"Silver or gold I do not have"

[probinson]

When exactly did this thread end?

This is the thread that never ends... it just goes on and on my friend.

 

[probinson]

taking the references I found as to the coin in the fishes mouth and taxes of the time, I did some estimating in my head...keep in mind we don't have exact numbers to base it off of, so calculations are sketchy at best. According to my calculations however, Jesus would have been living at about 1/3 poverty level, that is He would have needed about 2/3 more money just to reach poverty level for the day....I would really be interested to see if anyone else did some math on the topic, the answer should pretty much end the discussion of whether or not Jesus was wealthy, at least for that year of His life.

Your entire premise is faulty. The two-drachma tax was not based on your income. It was a flat tax paid by all adult Jewish males;

Adult Jewish males throughout the Empire paid an annual two-drachma tax, based on Exodus 30:13-16, for the upkeep of the Jerusalem temple (compare E. Sanders 1992:156).

Source: Matthew 17 Commentary - Upholding Society's Requirements - BibleGateway.com
​

Exodus 30:13-16 says this;

Exodus 30:13-16 (NIV)
Each one who crosses over to those already counted is to give a half shekel, according to the sanctuary shekel, which weighs twenty gerahs. This half shekel is an offering to the LORD. All who cross over, those twenty years old or more, are to give an offering to the LORD. The rich are not to give more than a half shekel and the poor are not to give less when you make the offering to the LORD to atone for your lives. Receive the atonement money from the Israelites and use it for the service of the Tent of Meeting. It will be a memorial for the Israelites before the LORD, making atonement for your lives."
​

So any such "calculations" would be completely meaningless, as every adult male, 20 years or older, was to pay the two-drachma tax, rich or poor, no more, no less.

 

[razzelflabben]

Why do you have to assume something that I directly stated? God has given us the power to obtain wealth. It's really that simple.

because of what you said right here...you were asked where your wealth came from...your response here is that "God has given us the power to obtain wealth"...that is like saying we obtain it ourselves, or look at it this way, God gave us the power to breath, so we breath without God...not the same thing at all that you said previously. We are not self made men and woman, we are God made men and woman and that includes but is not limited to the wealth we obtain. Scripture tells us that all good gifts, that would include money are from HIM, not us, not the power He has given us, but from HIM...that is why we can take 2 people who do things identical, have identical businesses, business models, business practices, etc. Identical in every aspect of business and one will be wildly successful and the other a failure that ends up closing, because it isn't by our own hand, but God's that we acquire wealth. When we learn what is ours and what is God's, our thoughts and desires can mirror His more readily.

Further consider....Prov. 22:1-2
I Sam. 2:7-8
7 The LORD sends poverty and wealth;
he humbles and he exalts.
8 He raises the poor from the dust
and lifts the needy from the ash heap;
he seats them with princes
and has them inherit a throne of honor.
"For the foundations of the earth are the LORD's;
upon them he has set the world.



II Cor. 8:13-15


Deuteronomy 8:17 "Otherwise, you may say in your heart, 'My power and the strength of my hand made me this wealth.'


Proverbs 10:22 It is the blessing of the LORD that makes rich, And He adds no sorrow to it.


Matthew 6:24-25, 31-33


Now before you make more accusations, keep in mind that I get that you are saying that God gives you the strength to obtain riches, and this verse, would suggest you are right, until we look further at the verse...Duet. 8:18 But remember the LORD your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your forefathers, as it is today.


Notice that ability to aquire wealth and obtaining wealth are not the same thing...in fact, it is like saying that the ability to breath and breathing are the same thing...they are not...strong's says the word ability here means...Word Origin
from an unused word
Definition
strength, power
NASB Word Usage
ability (3), able (1), able* (2), force (1), fruit (1), might (4), mightily (1), mighty (1), power (40), powerful (1), powerless* (1), strength (65), strong (1), wealth (1).


In other words, you are right, God gives us strength to do many things, including work for a living, but wealth and poverty are His alone to give and are not reliant on us to acquire them as we see in the rest of these passages...we are not self made men and woman, we are God made, God sustained, God breathed men and woman...goes back to the sovereignty of God.

 

[razzelflabben]

Your entire premise is faulty. The two-drachma tax was not based on your income. It was a flat tax paid by all adult Jewish males;

Adult Jewish males throughout the Empire paid an annual two-drachma tax, based on Exodus 30:13-16, for the upkeep of the Jerusalem temple (compare E. Sanders 1992:156).

Source: Matthew 17 Commentary - Upholding Society's Requirements - BibleGateway.com
​

Exodus 30:13-16 says this;

Exodus 30:13-16 (NIV)
Each one who crosses over to those already counted is to give a half shekel, according to the sanctuary shekel, which weighs twenty gerahs. This half shekel is an offering to the LORD. All who cross over, those twenty years old or more, are to give an offering to the LORD. The rich are not to give more than a half shekel and the poor are not to give less when you make the offering to the LORD to atone for your lives. Receive the atonement money from the Israelites and use it for the service of the Tent of Meeting. It will be a memorial for the Israelites before the LORD, making atonement for your lives."
​

So any such "calculations" would be completely meaningless, as every adult male, 20 years or older, was to pay the two-drachma tax, rich or poor, no more, no less.

fair enough, so how do we know that this money was for that particular tax? There were as we have today, many taxes...how do we know what one this coin paid for?

 

[probinson]

fair enough, so how do we know that this money was for that particular tax? There were as we have today, many taxes...how do we know what one this coin paid for?

By looking at the scriptures prior;

Matthew 17:24 (NIV)
After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, "Doesn't your teacher pay the temple tax?"
​

Also, in the NASB, it says this;

Matthew 17:27 (NASB)
"However, so that we do not offend them, go to the sea and throw in a hook, and take the first fish that comes up; and when you open its mouth, you will find a shekel. Take that and give it to them for you and Me."
​

Keeping in mind that the temple tax spoken of in Exodus 30 was a half-shekel, since this coin was to pay taxes for both Peter and Jesus (2 half shekels equal one shekel), it's a pretty safe bet that this was for the half-shekel tax for each of them.

 

[probinson]

Emphasis added;

Now before you make more accusations, keep in mind that I get that you are saying that God gives you the strength to obtain riches, and this verse, would suggest you are right, until we look further at the verse...Duet. 8:18 But remember the LORD your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your forefathers, as it is today.

Notice that ability to aquire wealth and obtaining wealth are not the same thing...in fact, it is like saying that the ability to breath and breathing are the same thing...they are not...strong's says the word ability here means...Word Origin
from an unused word
Definition
strength, power
NASB Word Usage
ability (3), able (1), able* (2), force (1), fruit (1), might (4), mightily (1), mighty (1), power (40), powerful (1), powerless* (1), strength (65), strong (1), wealth (1).

So what is your point? According to the definition you posted, "strength" and "ability" and "power" are all interchangeable;

Deuteronomy 8:18 (NIV)
"But you shall remember the LORD your God, for it is He who is giving you power to make wealth, that He may confirm His covenant which He swore to your fathers, as it is this day
​

So I'll stand by my original answer, since it was almost verbatim what the scripture says;

Now, God is our Jehovah Jireh, our Provider, and one of the many things He provides us with is the ability to obtain wealth

​

 

[razzelflabben]

By looking at the scriptures prior;

Matthew 17:24 (NIV)
After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, "Doesn't your teacher pay the temple tax?"
​

Also, in the NASB, it says this;

Matthew 17:27 (NASB)
"However, so that we do not offend them, go to the sea and throw in a hook, and take the first fish that comes up; and when you open its mouth, you will find a shekel. Take that and give it to them for you and Me."
​

Keeping in mind that the temple tax spoken of in Exodus 30 was a half-shekel, since this coin was to pay taxes for both Peter and Jesus (2 half shekels equal one shekel), it's a pretty safe bet that this was for the half-shekel tax for each of them.

I stand corrected, but if it was a temple tax, and not a Caesar imposed tax, why did He say give unto Caesar what is Caesars?

 

[probinson]

I stand corrected, but if it was a temple tax, and not a Caesar imposed tax, why did He say give unto Caesar what is Caesars?

You really should read the account in Matthew. The answer to all of your questions is right there. There is no mention of Caesar. Here it is;

Matthew 17:24-27 (NIV)
After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, "Doesn't your teacher pay the temple tax?" "Yes, he does," he replied. When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. "What do you think, Simon?" he asked. "From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own sons or from others?" "From others," Peter answered. "Then the sons are exempt," Jesus said to him. "But so that we may not offend them, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours."
​

 

[razzelflabben]

Emphasis added;



So what is your point? According to the definition you posted, "strength" and "ability" and "power" are all interchangeable;

Deuteronomy 8:18 (NIV)
"But you shall remember the LORD your God, for it is He who is giving you power to make wealth, that He may confirm His covenant which He swore to your fathers, as it is this day
​

So I'll stand by my original answer, since it was almost verbatim what the scripture says;

the point is that the rest of the passages tell us that where God gives us ability to work, it is also He who gives us wealth or poverty....goes back to His sovereignty....I'm pretty sure I was clear on that issue....God gives both strength to work, and wealth or poverty according to His purpose....it isn't just about God giving us the ability to work, but it is also about Him giving us the money we do have. This is where you theology seems to be breaking down (as best I can tell)...If God only gives us ability, then as scripture says, we can boast in ourselves, verses boasting in the Lord. We trust in our own ability, our own wealth, but if our wealth as well as our strength, comes from God and not ourselves, then our trust is in God alone and not of ourselves.

This as best I can tell is where our differences are...it's as best I can tell, the root of our differences, a root I have been begging you to help me find...

 

[razzelflabben]

You really should read the account in Matthew. The answer to all of your questions is right there. There is no mention of Caesar. Here it is;

Matthew 17:24-27 (NIV)
After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, "Doesn't your teacher pay the temple tax?" "Yes, he does," he replied. When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. "What do you think, Simon?" he asked. "From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own sons or from others?" "From others," Peter answered. "Then the sons are exempt," Jesus said to him. "But so that we may not offend them, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours."
​

got the wrong story, sorry, toooo much multi tasking....how about getting back to the issue of where your money comes from now, scripture is scripture and you have been shown scripture that says your money is from God, not self...

 

[probinson]

the point is that the rest of the passages tell us that where God gives us ability to work,

Deuteronomy 8:18 does not say God gives us the ability to "work". It says He has given us the ability to obtain wealth.

Now if your theology and/or understanding of sovereignty conflicts with that, then perhaps that is indicative of a breakdown in your theology.

 

[probinson]

or look at it this way, God gave us the power to breath, so we breath without God

This is actually an excellent example. Let's apply it to what we're talking about.

No one here (I hope) is going to argue about the fact that God has given us the power to breathe. So, is it bragging for us to actually breathe? Should we sit back and say, "Well, God has given me the power to breathe, so He will either cause me to breathe or not breathe according to His sovereign purposes." Is it "boasting" to actually breathe? I mean, if we breathe "on our own" (which you are doing right now if you're reading this post), is that "boasting" in our own ability? Of course not.

Likewise, God has given us the power to obtain wealth. So is it bragging for me to actually, oh, I don't know, do something with that ability so that I may obtain wealth? Likewise, of course not.

I've already acknowledged, repeatedly, that God is the One Who has given us the ability to obtain wealth. I am incredibly thankful for everything that God has given me the ability to do. But if I just sit here and do nothing because I don't want to do anything "on my own", believing that God's "sovereign purpose" will determine whether I am financially well off or not, then I am missing the point. This is not to say we should "pursue" wealth, because I don't believe we should. Our focus should always be on Jesus. But whether you succeed financially in life is largely (but not entirely) dependent upon what you do with the abilities God has given you.

 

[razzelflabben]

Deuteronomy 8:18 does not say God gives us the ability to "work". It says He has given us the ability to obtain wealth.

Now if your theology and/or understanding of sovereignty conflicts with that, then perhaps that is indicative of a breakdown in your theology.

wow, really? Out of all the passages I presented, the only thing you could glean was the difference between ability and work...

Okay, try this...scripture (changed for peace sake) says that there are two kinds of poverty, that caused by laziness and that caused by oppression...so if, as Deut. 8:18 says, that God gives us the ability to obtain wealth, what would that mean? Remember, in scripture there are two things that cause poverty, laziness/lack of work, and oppression...so the opposite of that, the ability to acquire wealth would equal what? Wouldn't it equal the ability to (opps, I said it) "work" or the ability to overcome the oppressor? Still, doesn't say we make our own wealth, but rather that we are given the ability, remember, according to scripture, that would be the ability to either work, or overcome the oppressor, take your pick...so what then did I say? I said God gave us the ability to work...you know, acquire wealth....the ability to work....

Now that that issue is cleared up, how about the rest of the passages? You know, the one's where God says He gives wealth and poverty....

Just for the record...Prov. 10:4
Prov. 6:10-11

Prov. 13:23

 

[probinson]

Just for the record...Prov. 10:4

Proverbs 10:4 (NIV)
Lazy hands make a man poor, but diligent hands bring wealth.
​

What brings wealth or poverty? The choice of your hands. Lazy hands make a man poor, diligent hands bring wealth. Note that it is the choice of your hands, not God's sovereignty, that determines this.

Proverbs 6:10-11 (NIV)
A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest-and poverty will come on you like a bandit and scarcity like an armed man.
​

Here again, a lazy person, or someone who has chosen not to use the ability God has blessed them with, brings poverty on them.

Proverbs 13:23 (NIV)
A poor man's field may produce abundant food, but injustice sweeps it away.
​

What's interesting, is not one of these scriptures says that God makes people wealthy and/or poor for His "sovereign purposes". It says just the opposite, that diligent hands make wealthy, and lazy hands make poor.

IOW, this actually affirms what I've been saying all along. It is largely up to us what we do with the ability that God blesses us with.

 

[razzelflabben]

This is actually an excellent example. Let's apply it to what we're talking about.

No one here (I hope) is going to argue about the fact that God has given us the power to breathe. So, is it bragging for us to actually breathe? Should we sit back and say, "Well, God has given me the power to breathe, so He will either cause me to breathe or not breathe according to His sovereign purposes." Is it "boasting" to actually breathe? I mean, if we breathe "on our own" (which you are doing right now if you're reading this post), is that "boasting" in our own ability? Of course not.

I'm not looking for a fight or anything here, but do you really not see a difference between breathing and bragging that you breath without God? I mean wow...when did breathing become the same thing as bragging that we don't need God to breath?????? I never suggested that breath, or working for that matter, was boastful of self, so please don't try to twist it into that, what I said, what scripture says is that both our ability to work, and our wealth are both from God so that we have nothing to boast of...big difference from what you are trying to accuse me of, which is why you and I don't get along very well, because you twist everything I say....

Likewise, God has given us the power to obtain wealth. So is it bragging for me to actually, oh, I don't know, do something with that ability so that I may obtain wealth? Likewise, of course not.

in order to try to keep peace, all I will say here is that twisting things into something they are not, is a flaming technique, and very unloving....try addressing what I really did say....

I've already acknowledged, repeatedly, that God is the One Who has given us the ability to obtain wealth.

and what I have asked you, shown you in scripture, etc. is that God not only gives us the ability to work, but He is also the one who gives us wealth...that is what scripture tells us...please try to address the points I am making rather than to reinvent the argument and then argue it, it's as if you want to argue against yourself and ignore me all together...

I am incredibly thankful for everything that God has given me the ability to do. But if I just sit here and do nothing because I don't want to do anything "on my own", believing that God's "sovereign purpose" will determine whether I am financially well off or not, then I am missing the point. This is not to say we should "pursue" wealth, because I don't believe we should. Our focus should always be on Jesus. But whether you succeed financially in life is largely (but not entirely) dependent upon what you do with the abilities God has given you.

see above, and try to respond to what I actually said, even if your response is a question of clarity rather than trying to reinvent what I actually did say...thanks, I'm sure that will help our communication

 

[razzelflabben]

Proverbs 10:4 (NIV)
Lazy hands make a man poor, but diligent hands bring wealth.
​

What brings wealth or poverty? The choice of your hands. Lazy hands make a man poor, diligent hands bring wealth. Note that it is the choice of your hands, not God's sovereignty, that determines this.

say what???? I dont' understand what you are asking....I've read it three times now, and I still don't understand what you don't understand...[quote]
Proverbs 6:10-11 (NIV)

A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest-and poverty will come on you like a bandit and scarcity like an armed man.
​

Here again, a lazy person, or someone who has chosen not to use the ability God has blessed them with, brings poverty on them.

Proverbs 13:23 (NIV)
A poor man's field may produce abundant food, but injustice sweeps it away.
​

What's interesting, is not one of these scriptures says that God makes people wealthy and/or poor for His "sovereign purposes". It says just the opposite, that diligent hands make wealthy, and lazy hands make poor.[/quote] so you only read the passages that support what you want to believe? these passages tell us that the ability to work, is given to us by God, our ability to choose is ours...the previous passages tell us that even wealth is given to us by God...so why can you read these but not the others? Isn't all of scripture necessary for complete understanding of what God wants us to know?

IOW, this actually affirms what I've been saying all along. It is largely up to us what we do with the ability that God blesses us with.

that, like money is necessary to clear a financial debt, has never been in question... what makes you think that it is....the point in question is where wealth comes from and was addressed previously, complete with passages you ignored...how about trying to deal with the point I am making instead of reinventing it to say something I am not?

 

[probinson]

so you only read the passages that support what you want to believe?

Um, no. Those are the passages you posted. That's why I addressed them;

Now that that issue is cleared up, how about the rest of the passages? You know, the one's where God says He gives wealth and poverty....

Just for the record...Prov. 10:4
Prov. 6:10-11

Prov. 13:23

The thing is though, not one of those passages said that "[God] gives wealth and poverty". See my post above.

 

[razzelflabben]

Um, no. Those are the passages you posted. That's why I addressed them;

what about the passages posted just previously to these? Why didn't you address them?

The thing is though, not one of those passages said that "[God] gives wealth and poverty". See my post above.

right, those passages are all in the previous post I referred to, the post in which you focused only on the passage that said what you wanted it to...check out all the passages listed in post...#163, there are lots of passages there that you did not address, passages that tell us that God gives wealth...

 

[probinson]

what about the passages posted just previously to these? Why didn't you address them? right, those passages are all in the previous post I referred to, the post in which you focused only on the passage that said what you wanted it to...check out all the passages listed in post...#163, there are lots of passages there that you did not address, passages that tell us that God gives wealth...

For starters, if you want me to comment on scriptures you've posted, please post the scriptures and not just the references. Also, when you say "scripture says", or "scripture tells us", please be more specific. If you believe that "scripture says" something, please post the scripture that says it.

But I'll do your work for you one last time;

Proverbs 22:1-2 (NIV)
A good name is more desirable than great riches; to be esteemed is better than silver or gold. Rich and poor have this in common: The LORD is the Maker of them all.
​

This is not saying God makes people "rich" or "poor". It is saying that whether you are rich or poor, God is your Maker.

1 Samuel 2:7-8 (NIV)
The LORD sends poverty and wealth; he humbles and he exalts. He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the ash heap; he seats them with princes and has them inherit a throne of honor. "For the foundations of the earth are the LORD's; upon them he has set the world.
​

Ah, finally a scripture that seems to support your theology.

However, we must consider "the whole counsel of scripture", right? In doing so, it is clear, even from the other scriptures that you've posted, that whether or not we will have financial success is very largely dependent upon our own actions and choices. Lazy hands, diligent hands, etc.

2 Corinthians 8:13-15 (NIV)
For this is not for the ease of others and for your affliction, but by way of equality-- at this present time your abundance being a supply for their need, so that their abundance also may become a supply for your need, that there may be equality; as it is written, "HE WHO gathered MUCH DID NOT HAVE TOO MUCH, AND HE WHO gathered LITTLE HAD NO LACK."
​

This does not say anything about God sending wealth.

Deuteronomy 8:17 (NIV)
You may say to yourself, "My power and the strength of my hands have produced this wealth for me."
​

As we've already covered, it is God who gives us the power to obtain wealth. It is not by my power, which is what this scripture says.

Proverbs 10:22 (NIV)
The blessing of the LORD brings wealth, and he adds no trouble to it.
​

I'm not sure what your point is here. The Amplified Bible says that God's blessing brings "[true] riches". I don't disagree with that.

Matthew 6:24-25, 31 (NIV)
"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes?
....
So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?'
​

Again, I don't see the point you're trying to make. This does not say that God sends wealth. It simply says that God will take care of us.

And again, none of these scriptures "...tell us that God gives us wealth."

Now, have I missed any scriptures that you've posted? If I have, please post them (scripture and reference), and I'll address them as well.

 

[KingZzub]

Actually Pete, 1 Sam. 2.7-8 is in the permissive sense of the word to impoverish. It simply means the Lord allows people to become poor.

Or the word here translated poor can also mean inheritance, and is used 116 times in the Hebrew to mean inheritance, and is only translated poor 4 times, which is a rare meaning of the word.

Replace poverty with inheritance and it makes more sense in Hebrew and better fits in the context of the verse.