Mormonism.

[Dominic Korozya]

Continued...

I believe is is a 100% hoax that contains absolutely no truth other than what it copied from Christianity.

The Jews feel the same way about christians.

Examining Mormonism is a waste of time that could better be used by studying Christianity.

I fully understand christianity.

 

[Dark_Lite]

wat

For those of you going "wat," this is a continuation of a thread in OBOB that started to turn into a debate: Mormonism - Christian Forums
​

 

[JeffShott]

Dominic, which Christianity do you fully understand? I ask this because President and "Prophet" of the LDS Church, Mr. Hinkley states that Mormons do not believe in the same Messiah as all other Christians:

"No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages." (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7).

This is certainly true, for Joseph Smith Jr. claimed to be a better Church leader than Yeshua Himself, which cannot be true, for Yeshua is perfect. See here:

"God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil--all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . " (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409)

 

[Dominic Korozya]

Dominic, which Christianity do you fully understand? I ask this because President and "Prophet" of the LDS Church, Mr. Hinkley states that Mormons do not believe in the same Messiah as all other Christians:

"No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages." (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7).

This is certainly true, for Joseph Smith Jr. claimed to be a better Church leader than Yeshua Himself, which cannot be true, for Yeshua is perfect. See here:

"God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil--all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . " (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409)

I am Catholic, believe it or not.

I am fully aware of the LDS view on Jesus Christ.

 

[JeffShott]

I am Catholic, believe it or not.

I am fully aware of the LDS view on Jesus Christ.

Yes, I know about your "50% Mormon, 50% Catholic" situation.
What I need to know, before I go any further (I appear to have offended you), is this:

What beliefs of Rome, and of Utah do you hold?

 

[BarryK]

I am Catholic, believe it or not.

I am fully aware of the LDS view on Jesus Christ.

are you fully aware of the L.D.S. view of the Catholic Church?

 

[BarryK]

are you fully aware of the L.D.S. view of the Catholic Church?

(this is from one of my posts from the "mormons, explain to me why you will not be Catholic" thread)

well Obi, while there may be no "official" response, many of your "prophets" "apostles" Presidents, "elders" etc have gone on record accusing our Catholic breatherens ( and all of us christians) of all sorts of things, the foremonst of which is being part of Babaylon, staright from the pit of hell and agents satan

Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'harlot of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent"
- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 255

"Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century."
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167

"</B>Christians—those poor, miserable priests brother Brigham was speaking about—some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth</B>, and at the same time preaching righteousness to the children of men. The poor devils, they could not get up here and preach an oral discourse, to save themselves from hell; they are preaching their fathers' sermons —preaching sermons that were written a hundred years before they were born. ...You may get a Methodist priest to pour water on you, or sprinkle it on you, and baptize you face foremost, or lay you down the other way, and whatever mode you please, and you will be damned with your priest."
- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, 5:89

"After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon"
- Apostle George Q. Cannon said, Gospel Truth, p.324

"...all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels."
- Prophet Joseph Smith , The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith Jr., editor, vol.1, no.4, p.60

 

[Dominic Korozya]

Yes, I know about your "50% Mormon, 50% Catholic" situation.
What I need to know, before I go any further (I appear to have offended you), is this:

Rest assured JeffShot, you have not offended me.

What beliefs of Rome,

Everything.

and of Utah do you hold

That perhaps Joseph Smiths revelations were actually inspired.

are you fully aware of the L.D.S. view of the Catholic Church?

Elaborate.

 

[JeffShott]

I'm not quite sure how you can believe 100% of the teachings of the Catholic Church, yet still believe in Joseph Smith's writings, as they contradict each other. Joseph Smith said there are many gods, that Yahweh was once a human, and denied the Trinity (among other things).

 

[Dominic Korozya]

(this is from one of my posts from the "mormons, explain to me why you will not be Catholic" thread)

well Obi, while there may be no "official" response, many of your "prophets" "apostles" Presidents, "elders" etc have gone on record accusing our Catholic breatherens ( and all of us christians) of all sorts of things, the foremonst of which is being part of Babaylon, staright from the pit of hell and agents satan

Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'harlot of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent"
- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 255

"Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century."
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167

"</B>Christians—those poor, miserable priests brother Brigham was speaking about—some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth</B>, and at the same time preaching righteousness to the children of men. The poor devils, they could not get up here and preach an oral discourse, to save themselves from hell; they are preaching their fathers' sermons —preaching sermons that were written a hundred years before they were born. ...You may get a Methodist priest to pour water on you, or sprinkle it on you, and baptize you face foremost, or lay you down the other way, and whatever mode you please, and you will be damned with your priest."
- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, 5:89

"After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon"
- Apostle George Q. Cannon said, Gospel Truth, p.324

"...all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels."
- Prophet Joseph Smith , The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith Jr., editor, vol.1, no.4, p.60

So this is what you were talking about. It sounds very extreme doesn't it, yet the LDS church teaches that if you follow what you believe to be good, what you believe to be the word of God, then surely you will not be damned.

There are three different levels of heaven, non-mormons just won't enter the highest level.

 

[Dominic Korozya]

I'm not quite sure how you can believe 100% of the teachings of the Catholic Church, yet still believe in Joseph Smith's writings, as they contradict each other. Joseph Smith said there are many gods, that Yahweh was once a human, and denied the Trinity (among other things).

I just have a feeling that his revelations could be inspired, not that they are but just that they could be.

About God being human, perhaps.

 

[xenic101]

There are three different levels of heaven, non-mormons just won't enter the highest level.

They could. Mormons don't restrict accepting the gospel and the necessary ordinances to this life.

 

[JeffShott]

I just have a feeling that his revelations could be inspired, not that they are but just that they could be.

About God being human, perhaps.

Funny, because Joseph Smith couldn't even keep track of his own revelations. Doesn't he have like 3 different accounts of when the angel first came to him?

 

[Dominic Korozya]

They could. Mormons don't restrict accepting the gospel and the necessary ordinances to this life.

This is true, mormonism does teach this.

Funny, because Joseph Smith couldn't even keep track of his own revelations. Doesn't he have like 3 different accounts of when the angel first came to him?

He has a total of four books if you exclude the book of mormon.

 

[JeffShott]

He has a total of four books if you exclude the book of mormon.

I was speaking of the fact that he wrote multiple varying accounts of his "first vision".

 

[xenic101]

Funny, because Joseph Smith couldn't even keep track of his own revelations. Doesn't he have like 3 different accounts of when the angel first came to him?

There are several accounts of the First Vision recorded at different times and for different purposes to different people. The variations of the accounts are not an issue when viewed in context. The Gospels tell 4 versions of Jesus' life which don't completely agree, however they are easily enough harmonized. The same is true of Josephs accounts of the First Vision.

There are also many recorded prophecies which 'evolved' as Joseph gained in understanding what had been revealed to him, and sought to record that information. Again, this does not pose a problem when viewed in context, and gives a fascinating view of how the Lord deals with his people though a prophet, beyond the scant record we have of the prophets in the Bible.

 

[JeffShott]

If Mormon teachings were divinely inspired, they wouldn't contradict themselves and the Bible -- The Book of Mormon contradicts ITSELF and the Bible!

 

[xenic101]

If Mormon teachings were divinely inspired, they wouldn't contradict themselves and the Bible -- The Book of Mormon contradicts ITSELF and the Bible!

Regrettably, that site seems to misrepresent every point of Mormon teaching it claims to address. An understanding of LDS teaching is consistent with the Bible and within the standard works.

 

[JeffShott]

I don't know about you, but this seems like a pretty blatant contradiction:

"I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told. Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 51).

"[20] But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." (Matthew 1:20, KJV)

----------------

Also, how can Mormon prophets contradict each other? Brigham Young says that all who do not practice polygamy are damned, yet another President "prophesied" the exact opposite (because Utah needed to become a state).

 

[xenic101]

I don't know about you, but this seems like a pretty blatant contradiction:

"I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told. Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 51).

"[20] But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." (Matthew 1:20, KJV)

Joseph was addressing the popular teaching at the time that Jesus was literally begotten by the Holy Ghost in the classical manner. We don't know the details of Jesus' conception, other than that he is God the Father's literal son, and that the Holy Ghost attended Mary. The contradiction only comes from wild speculation concerning what should be the most sacred of events and does not exist with (again this word) an understanding of what is being said.
----------------

Also, how can Mormon prophets contradict each other? Brigham Young says that all who do not practice polygamy are damned, yet another President "prophesied" the exact opposite (because Utah needed to become a state).

Without the actual quote of Brigham's to reference, I would have to speculate, though I have no doubt he said it, he said a great many things, and was very direct and blunt with everything. There were 2 main way polygamy was entered into, revelation or need. Brigham very much believed in an obligation to care for the poor and widows. A great number of polygamous marriages were of widows who would have been without a household at that time. Many others were intended to seal and unite the Lords people together. Regardless of the reason, it was a commandment, and not one most people relished. Between one wife being more than enough, and outside derision, there were many people skirting this 'commandment' while maintaining faithfulness to the rest. So Brigham was most surely addressing those people, who had an 'obligation' they were not fulfilling, and not a general statement concerning salvation.

And the "other President" did not prophecy the exact opposite. The Lord rescinded the commandment through a revelation. Though since you brought it up, Brigham did state that he did not believe polygamy would be a lasting commandment, and often made known his desire that it would be lifted to ease the problems it caused.