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My Problem with the Invisible Church

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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by tadoflamb
It's invisible. I can't see it.
cool.gif

Originally Posted by WarriorAngel
Yea invisibility is hard to see, but it is there.

Which is why if I was a super hero, or heroine, I would want invisibility.
kawaii.gif
.

Originally Posted by TigerBunny
Turn on the "Light".
thumbsup.gif

Ohhhh, you guys! Haha!
This thread looks like fun!!! :D
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Around 80% of the early church fathers who comment on this text (Matt 16) didn't even think that the "rock" Christ was promising to build upon was Peter.

St. Augustine believed, at the end of his life, that it was Peter's confession. This was by far the most common patristic opinion.
I was given this link awhile back from an EO on a TAW thread.

http://www.christiantruth.com/mt16.html

The Church Fathers' Interpretation of the Rock of Matthew 16:18​

An Historical Refutation of the Claims of Roman Catholicism
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Ahhh....gool ole wiki.........

Invisible church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*snip*

The invisible church or church invisible is a theological concept of an "invisible" body of the elect who are known only to God, in contrast to the "visible church"—that is, the institutional body on earth which preaches the gospel and administers the sacraments. Every member of the invisible church is saved, while the visible church contains some individuals who are saved and others who are unsaved. (Compare Matthew 7:21-24.)

The concept was insisted upon at the Protestant reformation as a way of distinguishing between the "visible" Catholic church, which according to the Reformers was largely corrupt, and those within it who are truly believers.

John Calvin described the church invisible as "that which is actually in God's presence, into which no persons are received but those who are children of God by grace of adoption and true members of Christ by sanctification of the Holy Spirit... [it] includes not only the saints presently living on earth, but all the elect from the beginning of the world." (Institutes 4.1.7)

Roman Catholic theology, reacting against the concept of a purely invisible Church, emphasized the visible aspect of the Church founded by Christ, but in the twentieth century placed more stress on the interior life of the Church as a supernatural organism, identifying the Church, as in the encyclical Mystici Corporis Christi[5] of Pope Pius XII, with the Mystical Body of Christ.[6]

http://www.reformationtheology.com/2006/05/the_visible_vs_the_invisible_c.php


*snip*
The Visible Vs. The Invisible Church

What do we mean when we make the distinction between the visible and invisible church? And what is the reason for this distinction? Starting around the 4th century - the expression "Visible Church" was refered to by theologians, not to a building, but to the members on the rolls of a local church. In other words, all persons who are members of a local church are considered to be a part of the visible church.
On the other hand, the invisible church refers to those persons who have actually been regenerated or quickened by the Holy Sprit, God's elect or true believers. Augustine referred to the church as a mixed body, a visible people, but this people has both tares and wheat, as described by Jesus. In other words, there is no such thing as a perfect church, and there will always people in the church there with bad motives or are there for the wrong reason. There will always be people who claim to love Christ but whose heart is far from Him. Many, Jesus says, will say on that day, did we not do this and that in your name? Jesus wil then say, "I never knew you".

These are descriptions of some people now sitting in your local church and Jesus says of them that he "never knew them!!!" Some persons are in church for show, to be seen by men as pious, others perhaps for a social club or to show of their ability to wax eloquent when discussing theology. These persons hearts are completely invisible to us, but of course, they are not invisible to God and only He can know who is truly regenerate, so we must be generous in our judgements.
 
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tadoflamb

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Ahhh....gool ole wiki.........



The concept was insisted upon at the Protestant reformation as a way of distinguishing between the "visible" Catholic church,
which according to the Reformers was largely corrupt, and those within it who are truly believers.

Roman Catholic theology, reacting against the concept of a purely invisible Church, emphasized the visible aspect of the Church founded by Christ, but in the twentieth century placed more stress on the interior life of the Church as a supernatural organism, identifying the Church, as in the encyclical Mystici Corporis Christi[5] of Pope Pius XII, with the Mystical Body of Christ.[6]

Thanks for that LLOJ.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Thanks for that LLOJ.
I am really just starting to learn about this topic tado.

As most here are aware, I do not study early church history that much, and some of these "terms" I see used are like an "alien" language to me right now.

Hopefully, there will be more dialogue on this from others of all Denominations. God bless :wave:
 
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tadoflamb

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I am really just starting to learn about this topic tado.

As most here are aware, I do not study early church history that much, and some of these "terms" I see used are like an "alien" language to me right now.

Hopefully, there will be more dialogue on this from others of all Denominations. God bless :wave:

I'm still trying to figure out if Protestants believe in a visible Church or not. :confused:
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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It's not invisible it's cloaked.
As the Klingons would say "cloak on, cloak off" :)

6a010536c802e2970b0115720a290f970b-800wi
Hey, if the Klingons can cloak their birds-of-prey from Starfleet Command, why can't the US government make a simple destroyer disappear for a brief period time?
 
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tansy

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I'm still trying to figure out if Protestants believe in a visible Church or not. :confused:

So far as I know they do.

I've always assumed that the visible church is those people you can physically see here, and the invisible church is the ones that are already with Jesus.
 
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laconicstudent

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Hey, if the Klingons can cloak their birds-of-prey from Starfleet Command, why can't the US government make a simple destroyer disappear for a brief period time?

I actually saw something on the History channel. According to this one Navy veteran (who is a clinical sociopath or something like that, by the way) they did.

During WWII supposedly they tested an invisibility field, but it made everyone on the ship go stark raving mad/massive brain damage.

I forget what its called. It was on one of their "UFOs exposed" shows, so.... heh.
 
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JamesAH

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Shoulda checked the troubleshooter's guide.
Sounds like a simple cross-phase of the dilithium crystals with flux capacitors located behind the infundibulator.

And the numerators disconnecting from the denominators.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Hmmm

God is invisible as well as Christ and the Spirit. Any problem with them?
:angel:

YoungLT] John 4:21 Jesus saith to her, `Woman, believe me, that there doth come an hour, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall ye worship the Father;
22 ye worship what ye have not known; we worship what we have known, because the salvation is of the Jews;
23 but, there cometh an hour, and it now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father also doth seek such to worship him;
24 A Spirit the God, and the ones worshipping Him in spirit and truth is binding to be worshipping.'

Textus Rec.) John 4:24 pneuma o qeoV kai touV proskunountaV auton en pneumati kai alhqeia dei proskunein

Reve 14:8 And another Messenger, second-one follows saying "She falls, She falls, Babylon the Great, the out of the wine of the fury of the fornication of her she has given to drink all the nations".
[Jeremiah 51:8]
 
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Albion

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I'm still trying to figure out if Protestants believe in a visible Church or not. :confused:

Do you mean that you aren't sure if you can believe it?--'cause it's been told to you several times already.....YES, WE DO BELIEVE IN THE INVISIBLE CHURCH!

But so do you, deep down. Don't you believe that the "household of faith" is invisible? Don't you believe that the "Communion of Saints" is invisible? Don't you believe that the "Mystical Body of Christ" is invisible? Sure you do. If not, when have you been able to encompass all of each of these in a visual way?
 
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christianmomof3

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On the other hand, the invisible church refers to those persons who have actually been regenerated or quickened by the Holy Sprit, God's elect or true believers. Augustine referred to the church as a mixed body, a visible people, but this people has both tares and wheat, as described by Jesus. In other words, there is no such thing as a perfect church, and there will always people in the church there with bad motives or are there for the wrong reason. There will always be people who claim to love Christ but whose heart is far from Him. Many, Jesus says, will say on that day, did we not do this and that in your name? Jesus wil then say, "I never knew you". These are descriptions of some people now sitting in your local church and Jesus says of them that he "never knew them!!!" Some persons are in church for show, to be seen by men as pious, others perhaps for a social club or to show of their ability to wax eloquent when discussing theology. These persons hearts are completely invisible to us, but of course, they are not invisible to God and only He can know who is truly regenerate, so we must be generous in our judgements.
Thank you. That is a very good explanation and quite correct. I am not sure that the terms "invisible" and "visible" are the best ones to use, but I can understand why they were chosen.
It seems that the RCC and Orthodox claim that every person who passes through their church building doors and meets with them and takes their sacrements is part of the Body of Christ. Protestants, with the concept of the visible and invisible church recognize that there are tares among the wheat - there are false believers or unbelievers meeting among the believers in every group. Going to church, confessing, partaking of the sacramnts etc... does not make one a true believer and member of the Body of Christ. Only the Lord knows for sure who is a member of His Body. Only He knows who among us is taking Him as our Head and He knows who He is dwelling in and who is following Him and who is not.

So, can we see the "invisible" church? I think we can sometimes when the Lord reveals it to us.
 
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