sin, responsibility, complete predestination

[lutherangerman]

Hi there,

am I correct to presume that calvinism says that everything is predestined, including our sins?

If yes, my question is, how can then the bible make sense, how can God make sense?

Why should God hold us responsible for anything when even our sins came about through Him? Isn't that a little mad?

How can our love have any value if God coerces us into it? What value can we have at all?

In a way, the calvinistic concepts of these things can seem comforting. If we say, everything happens by God's decree, then even our failures are excused in the end, for God willed them to happen too. But then we have a religion of flawlessness, for we cannot even make mistakes and regret them and change our ways in any meaningful sense of the word.

Absurdity beckons!

 

[mlqurgw]

Hi there,

am I correct to presume that calvinism says that everything is predestined, including our sins?

If yes, my question is, how can then the bible make sense, how can God make sense?

Why should God hold us responsible for anything when even our sins came about through Him? Isn't that a little mad?

How can our love have any value if God coerces us into it? What value can we have at all?

In a way, the calvinistic concepts of these things can seem comforting. If we say, everything happens by God's decree, then even our failures are excused in the end, for God willed them to happen too. But then we have a religion of flawlessness, for we cannot even make mistakes and regret them and change our ways in any meaningful sense of the word.

Absurdity beckons!

Subtle robot argument. Man does what he wants to, including running to every sin inmaginable, according to the prefect purpose and plan of God. Trying to blame God for the sin of man is the absurdity. Yes God purposed sin but man did exactly what he desired. God rules and overules the desire of man to accomnplish His perfect purpose of grace to His elect. If the Bible does not back up this statement then we are all in our sin and God is not God.

 

[lutherangerman]

Well when God purposed or planned for man to sin, how can sin be blamed on man? That's what I don't get. Was man supposed to resist God?

 

[mlqurgw]

Well when God purposed or planned for man to sin, how can sin be blamed on man? That's what I don't get. Was man supposed to resist God?

Because man did exactly as he wanted to against the command of God. The Scriptures never say that Adam was deceived. He went into sin knowing full well what he was doing.

 

[lutherangerman]

Oh my. If God predestined Adam to know full well what he was doing, and then to do it in the truth, there's still no blame on Adam.

Sure, God allowed sin to happen. But I don't get from where you draw the belief that God wanted sin to happen and directed events so that it would come to pass.

 

[mlqurgw]

Oh my. If God predestined Adam to know full well what he was doing, and then to do it in the truth, there's still no blame on Adam.

Sure, God allowed sin to happen. But I don't get from where you draw the belief that God wanted sin to happen and directed events so that it would come to pass.

First of all the Scriptures clearly tell us that Adam wasn't deceived, 1Tim. 2:14. Second the Scriptures clearly tell us that several things that were evil were done exactly according to the will of God and intended for good by God. Man did exactly according to his evil will and God intended it for good. Joseph tells us plainly in Gen. 45:4-8, 50:20. Also Peter makes it very plain in Acts 2:22-23 that though men did exactly as their evil will desired in killing the Son of God it was done according to the purpose and plan of God. Those are 2 of the most plain examples and to deny it is to deny the Scriptures. Now as to a logical reason for God determining for sin to enter into the world. Would we know anything of the mercy of God if man had not sinned? The Scriptures tell us that the angels know nothing of the mercy of God except as they see it in the church. Eph. 3:9-11, 1Pet. 1:10-12.

 

[Anoetos]

Creatures behave according to their natures. Dogs behave like dogs and cats like cats.

And sinners behave like sinners; i.e. they sin.

And God ordains this. He does not approve it and he is not the author of it. It comes from the depraved nature of men, but he knows it will happen, he is not surprised by it and when it happens it does so within his will because nothing occurs outside that will.

If God is eternal, how can there be a disconnect between his knowledge and his will?

 

[lutherangerman]

Ok, I think I can accept it so far ... although with the reservation that it cannot be generalized. Actually it makes my head hurt. I just can't wrap my head around some of the sins I've done being caused by God for the sake of some good. I don't know the good of watching pornography, I still labor from the noetic effects of that sin.

As for the example of Jesus' sacrifice being the result of sin but also the result of God's plan and purposes ... well, didn't Jesus say, when the pharisees got him, that this would be the hour where darkness reigns? Also, he prayed about the pain of being betrayed by a friend (Judas). What I don't get is how there can be any sincerity in God if He wills us to sin. I mean, how can Jesus grieve over the sin of Judas if Jesus willed that sin? I can see God allowing sin to happen, but actually causing it is what I can't accept.

 

[Anoetos]

Again: God does not "cause us to to sin". We sin because we're sinners. He doesn't have to cause us to do it, it's the way our wills are bent.

 

[mlqurgw]

Ok, I think I can accept it so far ... although with the reservation that it cannot be generalized. Actually it makes my head hurt. I just can't wrap my head around some of the sins I've done being caused by God for the sake of some good. I don't know the good of watching pornography, I still labor from the noetic effects of that sin.

As for the example of Jesus' sacrifice being the result of sin but also the result of God's plan and purposes ... well, didn't Jesus say, when the pharisees got him, that this would be the hour where darkness reigns? Also, he prayed about the pain of being betrayed by a friend (Judas). What I don't get is how there can be any sincerity in God if He wills us to sin. I mean, how can Jesus grieve over the sin of Judas if Jesus willed that sin? I can see God allowing sin to happen, but actually causing it is what I can't accept.

It isn't necessary that you wrap your head around it. There are many things in the Scriptures that I don't understand but I am content to hold firmly to what I do and seek light in the rest. Now I believe it would be best if you just forget the idea of God causing sin to happen. That is like trying to blame God for our rebellion. The Scriptures nowhere teach that. Psalm 75:10 tells us that the wrath of man shall praise God and the remainder of wrath He shall restrain. Prov. 16:9 tells us that a man's heart devises his way but the Lord directs his steps. What God doesn't use to the good of His people and the glory of His name He overrules. God is absolutely sovereign and man is absolutely responsible for his sin. That is the teaching of the Scriptures whether we can understand and reconcile it or not. God's sovereignty does not make us robots and man's responsibility does not make God less sovereign. Man does what he desires according to his will and God does exactly as He intends according to His will. Whose will do you think is greater? No man will be able to throw his fist up at God and say, as Adam tried, it is your fault I am a sinner. When Adam was questioned by God his answer was "that woman You gave me, she gave me of the tree and I did eat." Gen. 3:12 Adam tried to blame both God and the woman but not himself. That has been the way of man since that time. We want to blame everybody but ourselves for our depravity, including God, but it didn't fly then and will not fly now. Man sins because he wants to and as the Scriptures say he drinks iniquity like water. Job. 15:16 Instead of trying to accuse God, which is what the argument is, put the blame on who it belongs and give God the glory for His sovereign rule over man.

 

[lutherangerman]

Well ok bro, you argue from sovereignity. But isn't there ample evidence in the scriptures where God waits for us to decide ourselves for Him? Such as when Jesus weeps over the people of Jerusalem? In what way is it somehow improper for God to wait for our decisions? Doesn't this waiting also, subtly, add to His glory? There is glory in love and consideration of the inferior, such as we are, and isn't that what Christ demonstrated? Isn't that the point which makes salvation possible even for terrible sinners? God's quest for glory and the human need for salvation can meet each other and fulfill each other perfectly. Personally, I think scripture teaches that we are gifts of God the Father to Jesus, sort of like a crowning gift, and one day Jesus will gift the saved back to the Father. There doubtlessly is some predestination and some of what man must bring forth. From personal experience I would say that, for example, humility is something we must bring ... although it can also be given to us. Same with faith. Sometimes we bring it up on our own, sometimes God causes it, but even when God causes it we must still do the right things and avoid foolishness. That's what happened to me, I prayed to Jesus to give me faith when I had too little, and He gave it to me, but I still had to trust this gift. And that is what the bible demands when it says we shall have faith in faith.

 

[Apeleutheros]

I've always loved this quote from Spurgeon concerning
predestination and mans responsibility:

"That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that every-thing is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring"

-Charles H. Spurgeon

 

[Anoetos]

Well ok bro, you argue from sovereignity. But isn't there ample evidence in the scriptures where God waits for us to decide ourselves for Him?

No, but if you think there are please show us.

Such as when Jesus weeps over the people of Jerusalem?

This is a prophetic reference to the stubbornness of Israel. In the analogy, Jerusalem is still the chicks of the mother hen (God), He is not waiting for them to be in covenant with him, they already are. He is calling them to obedience within that covenant and expressing frustration over their stubbornness.

In what way is it somehow improper for God to wait for our decisions?

God doesn't wait for anything, for him, everything is now. If he is eternal, it must be so.

That's what happened to me, I prayed to Jesus to give me faith when I had too little, and He gave it to me, but I still had to trust this gift. And that is what the bible demands when it says we shall have faith in faith.

This is fascinating and very Calvinistic: first God regenerates you, then you believe because that faith has been given to you.

Not all have this faith because they are not all regenerated.

But when God gives a man a new heart, he is born again and he believes. Now, within his experience it may be that it seems to him that he asked for faith and God gave it to him upon his request. But given the nature of God and grace, what happened was that regeneration made the man feel his need for faith, which faith God has given him, but which he now, being reborn, desires to nourish and grow.

 

[lutherangerman]

Well, perhaps so that you understand me, I must explain myself, because my unbelief in complete predestination (and election) simply stems from a visitation I had by Christ. It happened in a time when I was worn out and scared tired by trouble with demons and came to a point where I thought I could hold God responsible and said something to the effect that I asked God why are there demons and devils, man cannot bear it. Then Jesus came to me, and spoke with me. He said, among other things, that my salvation would be decided in the following weeks and that I should think of how my (christian) mother would feel if I would go to hell. I asked Jesus if I could believe in Him, and He said, yes, but it would have to come from the heart. I took this serious and in the following weeks read much in the bible and thought of grace, the need to repent, humility, faith, and so forth, the usual christian approach. Well, some months later I got baptized and received the Holy Spirit in a (to me) pretty awesome way, amongst other things I saw a big cross move into me.

Since then I believe that God simply watches us, how we treat the Gospel, the church, other christians, and decides our salvation on a case-by-case basis. So, for example, someone who blasphemes would either be met with God's wrath in the form of rebuke, and then salvation, or salvation straight away. It's simply what the bible teaches, who believes in Jesus' resurrection and who confesses that He is Lord shall be saved. But God in the same time does not turn a blind eye to our sin and if we don't repent sincerely or try to mistreat God bad stuff can happen to us including not being elected to salvation.

This led me, in time, to believe in a mix of predestination and free will, and this, I think, does justice to the biblical record. For example, I think that our free will is certainly limited and much sin can diminish our free will. However, we can see our free will and learn to decide ourselves for God all the time, in all things. Predestination, on the other hand, is something you can't see but which we draw on for comfort mostly. It's kinda nice to see the orderly and wise hand of God in things. I've also learned to appreciate God's wrath and anger ... for example, one time I was seduced by a deception from the devil, and suddenly I heard a strong, authorative voice say "Should you not honor the one who gave you your life?". If you go in God's direction, you can still fall in all kinds of bad stuff which God hates, but still we have to seek God and follow Him, and His anger on our sin and hate for that sin will help us with rebukes. It's certainly better than being condemned and having to go to hell.

I mean, I know I don't understand this mystery so much better than anyone else, but I don't want to believe that God predestines (before the person is born) someone to suffer eternally in hell. It's really only our fault if this happens. I don't want to believe in something like this if it's not true, fearing the God of love whom I don't want to disappoint or blaspheme.

 

[Epiphoskei]

I don't want to believe that God predestines (before the person is born) someone to suffer eternally in hell. It's really only our fault if this happens.

If I'm following what you've said so far, you can't see how God can predestine and man be responsible for his own sins. If that's so, the above shouldn't be a hiderance. Since we are affirming both that God predestines and that man is responsible, one cannot object that God cannot predestine because man is responsible. You're getting hung up on incompatabilism, the belief that those two things cannot coexist, and when you create scenerios in your mind about people being predestined and going to hell, the moral problems that would create under incompatableism are being applied to compatiblism.

I'll agree this can be a difficult problem for those coming out of a theologically libertarian position; it gave me trouble for several years. For me, this stopped being a problem when I came to believe that human actions must always be in agreement with our natures, and as such, the one who created our natures determines how we act. We are still guilty because the source of our sin was wholly our own nature. "I made me do it" isn't really a good excuse.

 

[Anoetos]

I am amazed by your experience and I rejoice with you in its truth.

But it was YOUR experience, it isn't everyones and it is not even the measure of a hypothetical ideal of conversion, for that we have to look to Scripture and there at least it is clear that God is an electing God who chooses whom he will harden and whom he will save.

 

[oscar615]

I mean, I know I don't understand this mystery so much better than anyone else, but I don't want to believe that God predestines (before the person is born) someone to suffer eternally in hell. It's really only our fault if this happens. I don't want to believe in something like this if it's not true, fearing the God of love whom I don't want to disappoint or blaspheme.

I think that you may be thinking about God's grace and mercy from the wrong direction. Someone chooses to follow him and he extends grace and mercy.

You say you can't think of "a God that would predestine people to hell." That is a you to him direction. He does not have to choose to send people to hell. We ALL are going to hell already. He doesn't have to do a thing and we still go to hell. You need to look at it in a him to you direction.

You could think of it like this. All of us are going to hell. That is the state we are born in. We are all sinners, from birth, and therefore going to hell. Agreed? God decides to give you mercy. He decides to save you. He changes your heart. He gives you faith and repentance. You believe and follow Him. What can be more graceful than to extend mercy to someone that does not deserve it, Someone who doesn't even want it? He does it because he he loves you. He chooses to give you life. He predestined you to life. You are special and loved. You must be because he chose to give you life rather than leaving you in your death.

Now as far as you choosing to follow him, that is impossible. All over the scriptures it talks about how people love their sin. It is their nature. It speaks of being of enmity with God. It speaks of the things of God being foolishness to the natural man. It speaks of people being dead spiritually, dead in their sins. People intending sin continually. Do these sound like the attributes of something that could choose to follow God? Nope. Before he made you alive you were dead, an enemy of God, hated God, those things were foolish. No one chooses God. We run from God. Now he changes your heart so his things are not foolish any more and you follow him. You no longer hate the things of God. They are not foolishness. They are the things of life.

I have heard the analogy of someone drowning and he pulls them out at the last moment. But that is incorrect. It is someone who has already drown, they are dead in the water. You can do nothing about it, you cannot save yourself. You are dead. Then he comes along and breathes new life into what once was dead.

 

[heymikey80]

Romans 9:19ff. What do you think of the question and its answer?

On your current view, how does the Bible teach God's response to belief in Romans 9:16?

If we insert a libertarian view of responsibility, inevitably we'll encounter paradoxes over deterministic views of reality.