established and defined terms and then attacks that with blind fervor.
 
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clirus

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I'm arriving a little late to this discussion, and do not wish to peruse the previous pages so pardon me if this has already been discussed - are you suggesting that socialism is "evil" because you believe the majority of those who benefit from it are using the financial assistance for the things you mention above?

Yes
 
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clirus

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But Clirus, are you yourself not guilty of the sin of pride when you lift up not the teachings of Christ and the bible but your own subjectively derived opinions as God's word? Many many people here have shown how you fall short with serious and very heavy biblical backing. You have repeatedly dismissed this and repeated your proud position, never relenting.
Could it not indeed be said that by elevating your own views to the position God's truth should hold you are in fact committing a light version of the same sin satan was thrown out of heaven for? By this I mean to ask: Since you often substitute God's word with your own opinion - as has been demonstrated to be a fact - are you not in effect de-throning God and putting yourself in His place? And isn't the devil's attempt at this the sin that got him thrown out of heaven?
We're likely all guilty of that sin to some extent. Humans are by nature proud and selfish beings. What makes it bad is when you persist in this sin despite it being pointed out to you as a sin in a no-nonsense way by many fellow believers.

You say you respect and love God. Fantastic! You say you want to distance yourself from the rest of the world and 'committing to follow the commandments and doctrines of the Bible" - good. So why don't you? You dismiss believers who want to follow Christ's teachings of love as 'atheists' and 'socialists' and continue to tell us that our love for the least among us is incompatible with Christianity. This is extremely unbiblical Clirus. Not at ALL congruent with Christ's teachings.

I state my opinion and you define it as wrong, then you state your opinion and define it as right.
 
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