Can a Christian be a Freemason???

[Rev Wayne]

To wayseer,
The Biblical testimony is clear who is God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, not sure Freemasons who are believers in other gods are.

Yes, it's "clear," all right. But what is "clear" about it is just as wayseer said. The very names of God are involved in it. The "El" of the Old Testament is a derivative of "El" as used in the region to refer to quite a variety of gods. The most direct one, of course, is the God of Abram, who spoke to him in his home country, which was a part of what was later known, at various times, as Assyria and Babylon. It is the same "El" that later was transformed into "Elohim," "El-Elyon," and various other forms as found in the OT. "El" was used, in various other derivations of the word, in Babylon, as well as in many of the Canaanite religions. It also has the same derivation as "Allah," the god of Islam.

So like it or not, yes there are various pagan connections to the biblical traditions.

 

[O.F.F.]

Wayne, you can go to whatever painstaking lengths you wish to discredit the testimony of your own Masonic brethren, but their testimony still stands in the Christian case against Freemasonry.

And anyway, if your sources are supposed to be so knowledgeable, how is it your list is composed of Buck, a laughing-stock in Masonry

Oh really? Then how do you reconcile that statement, and the one you got from masonicinfo.com, with this one:

Few names are more widely known in our Fraternity, and none more highly honored, than that of Dr. J.D. Buck...

There is no need to add that Dr. Buck was an active and influential member of every Rite of our historic Order, holding the highest rank both in the esteem of his Brethren and in the gift of the fraternity --including the honorary Thirty-Third Degree of the Scottish Rite in its Northern Jurisdiction. Indeed, he was a recognized leader of a definite school of Masonic thought and propaganda;...

A noble and true man, kindly and brotherly, he will be missed in the gracious circle which he adorned, and his name will be spoken with reverence and gratitude wherever Masons meet upon the Level and part upon the Square.

J. D. Buck - A Militant Mason by Bro. Joseph Fort Newton, 33° Source: The Builder February 1917

So are you now going to run to masonicinfo.com to see how you can discredit Joseph Fort Newton too? Why don't you, since we are talking about the link between Freemasonry and the Ancient Pagan Mysteries, of which Newton himself supported.

Masonry stands in this tradition; and if we may not say that it is historically related to the great ancient orders, it is their spiritual descendant, and renders much the same ministry to our age which the Mysteries rendered to the olden world.

The Builders, by Joseph Fort Newton, [1914], page 53

No wonder he spoke so highly of J. D. Buck.

Have you ever managed to locate Steinmetz's Masonic credentials? I submit that not only does he have none...

Oh really? If not, then please explain why was his work published by the world's most well-known Masonic publishing house in the history of Freemasonry.

Now observe what a Masonic author who DOES have some credibility has to say on the matter

Oh really? If S. Brent Morris has so much Masonic credibility, then why do you suppose the very same Masonic website where you captured his article, also features George H. Steinmetz's Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning?

And, while it's completely impossible for you and Ed King (masonicinfo.com) to legitimately discredit any regular Grand Lodge's position on the matter, why haven't you 'explained away' W.L. Wilmshurst, William Hutchinson, Henry C. Clausen 33°, and Rex R. Hutchens 32°? Surely they all have equally as much Masonic credibility as S. Brent Morris.

More importantly, if these Masons have no credibility at all, and you claim they are not so knowledgeable, and "have died the quiet death they deserved" as Morris claims; then how can you explain the fact that many of their books which speak to the Masonic connection with the Ancient Mysteries continues, to this very day, to be recommended reading material in virtually every Grand Lodge Masonic library in North America; and even the United Grand Lodge of England? Time will not permit me to list every Grand Lodge library available on the Internet, but readers will get the point.

From the library of the Grand Lodge of Iowa:

The Builders by Joseph Fort Newton
The Spirit of Masonry by William Hutchinson
Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning by George H. Steinmetz
The Lost Keys of Freemasonry by Manly P. Hall

From the library of the Grand Lodge of Ohio:

The Builders by Joseph Fort Newton
Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning by George H. Steinmetz
The Meaning of Masonry by W. L. Wilmhurst
Morals & Dogma by Albert Pike
The Spirit of Masonry by William Hutchinson

From the library of the Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania:

Symbolism or Mystic Masonry by J.D. Buck
The Builders by Joseph Fort Newton
Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning by George H. Steinmetz
The Meaning of Masonry by W. L. Wilmhurst
The Spirit of Masonry by William Hutchinson
Morals & Dogma by Albert Pike
The Lost Keys of Freemasonry by Manly P. Hall
Symbolism of Freemasonry by Albert G. Mackey
The Mysticism of Masonry by R. Swinburne Clymer

From the library of the Grand Lodge of California:

Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning by George H. Steinmetz
The Meaning of Masonry by W. L. Wilmhurst
The Builders by Joseph Fort Newton

From the library of the Grand Lodge of New York:

The Builders by Joseph Fort Newton
Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning by George Harold Steinmetz
The Meaning of Masonry by Walter Leslie Wilmshurst
The Lost Keys of Freemasonry by Manly P. Hall

From the library of the Grand Lodge of Texas:

Symbolism or Mystic Masonry by J.D. Buck
Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning George H. Steinmetz
The Builders by Joseph Fort Newton
The Spirit of Masonry by William Hutchinson
Morals & Dogma by Albert Pike
The Lost Keys of Freemasonry by Manly P. Hall
Symbolism of Freemasonry by Albert G. Mackey
A Bridge to Light by Rex R. Hutchens, 32°

From the library of Grand Lodge of British Columbia and Yucon:

Symbolism or Mystic Masonry by J.D. Buck
Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning George H. Steinmetz
The Builders by Joseph Fort Newton
The Spirit of Masonry by William Hutchinson
Morals & Dogma by Albert Pike
The Lost Keys of Freemasonry by Manly P. Hall
Symbolism of Freemasonry by Albert G. Mackey
A Bridge to Light by Rex R. Hutchens, 32°

From the library of the Grand Lodge of Ontario:

Symbolism or Mystic Masonry by J.D. Buck
The Mysticism of Masonry by R. Swinburne Clymer
Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning George H. Steinmetz
The Builders by Joseph Fort Newton
The Spirit of Masonry by William Hutchinson
Morals & Dogma by Albert Pike
The Lost Keys of Freemasonry by Manly P. Hall
Symbolism of Freemasonry by Albert G. Mackey

From the library of the Scottish Rite Supreme Council, 33° Masons:

Your Amazing Mystic Powers by Henry C. Clausen, 33°
A Bridge to Light by Rex R. Hutchens, 32°
Symbolism or Mystic Masonry by J.D. Buck
Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning by George H. Steinmetz
The Meaning of Masonry by W. L. Wilmhurst
The Spirit of Masonry by William Hutchinson
Morals & Dogma by Albert Pike
The Lost Keys of Freemasonry by Manly P. Hall
Symbolism of Freemasonry by Albert G. Mackey
The Mysticism of Masonry by R. Swinburne Clymer

Finally, from the library of the United Grand Lodge of England:

Your Amazing Mystic Powers by Henry C. Clausen, 33°
A Bridge to Light by Rex R. Hutchens, 32°
Symbolism or Mystic Masonry by J.D. Buck
Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning by George H. Steinmetz
The Meaning of Masonry by W. L. Wilmhurst
The Spirit of Masonry by William Hutchinson
Morals & Dogma by Albert Pike
The Lost Keys of Freemasonry by Manly P. Hall
Symbolism of Freemasonry by Albert G. Mackey

So Wayne, you can try to distract readers by resorting to an ad hominem attack to discredit me all you want. It won't change the fact that according to the highest Masonic authorities (Grand Lodges), THESE Masonic books play a large part in the Masonic education process. And, since they are so highly recommended, THESE books along with others like them, collectively speak for Freemasonry. Your denial of these facts merely speaks to your own dishonesty.

And if I were you, I'd be careful about the degree to which you discredit your eminent Masonic brethren; even S. Brent Morris knows better than to do that. Although it did not change his position on the Masonic connection to the Ancient Mysteries, apparently it got him in a lot of trouble with the leaders of the Craft.

When I served as book review editor of the Scottish Rite Journal from 1989 to 1996, I didn’t receive much correspondence from readers. One thing, however, was guaranteed always to produce a few letters: criticize Albert Pike or Albert Mackey. . ., many Masons have all but deified them and refuse to believe they could have made any mistake. . .Many today feel that only a heretic could challenge anything they wrote. My comments in “The Letter G” (The Scottish Rite Journal, Aug. 1997) have produced a similar response.

Let me begin with a disclaimer: Albert Pike and Albert Mackey were geniuses. They researched and wrote about Freemasonry at a time when there was virtually no reliable historical material available. They did the best they could with what they had, and they did very well indeed. Their administrative skills alone, especially those of Pike, expanded the Scottish Rite Southern Jurisdiction and created the organization that has grown so successfully into our modern fraternity today. We owe each of them a great debt of gratitude.

I also owe them apologies in referring to their theories as “tall tales,” which was hyperbole on my part. . . It is not “political correctness” to differ with them or to insist that their conclusions be reexamined in the light of the best historical evidence.

PIKE, MACKEY AND THE ANCIENT MYSTERIES by S. BRENT MORRIS, 33°

 

[Rev Wayne]

Wayne, perhaps you don't subscribe to the theory, but if you were honest about it, this should be enough to make you sick, and convince any devoted Christian to walk away from Freemasonry.
​

Yes it should do.

There is a lot that goes on, supposedly in the name of "Christianity," that I do not agree with. The Jesus Seminar and its ideas of the resurrection as metaphor, would be one of them. The idea that the gospel preached by Jesus was very different from the one we have in our Bible, and that Paul "hijacked" the gospel message, would be another.

By your logic, then, if we are "honest" about it, this should make us sick, and we should walk away from Christianity because of it?

I doubt you'd agree. But you need to recognize that just as these things are not representative of mainstream Christianity--not even close, the things being presented about Masonry's fancied origins in the mysteries, are also not even close to being representative of mainstream Masonry. In fact, as just shown in regard to what Mike posted, a lot of what gets passed off as "Masonry" is not even connected, but is derived from pseudo-Masonic groups. Yet the principle as it applies to Christianity, gets applied with a totally different outcome in regard to Masonry--the old double standard rearing its head once again.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Wayne, you can go to whatever painstaking lengths you wish to discredit the testimony of your own Masonic brethren, but their testimony still stands in the Christian case against Freemasonry.



Oh really? Then how do you reconcile that statement, and the one you got from masonicinfo.com, with this one:



No wonder he spoke so highly of J. D. Buck.



Oh really? If not, then please explain why was his work published by the world's most well-known Masonic publishing house in the history of Freemasonry.



Oh really? If S. Brent Morris has so much Masonic credibility, then why do you suppose the very same Masonic website where you captured his article, also features George H. Steinmetz's Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning?

And, while it's completely impossible for you and Ed King (masonicinfo.com) to legitimately discredit any regular Grand Lodge's position on the matter, why haven't you 'explained away' W.L. Wilmshurst, William Hutchinson, Henry C. Clausen 33°, and Rex R. Hutchens 32°? Surely they all have equally as much Masonic credibility as S. Brent Morris.

More importantly, if these Masons have no credibility at all, and you claim they are not so knowledgeable, and "have died the quiet death they deserved" as Morris claims; then how can you explain the fact that many of their books which speak to the Masonic connection with the Ancient Mysteries continues, to this very day, to be recommended reading material in virtually every Grand Lodge Masonic library in North America; and even the United Grand Lodge of England? Time will not permit me to list every Grand Lodge library available on the Internet, but readers will get the point.

From the library of the Grand Lodge of Iowa:

The Builders by Joseph Fort Newton
The Spirit of Masonry by William Hutchinson
Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning by George H. Steinmetz
The Lost Keys of Freemasonry by Manly P. Hall

From the library of the Grand Lodge of Ohio:

The Builders by Joseph Fort Newton
Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning by George H. Steinmetz
The Meaning of Masonry by W. L. Wilmhurst
Morals & Dogma by Albert Pike
The Spirit of Masonry by William Hutchinson

From the library of the Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania:

Symbolism or Mystic Masonry by J.D. Buck
The Builders by Joseph Fort Newton
Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning by George H. Steinmetz
The Meaning of Masonry by W. L. Wilmhurst
The Spirit of Masonry by William Hutchinson
Morals & Dogma by Albert Pike
The Lost Keys of Freemasonry by Manly P. Hall
Symbolism of Freemasonry by Albert G. Mackey
The Mysticism of Masonry by R. Swinburne Clymer

From the library of the Grand Lodge of California:

Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning by George H. Steinmetz
The Meaning of Masonry by W. L. Wilmhurst
The Builders by Joseph Fort Newton

From the library of the Grand Lodge of New York:

The Builders by Joseph Fort Newton
Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning by George Harold Steinmetz
The Meaning of Masonry by Walter Leslie Wilmshurst
The Lost Keys of Freemasonry by Manly P. Hall

From the library of the Grand Lodge of Texas:

Symbolism or Mystic Masonry by J.D. Buck
Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning George H. Steinmetz
The Builders by Joseph Fort Newton
The Spirit of Masonry by William Hutchinson
Morals & Dogma by Albert Pike
The Lost Keys of Freemasonry by Manly P. Hall
Symbolism of Freemasonry by Albert G. Mackey
A Bridge to Light by Rex R. Hutchens, 32°

From the library of Grand Lodge of British Columbia and Yucon:

Symbolism or Mystic Masonry by J.D. Buck
Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning George H. Steinmetz
The Builders by Joseph Fort Newton
The Spirit of Masonry by William Hutchinson
Morals & Dogma by Albert Pike
The Lost Keys of Freemasonry by Manly P. Hall
Symbolism of Freemasonry by Albert G. Mackey
A Bridge to Light by Rex R. Hutchens, 32°

From the library of the Grand Lodge of Ontario:

Symbolism or Mystic Masonry by J.D. Buck
The Mysticism of Masonry by R. Swinburne Clymer
Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning George H. Steinmetz
The Builders by Joseph Fort Newton
The Spirit of Masonry by William Hutchinson
Morals & Dogma by Albert Pike
The Lost Keys of Freemasonry by Manly P. Hall
Symbolism of Freemasonry by Albert G. Mackey

From the library of the Scottish Rite Supreme Council, 33° Masons:

Your Amazing Mystic Powers by Henry C. Clausen, 33°
A Bridge to Light by Rex R. Hutchens, 32°
Symbolism or Mystic Masonry by J.D. Buck
Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning by George H. Steinmetz
The Meaning of Masonry by W. L. Wilmhurst
The Spirit of Masonry by William Hutchinson
Morals & Dogma by Albert Pike
The Lost Keys of Freemasonry by Manly P. Hall
Symbolism of Freemasonry by Albert G. Mackey
The Mysticism of Masonry by R. Swinburne Clymer

Finally, from the library of the United Grand Lodge of England:

Your Amazing Mystic Powers by Henry C. Clausen, 33°
A Bridge to Light by Rex R. Hutchens, 32°
Symbolism or Mystic Masonry by J.D. Buck
Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning by George H. Steinmetz
The Meaning of Masonry by W. L. Wilmhurst
The Spirit of Masonry by William Hutchinson
Morals & Dogma by Albert Pike
The Lost Keys of Freemasonry by Manly P. Hall
Symbolism of Freemasonry by Albert G. Mackey

So Wayne, you can try to distract readers by resorting to an ad hominem attack to discredit me all you want. It won't change the fact that according to the highest Masonic authorities (Grand Lodges), THESE Masonic books play a large part in the Masonic education process. And, since they are so highly recommended, THESE books along with others like them, collectively speak for Freemasonry. Your denial of these facts merely speaks to your own dishonesty.

And if I were you, I'd be careful about the degree to which you discredit your eminent Masonic brethren; even S. Brent Morris knows better than to do that. Although it did not change his position on the Masonic connection to the Ancient Mysteries, apparently it got him in a lot of trouble with the leaders of the Craft.

SORRY, MR. PLAGIARIST. What you are speaks so loudly of you, that I can't seem to hear a word you're saying. You've totally ignored it when you've been caught in deliberate lies, now you've been caught in a deliberate plagiarism of someone else's work, and you are trying to blow right by it like it never happened.

I for one have no more interest in listening to a plagiarist proclaiming "Christian" faith and deliberately telling that which is not true, and actually believing he does so in the name of Christ. You like tossing out labels of hypocrisy and blasphemy, well, you just took the academy award for that category.

So Wayne, you can try to distract readers by resorting to an ad hominem attack to discredit me all you want.

You can conjure up all the false bluster and bravado you wish. I have not discredited you at all. You have done such a magnificent job of doing that on your own, I don't need to lift a finger to do that, other than to point out for readers who may be taken in by your plagiarism and prevarications, so that they unwary need not be deceived by you. And since you seem to be trying to make yet another evasion, I will be blunt:

DID YOU OR DID YOU NOT PLAGIARIZE MATERIALS CONTAINED IN YOUR LAST POST? THAT IS, DID YOU OR DID YOU NOT CUT AND PASTE PORTIONS OF MATERIAL FROM ANOTHER WEBSITE (OR WEBSITES) AND POST IT HERE WITHOUT THE LEAST ATTRIBUTION TO SIGNIFY FROM WHENCE IT CAME?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

You can address someone else from this point. I have no more interest in entertaining your lies and your evasions. Not until you come clean on any of this mess, at least. Go peddle your prevarications somewhere else.

 

[O.F.F.]

DID YOU OR DID YOU NOT PLAGIARIZE MATERIALS CONTAINED IN YOUR LAST POST? THAT IS, DID YOU OR DID YOU NOT CUT AND PASTE PORTIONS OF MATERIAL FROM ANOTHER WEBSITE (OR WEBSITES) AND POST IT HERE WITHOUT THE LEAST ATTRIBUTION TO SIGNIFY FROM WHENCE IT CAME? A simple yes or no will suffice.

NO, and you can pretend that you saw otherwise, post what you think you saw, but apparently you missed the attribution. SORRY 'REV' IDOLATOR, it is abundantly clear that you are purposely ignoring the link to the Ancient Pagan Mysteries ascribed by your eminent Masonic brethren as a diversion tactic. But like I said, I don't give a 'demon's tail in hell' if you do, IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACTS!

 

[Rev Wayne]

NO, and you can pretend that you saw otherwise, post what you think you saw, but apparently you missed the attribution.

Don't be asinine. It's the supposed "attributions" that are the CLEAREST EVIDENCE that this came from either the page to which I linked, or one which copied the same material. You were caught dead to rights, and now don't even have the moral fiber to man up and admit it, and would rather continue to wear the liar's brand than to confess and liberate your spirit.

So now you are not only a plagiarist, but a flat-out, deliberate liar, and deserve the label as much as anyone I have ever encountered.

you are purposely ignoring the link

No, it is you who are ignoring the link, and hoping nobody else will click on it, either. By that of course, I refer to this one:

O.F.F.'S LATEST BLUNDER

Take a look at it, readers, if you have not done so already, and tell me the quotes, as well as the lines of introduction, are not word-for-word the same as Mike posted, without giving any attribution to the author of the anitmasonic site on which they appeared.

Your defense of this is reprehensible, and only serves to show the incorrigibility that has come to characterize your message and your methods.

I'd be perfectly willing to give the benefit of the doubt on this when you say I "must have missed the attribution," if only you had made some attempt to show why what I said can't be taken at face value. But so far, you have declined any such attempt; and I have searched high and low in that post to find the attribution I allegedly missed; but truth to tell, there WAS NONE.

 

[O.F.F.]

But so far, you have declined any such attempt; and I have searched high and low in that post to find the attribution I allegedly missed; but truth to tell, there WAS NONE.

Well I hope you do a better job this weekend on your Easter Egg Hunt, because you obviously missed this:

Gould wrote History of Freemasonry in 1887. Since then, many other eminent Masons apparently disagreed with him; making your characterization of Masonry's Pagan roots theory as "rapidly dwindled in popularity" a falsehood. Here are several examples from the7thfire.com to prove why:

Yet in the midst of repeated exposure of your fraternity's dark roots for which you opened the door, you've posted nothing substantial at all to refute the evidence presented against Freemasonry. Instead, you resort to this current barrage of false accusations, while ignoring the exposures of Masonry's pagan origins; which have been now proven to be supported by Grand Lodges around the world.

What on earth are you thinking? And please, don't continue to try to convince us you're doing "Christian" ministry as a pseudo-pastor, that's been so disproven at the very first falsehood you presented. Because as a "Mason" and a defender of the Religion of Freemasonry, that is totally and completely untenable for you by now.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Well I hope you do a better job this weekend on your Easter Egg Hunt, because you obviously missed this:

Gould wrote History of Freemasonry in 1887. Since then, many other eminent Masons apparently disagreed with him; making your characterization of Masonry's Pagan roots theory as "rapidly dwindled in popularity" a falsehood. Here are several examples from the7thfire.com to prove why:

Better tend to your own Easter eggs, dude. The only person doing any hunting is you, apparently, and if you were hunting for a home run with this, I hate to disappoint you, but you just struck out, because that base was already covered. Too bad you have such a terrible habit of not reading everything people post, or you MIGHT have seen THIS:

This, of course, is not the first time he has engaged in such flagrant plagiarism. When caught once before, he tried to go in and edit the post and then deny it, by adding the attribution after he was caught red-handed. Which is why, as soon as this posts, I will be saving a copy of the page to preserve his post as it appears, in case he tries the same thing again.

As it turns out, this was a wise precaution. Had I not done so, I would not have caught you in the most flagrant lie of all--the lie to cover up the other lies. Since I DID save the page immediately after entering that post, I was able to preserve your comment as it ORIGINALLY appeared, so that we have it to place in side-by-side comparison with your CURRENT claim:

#1 is the statement as you originally posted it, #2 is your current version of it. If you are speaking the truth, the two should be absolutely identical:

#1 Gould wrote History of Freemasonry in 1887. Since then, many other eminent Masons apparently disagreed with him; making your characterization of Masonry's Pagan roots theory as "rapidly dwindled in popularity" a falsehood. Here are several examples to prove why:

#2 Gould wrote History of Freemasonry in 1887. Since then, many other eminent Masons apparently disagreed with him; making your characterization of Masonry's Pagan roots theory as "rapidly dwindled in popularity" a falsehood. Here are several examples from the7thfire.com to prove why:

Well, whaddya know? They don't match. The words "from the7thfire.com" do not appear in the post as you originally entered it. Why am I not surprised? Oh, that's right, I'm not surprised because I PREDICTED it.

What's more, there is a little telltale indicator right at the bottom of that post, indicating exactly what happened:

Last edited by O.F.F.; 1st April 2010 at 07:19 AM.

That would be this morning, of course. Compare that with the notation at the bottom of the same post as it was when I saved it last night:

Last edited by O.F.F.; 31st March 2010 at 11:53 PM.

How about that? These don't match either.

Having discovered all of this, and having done a point-by-point comparison between the two, that one editorial change, adding "from the7thfire.com" to what was originally there, is the only difference.

That makes it pretty obvious what was done and why. Reading what I posted and realizing you had been nailed, you tried to take advantage of this forum's "anytime" editing allowance, and tried to do the same thing you did with the "insulin vs. ice cream" fiasco you did some years ago, plagiarizing material from the "Stand to Reason" website. You were caught dead to rights on it then, and you have now been nailed once again, attempting the same deceitful coverup.

And the irony is, as usual, that it's not the lie that gets you in trouble, it's the attempt to cover it up with more lies that always reveals your true colors. The attempt to "save face" has only revealed for all the readers to see, that there were two faces there all along.

"Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them."

Now that your "darkness" is exposed, come out of it into the light of Christ, He's waiting for you.

Readers, I do not make such comments in idleness. I can back up every single thing I have said, including this post. If you can PM me an email address if you wish to see the hard copy proof for yourself, I will be more than happy to send it. As for this double-dealing cowan, I am done with him for good, and may God have mercy on him.

 

[O.F.F.]

As for this double-dealing cowan, I am done with him for good,

It's about time, I've been done with your "sorry excuse for a pastor" much longer than you think. But how can anyone expect you to get your stories straight, when you can't even get your Masonic terms straight.

Definition of Cowan

A worker in unmortared stone; A person who wishes to learn the secrets of Masonry without experiencing the rituals or going through the degrees.

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cowan

Last time I checked my former status, I have acquired more Masonic degrees, and have practiced Masonry a lot longer, than you have at this point in time. That's why I can speak about it with much more authority than you can. You are a five-year Master Mason, who just got his Royal Arch Degree.

Talk to me when your 'cowaness' finally becomes a 32° Mason, which is where the primary instruction of the Ancient Mysteries takes place. But since you've already gone on record of never planning to obtain these degrees, for you to talk about it as if you "know" about them from firsthand experience, makes you more of a COWAN than I'll ever be.

But since you have now vowed to be DONE with me, my hope is that you will stick to your word and NEVER talk to me EVER again!

 

[Rev Wayne]

But how can anyone expect you to get your stories straight, when you can't even get your Masonic terms straight.

This is unbelievable. Apparently "incorrigible" is not a strong enough word for you. Even though YOU are the one caught in the act, not just lying, but telling lies to COVER your lies, and you have the unmitigated, unrepentant audacity to come back with a retort about not "getting terms straight??"

A worker in unmortared stone; A person who wishes to learn the secrets of Masonry without experiencing the rituals or going through the degrees.

That's the limited version of it. But you forget that a cowan comes from the same root word from the Old French for "coward." And the reason they were called such was, they were too much of a coward to actually go through the degrees, having heard just enough of the conspiracy theory stuff that people like you try to sell, to frighten them out of their wits--but not enough, apparently, to prevent their curiosity from getting the better of them.

Last time I checked my former status, I have acquired more Masonic degrees, and have practiced Masonry a lot longer, than you have at this point in time. That's why I can speak about it with much more authority than you can. You are a five-year Master Mason, who just got his Royal Arch Degree.

Interesting, a "former" Mason boasting of his "Masonic" credentials, and trying to claim "authority." I can remember the time when you used to boast that all your authority comes from Jesus Christ. I guess that changed--which, of course, I had already figured, given your recent departures from speaking the truth. It'd be kinda hard to keep trying to sell that one anyway.

And you still got it wrong, Royal Arch was quite some time ago, I have long since then completed all the way through the Chivalric Orders.

But since you have now vowed to be DONE with me, my hope is that you will stick to your word and NEVER talk to me EVER again!

I sure wouldn't question you on that one. I'm sure it would be most advantageous for you if someone who can spot your every untruth were to leave you alone. My gut instinct tells me you are incorrigible and will remain unrepentant no matter what anyone says to you. Sadly, you have become so inured to your own dishonesty that you don't see it even when it stares you in the face. I shake the dust off as we are told to do in such cases when the truth will not be received, and pray that it will be better with you than with those cities who were spoken of in that same passage, when that day comes.

 

[O.F.F.]

Wayne,

You got a lot of nerve calling me "incorrigible" and "unrepentant" when for years now you have persisted zealously in an ungodly, unholy brotherhood, which has been shown to be linked to paganism. Sadly, now that you have become a free "Knight" in this diabolical Order (since as a "pastor" you are exempt from paying any dues), you are so inured to your own allegiance to it, that you don't even see the compromise you've made to the Christian faith, even when it stares you right in the face.

And you have the unmitigated audacity to call yourself a "Christian" pastor and place judgment upon me.

Your best bet is to move on, and get back to the topic at hand. If you insist on making this about YOU and ME, go right ahead. You haven't changed one bit of evidence levied against your idolatrous institution; and you NEVER will. But if you insist, we can continue this current ad hominem exchange until the moderators close this thread as past conflicts with you have caused in the past.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Wayne,

You got a lot of nerve calling me "incorrigible" and "unrepentant" when for years now you have persisted zealously in an ungodly, unholy brotherhood, which has been shown to be linked to paganism. Sadly, now that you have become a free "Knight" in this diabolical Order (since as a "pastor" you are exempt from paying any dues), you are so inured to your own allegiance to it, that you don't even see the compromise you've made to the Christian faith, even when it stares you right in the face.

And you have the unmitigated audacity to call yourself a "Christian" pastor and place judgment upon me.

Your best bet is to move on, and get back to the topic at hand. If you insist on making this about YOU and ME, go right ahead. You haven't changed one bit of evidence levied against your idolatrous institution; and you NEVER will. But if you insist, we can continue this current ad hominem exchange until the moderators close this thread as past conflicts with you have caused in the past.

Yada, yada, same BS, different day. Somehow you just don't seem to get it, that when you get caught with your pants down, the appropriate response is not the same as the emperor with the new clothes.

Pretense will not gain you an ounce. You claim that your arguments still stand, and in blissful ignorance just can't see that when you are repeatedly caught bending the truth, stretching the truth, and flat-out disregarding the truth--and not only that, but flat-out lying about it when the truth comes out:

THE END RESULT IS, YOU HAVE ZERO CREDIBILITY LEFT.

Get used to it. The truth does not need your kind of "help." Your "warnings" fall on deaf ears, like the boy who cried wolf one time too many when he knew none was coming.

 

[O.F.F.]

THE END RESULT IS, YOU HAVE ZERO CREDIBILITY LEFT.

YOU NEVER HAD ANY CREDIBILITY TO BEGIN WITH. As if being a Mason hiding behind the title "rev" gives you ANY credibility at all.

 

[Rev Wayne]

YOU NEVER HAD ANY CREDIBILITY TO BEGIN WITH.

Nice try, but I'm not the one whose credibility is on the line, because I'm not the one caught making false claims, so it isn't my credibility that's on the line.

As if being a Mason hiding behind the title "rev" gives you ANY credibility at all.

No need to "hide behind" something over which I had no choice.

As for you, your own evidence is already in:

Here are several examples to prove why:
Here are several examples from the7thfire.com to prove why:

The handwriting is on the wall, your methods are weighed in the balance and found wanton, and whitewash doesn't work even for Pharisees.

 

[O.F.F.]

At that time, I had a habit of stretching the truth to the limit, usually something with an element of truth that I would use to tell outrageous lies, in an effort to give them a ring of credibility.

I guess some HABITS never die.

 

[wayseer]

To wayseer,
The Biblical testimony is clear who is God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, not sure Freemasons who are believers in other gods are.

That is of no concern to FM - all that is asked is that one believe in God. A FM is not asked to justify and explain that belief.

What you are doing is creating a windmill in your mind and the tying to joust against the images you have created. Those images you have created bear no semblance to the reality of FM despite your efforts to impose your meanings on others.

 

[Rev Wayne]

for years now you have persisted zealously in an ungodly, unholy brotherhood, which has been shown to be linked to paganism.

Really? Where and when was that? I mean, it certainly hasn't been shown HERE--not when the material you use to try to prove it, is from pseudo-Masonry, or from Scottish Rite, which seems to have a fixation about it.

Nor has it been "shown" when those who address the subject of the mysteries, most often do so on the premise that they were the precursor of Christianity as well (as does Augustine). The whole subject of mysteries, their nature prior to the Christian era, whether or not they came down to the Christian era, is totally subjective anyway, thus also totally speculative. It was such a popular theory at one time, in both Christian and Masonic circles, that the attention it gained was in great disproportion to its credibility. Its demise was inevitable. By Gould's time, the climate had already begun to change, so that people were more prepared to receive the work of someone sticking only to the concrete realm of the verifiable. And what was verified by Gould was, there simply IS no smoking gun to be found in trying to create a trail leading from Masonry back to the mysteries. It simply does not exist, for the primary reason that it never did.

Most often, the accusation is raised simply because someone has heard someone else say it, or read it elsewhere, and decided to repeat it. And when it does get raised, most often it is raised without any specifics, and bathed in generalities. There's a reason that is so: by way of example, the Osiris comparison that is often made in comparison with the Hiram legend of Masonry, completely falls apart when the specifics are presented, because the supposed comparison points are such a stretch, they leave you wondering how in the world anyone ever considered the two to be comparable.

The point brought out by the BC/Yukon site is a valid one: we do not condemn the church as "pagan" or "blasphemous" just because there are fringe elements within it that do not measure up to expectations of orthodoxy. Nor is it a valid claim to call Masonry "pagan," based on nothing any more solid than the claims of those who believe it to be so. And if you examine the sources making the claims, you will find there is no solid evidence backing any of it up.

To illustrtate this, consider the following material which can be found in my own jurisdiction's manual:

The rituals are saturated with Bible content. Any Mason familiar with the Bible can’t miss it:



OPENING PRAYER

Most holy and glorious Lord God, the great Architect of the Universe, the Giver of all good gifts and graces! (James 1:17)
Thou hast promised that "where two or three are gathered together in Thy name Thou wilt be in the midst of them and bless them." (Matthew 18:20)


CLOSING PRAYER

Supreme Architect of the Universe! Accept our humble thanks for the many mercies and blessings which Thy bounty has conferred on us, (2 Corinthians 9:5)
and especially for this friendly and social intercourse. Pardon, we beseech Thee, whatever Thou hast seen amiss in us since we have been together, (2 Chr. 6:37, James 4:3)
and continue to us Thy presence, (Psalm 51:11)
protection, and blessing. (Deu. 28:8, Psa. 24:5)


BENEDICTION AT CLOSING

May the blessing of Heaven (Gen. 49:25, Malachi 3:10)
rest upon us and all regular Masons! May brotherly love prevail, (Hebrews 13:1)
and every moral and social virtue cement us!

ENTRY UPON THE 1ST DEGREE

(Psalm 133) (Read in its entirety)


Our Institution is said to be supported, by WISDOM, (Proverbs 4:7)
STRENGTH (Deu. 33:25)
and BEAUTY; (Psalm 29:2)
because it is necessary there should be wisdom to contrive, strength to support and beauty to adorn, all great and important undertakings. Its dimensions are unlimited, and its covering no less than the canopy of heaven. (Isaiah 40:22)
To this object the Mason's mind is continually directed, and thither he hopes at last to arrive by the aid of the theological ladder, which Jacob, in his vision, saw ascending from earth to heaven; (Gen. 28:10-22)
the three principal rounds of which are denominated FAITH, HOPE and CHARITY, (1 Cor. 13:13)
and which admonish us to have faith in God, (Mark 11:22, 1 Pet. 1:21)
hope in immortality, (1 Cor. 15:54)
and charity to all mankind. (Gal. 6:10)


ENTRY UPON THE SECOND DEGREE

(Amos 7:7-8) (Word for word, KJV)

CHARGE AT CLOSING

Let the world observe how Masons love one another. (1 John 4:7)
These generous principles are to extend further. Every human being has a claim upon your kind offices. Do good unto all. Recommend it more especially "to the household of the faithful." (Galatians 6:10)
By diligence in the duties of your respective callings; by liberal benevolence and diffusive charity; by constancy and fidelity in your friendships, discover the beneficial and happy effects of this ancient and honorable Institution. Let it not be supposed that you have here labored in vain (1 Cor. 15:54)
and spent your strength for naught; for your work is with the Lord and your recompense with God. (Ruth 2:12)

Finally, brethren, be ye all of one mind; live in peace, and may the God of love and peace delight to dwell with and bless you! (2 Cor. 13:11)

ENTRY UPON THIRD DEGREE


Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not. . . Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Ecc. 12:1-7)
(shortened by post limit requirement--all 7 verses are actually read)

PRAYER AT RAISING


Thou, O God! knowest our down-sitting and our uprising, and understandest our thought afar off. . .(Psalm 139:2, Job 14:1-11, Isa. 45:17 )
(Shortened for post limit requirement)

BENEDICTION AT THE LAYING OF A CORNER STONE

Glory be to God on High, and on earth peace, good will toward men! (Luke 2:14)
O Lord, we most heartily beseech Thee with Thy favor to behold and bless this assemblage. Pour down Thy mercies, like the dew that falls upon the mountains, (Psa. 133:3)
upon Thy servants engaged in the solemn ceremonies of this day. Bless, we pray Thee, all the workmen who shall be engaged in the erection of this edifice; keep them from all forms of accident and harm, and grant them health and prosperity while they live. And finally, we pray that when our earthly toils and labors are ended we may all, through Thy mercy, wisdom and forgiveness, attain everlasting joy (Isa. 35:10)
and felicity in the mansions prepared for us (John 14:2-3)
in that temple not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Amen. (2 Cor. 5:1)

AT THE DEDICATION OF A MASONIC HALL

In the name of the Great Jehovah, to whom be all honor and glory, I do solemnly dedicate this Hall to Freemasonry.

INVOCATION AT DEDICATION OF A MASONIC HALL

And may the Lord, the giver of every good and perfect gift, (James 1:17)

BENEDICTION AT FUNERAL

Now may the presence, (Matt. 28:20)
comfort (2 Cor. 1:3-4)
and strength (Isa. 40:31)
of our Heavenly Father and the peace that passeth all understanding (Philippians 4:7)
abide with us all, now and always. AMEN.

INVOCATION AT LODGE OF SORROW

"Almighty and Eternal God, (Deu. 33:27)
in Whom we live, and move, and have our being, (Acts 17:28)
we pray that Thou will grant each of us health, happiness, and well being in the coming year.


The Bible content and basis is unmistakable and undeniable. When I have presented this in the past and have invited anyone to cite from the same or comparable materals, anywhere that would confirm what they claim as "paganism," it has met with a decidedly stony silence.

 

[Rev Wayne]

I guess some HABITS never die.

Context, please, or do not quote me at all. The fact is, I know exactly what context the remark comes from, just as you do, and you know good and well that the way you just presented it constitutes another attempt at prevarication on your part.

So you're right, your incorrigible habits DO have a manner of trying to stay alive no matter how malnourished they are.

 

[O.F.F.]

I mean, it certainly hasn't been shown HERE--not when the material you use to try to prove it, is from pseudo-Masonry, or from Scottish Rite, which seems to have a fixation about it.

You are only one of thousands of readers who visit this website, or that come to this very thread. And, since you are so fixated on your own "Christian" interpretation of Freemasonry, it stands to reason that you would say "it certainly hasn't been shown here." But I trust the readers know better.

That said, even if you put "pseudo-Masonry" aside, are you suggesting that eminent 32nd and 33rd degree Masons of the Scottish Rite aren't credible, or are also some sort of "fringe" or "pseudo-Masonry?" After all, you used S. Brent Morris, a 33° Mason, to defend your position. Yet even he paid Mackey and Pike a debt of gratitude for Scottish Rite Masonry.

Albert Pike and Albert Mackey were geniuses. They researched and wrote about Freemasonry at a time when there was virtually no reliable historical material available. They did the best they could with what they had, and they did very well indeed. Their administrative skills alone, especially those of Pike, expanded the Scottish Rite Southern Jurisdiction and created the organization that has grown so successfully into our modern fraternity today. We owe each of them a great debt of gratitude.

PIKE, MACKEY AND THE ANCIENT MYSTERIES by S. BRENT MORRIS, 33°

Yet despite his own personal opinion, the Supreme Council of the Scottish Rite continues to perpetuate the theory by featuring Masonic material that contain that information, and encourage it's members to read it as appropriate Masonic education material.

From the library of the Scottish Rite Supreme Council, 33° Masons:

Your Amazing Mystic Powers by Henry C. Clausen, 33°
A Bridge to Light by Rex R. Hutchens, 32°
Symbolism or Mystic Masonry by J.D. Buck
Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning by George H. Steinmetz
The Meaning of Masonry by W. L. Wilmhurst
The Spirit of Masonry by William Hutchinson
Morals & Dogma by Albert Pike
The Lost Keys of Freemasonry by Manly P. Hall
Symbolism of Freemasonry by Albert G. Mackey
The Mysticism of Masonry by R. Swinburne Clymer

And as you can clearly see, they even promote J.D. Buck, who you called a "laughing-stock in Masonry," as well as R. Swinburne Clymer, who you called a "pseudo-Mason."

Now before you go O.F.F. and try to discount my point by claiming that the Scottish Rite only represents a small minority of Masons in the United States, therefore what they promote doesn't matter, let me let THEM set the record straight for you.

The Northern Masonic Jurisdiction specifically covers the 15 states east of the Mississippi River and north of the Mason-Dixon Line and the Ohio River, including Delaware. Its headquarters is in Lexington, Massachusetts, a suburb of Boston. The other Supreme Council in the United States is that of the Southern Jurisdiction. It has its head quarters at Washington, D.C., and covers the remaining 35 states, the District of Columbia, and the United States territories and possessions. At present, there are 436,000 Scottish Rite Masons throughout the Northern Masonic Jurisdiction. Of this number, there are approximately 3,700 Thirty-third degree Masons, comprising the membership of the Supreme Council. There are Scottish Rite centers, called "Valleys" in 110 cities and towns in the 15 states of the Northern Masonic Jurisdiction.

The Scottish Rite membership of the Southern Jurisdiction exceeds 600,000, so that the total Scottish Rite membership in the United States is over one million.

Ancient Accepted Scottish Rite Valley of Cleveland

According to the Masonic Service Association, which maintains Masonic membership statistics, there are approximately 1.5 million Masons in the U.S. I suspect these numbers don't include Prince Hall Masonry. And, I can tell you from my firsthand experience, that there are many Scottish Rite Prince Hall Masons. In either case, Scottish Rite Masonry makes up at least a resounding 67% majority.

Yet these numbers shouldn't be too surprising. After all, Masonic ritual encourages Masons to advance and earn the "higher" degrees. As you well know, in the legend of the third degree, the secret WORD of a Master Mason was lost. Masons are told that, as a result, all they have in the Blue Lodge is the substitute for the Master's WORD. And the only way to find out what the real WORD is, they must advance into the "higher" degrees of Masonry.

By Gould's time, the climate had already begun to change, so that people were more prepared to receive the work of someone sticking only to the concrete realm of the verifiable. And what was verified by Gould was, there simply IS no smoking gun to be found in trying to create a trail leading from Masonry back to the mysteries. It simply does not exist, for the primary reason that it never did.

Let me remind you, Gould completed his work in 1887; and again even putting the "pseudo-Masons" S. R. Parchment and R. S. Clymer aside, it has been shown HERE that distinguished Masonic authors have continued to propagate the theory of the link between Masonry and the Ancient Mysteries for more than a hundred years AFTER Gould's work.

Furthermore, let me remind you, that many of the books listed above, which speak to the Masonic connection with the Ancient Mysteries continues, to this very day, to be recommended reading material in virtually every Blue Degree Grand Lodge Masonic library in North America; and even the United Grand Lodge of England!

From the library of the Grand Lodge of Iowa:

The Builders by Joseph Fort Newton
The Spirit of Masonry by William Hutchinson
Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning by George H. Steinmetz
The Lost Keys of Freemasonry by Manly P. Hall

From the library of the Grand Lodge of Ohio:

The Builders by Joseph Fort Newton
Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning by George H. Steinmetz
The Meaning of Masonry by W. L. Wilmhurst
Morals & Dogma by Albert Pike
The Spirit of Masonry by William Hutchinson

From the library of the Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania:

Symbolism or Mystic Masonry by J.D. Buck
The Builders by Joseph Fort Newton
Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning by George H. Steinmetz
The Meaning of Masonry by W. L. Wilmhurst
The Spirit of Masonry by William Hutchinson
Morals & Dogma by Albert Pike
The Lost Keys of Freemasonry by Manly P. Hall
Symbolism of Freemasonry by Albert G. Mackey
The Mysticism of Masonry by R. Swinburne Clymer

From the library of the Grand Lodge of California:

Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning by George H. Steinmetz
The Meaning of Masonry by W. L. Wilmhurst
The Builders by Joseph Fort Newton

From the library of the Grand Lodge of New York:

The Builders by Joseph Fort Newton
Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning by George Harold Steinmetz
The Meaning of Masonry by Walter Leslie Wilmshurst
The Lost Keys of Freemasonry by Manly P. Hall

From the library of the Grand Lodge of Texas:

Symbolism or Mystic Masonry by J.D. Buck
Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning George H. Steinmetz
The Builders by Joseph Fort Newton
The Spirit of Masonry by William Hutchinson
Morals & Dogma by Albert Pike
The Lost Keys of Freemasonry by Manly P. Hall
Symbolism of Freemasonry by Albert G. Mackey
A Bridge to Light by Rex R. Hutchens, 32°

From the library of Grand Lodge of British Columbia and Yucon:

Symbolism or Mystic Masonry by J.D. Buck
Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning George H. Steinmetz
The Builders by Joseph Fort Newton
The Spirit of Masonry by William Hutchinson
Morals & Dogma by Albert Pike
The Lost Keys of Freemasonry by Manly P. Hall
Symbolism of Freemasonry by Albert G. Mackey
A Bridge to Light by Rex R. Hutchens, 32°

From the library of the Grand Lodge of Ontario:

Symbolism or Mystic Masonry by J.D. Buck
The Mysticism of Masonry by R. Swinburne Clymer
Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning George H. Steinmetz
The Builders by Joseph Fort Newton
The Spirit of Masonry by William Hutchinson
Morals & Dogma by Albert Pike
The Lost Keys of Freemasonry by Manly P. Hall
Symbolism of Freemasonry by Albert G. Mackey

From the library of the United Grand Lodge of England:

Your Amazing Mystic Powers by Henry C. Clausen, 33°
A Bridge to Light by Rex R. Hutchens, 32°
Symbolism or Mystic Masonry by J.D. Buck
Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning by George H. Steinmetz
The Meaning of Masonry by W. L. Wilmhurst
The Spirit of Masonry by William Hutchinson
Morals & Dogma by Albert Pike
The Lost Keys of Freemasonry by Manly P. Hall
Symbolism of Freemasonry by Albert G. Mackey

So the "fixation" as you put it, is not only with the Scottish Rite, but the Blue Lodge apparently has it too! You may very well be a member of the Chivalric Orders (and perhaps have now obtained the real WORD of a Master Mason), but until you become the Sovereign Grand Commander of the Supreme Council, or a Grand Master of one of these Grand Lodges, you cannot have these Masonic education materials removed from these libraries. So until then, you have to live with these FACTS and can't do a thing about it!

The Bible content and basis is unmistakable and undeniable. When I have presented this in the past and have invited anyone to cite from the same or comparable materals, anywhere that would confirm what they claim as "paganism," it has met with a decidedly stony silence.

Oh really? The fact is you speak from the paradigm of YOUR OWN "Christian" interpretation of Masonic ritual. After all, things like, WISDOM (Proverbs 4:7), STRENGTH (Deu. 33:25) and BEAUTY; (Psalm 29:2), the blessing of Heaven (Gen. 49:25, Malachi 3:10), charity to all mankind (Gal. 6:10), comfort (2 Cor. 1:3-4), and Almighty and Eternal God (Deu. 33:27) CAN ALL BE FOUND in some shape or form in the language of other religions from the Volume of Law they deem as "sacred." To say that these terms or concepts are strictly biblical is, at best, a bit of a stretch.

In fact, I may have shared this with you before, but if so, it is certainly worth revisiting. The following comes from an Masonic interview with a distinguished Hindu Mason. But let me first share the accompanying photo, which is pretty telling in and of itself.

An excerpt of the dialogue is as follows:

An important document has been written, The Volume of the Sacred Law in Multi-Faith Freemasonry which is the work of Chhotalal Pattni, whom I first met at a lodge meeting where I was privileged to hear that talk for the first time. . .

Were there many parallels between Bhagavad-gita and Masonic philosophy?

The general principle is that the Bhagavad-gita will tell you, using the reincarnation philosophy, that every man is rewarded according to his merit and ability. The principle behind the Great Architect rewarding or punishing as we have obeyed or disregarded His divine commands is the principle of karma preached by Krishna. To do action is your duty, but the fruits of it are in the hands of someone else, namely of the Great Architect, or the Lord, but the day that you do an action with the view of gaining the fruits of that action, it is not valid. It has to be a disinterested action. In chapter twelve of Bhagavad-gita we read “Try to act giving up all results of your work and try to be self-situated”, a clear reference to the Centre. The Koran is very similar – you must do the action without any desire or hope of reward.’

In fact the Bhagavad-gita is replete with principles corresponding to Masonic practice. Chapter five has clear resonances with the first degree.

'A liberated person is not attracted to material sense-pleasure. The selfrealised person enjoys unlimited happiness, for he concentrates on the Supreme.’ The prayer in the first degree takes on added significance when we read chapter sixteen: ‘These transcendental qualities belong to godly men endowed with divine nature.'

But the most striking references in Bhagavad-gita are those which resonate with the third degree. ‘Those with the vision of eternity can see that the imperishable soul is transcendental, eternal, and beyond the modes of nature.' (emphasis added)

Freemasonry and Hinduism: Chhotalal Pattni Talks to Julian Rees about Links, Freemasonry Today - Spring 2007 - Issue 40

While we appreciate your earnest attempt to convey a "Christian" worldview of Freemasonry, the evidence presented HERE clearly suggests that there are a multitude of ways in which it can be interpreted; to include a PAGAN perspective. Since that is the case, devoted Christians and certainly devoted pastors, should have absolutely nothing to do with it!

 

[brightmorningstar]

To wayseer,

That is of no concern to FM - all that is asked is that one believe in God.

Not so fast, it isnt a concern which god to FM, whether it is actually the true God or not, but you wrote 'God' with a capital implying other gods are God, which is the deception I am pointing out to you.

A FM is not asked to justify and explain that belief.

Which means FM doesnt care whether someones beliefs are in the true God or another god. That means FM is syncretistic and not a Christian based organisation requiring a belief in a god but not bothered whether it really is God or some other god.