"Silver or gold I do not have"

[JimB]

*****

Yes it does, if you pursue it in such a manner that is in itself costly. So a lot of money may be your need for your particular setup, but that don't mean evangelism, teaching, and training themselves are expensive, but rather your approach to these endeavours are.

*****

Bingo!!

Thanx, FS.

The first century church did not have any of the material stuff we now have—no printing presses, no airplanes, not TV networks, no Christian radio stations, no mailing lists, no Christian universities or seminaries, no Internet websites, no gaudy cathedrals, nada anything, and yet they were able, within one generation, to turn the world upside down with the Gospel. What they were were poor and persecuted people, the outcastes of Greco-Roman society, whose emphasis was strictly on missional witnessing; not on spurious fundraising to support overly expensive “outreaches”.

Even with all of our Western money, Americans are no longer reaching the world for Christ as we once did. It is poverty stricken Third World countries (in Africa, Asia, and Latin America) that are doing it. We recently had a Malawian missionary stay in our home who came from the AOG in Malawi, Africa’s most poverty stricken country. He was here on shoestring compared to the financial resources afforded American missionaries. (In fact, he stayed in our home to avoid an expensive hotel room, which he couldn’t afford.) He was a missionary to the USA—we were his mission field!! Factoid: the desperately poor AOG churches in Malawi had grown 400% during the 1990s (the AOG Decade of Harvest) without financial help, while their stinking rich American couterparts had actually declined in the number of church plants, despite all their money, and techy tools and toys, proving (once again) that the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, (2 Cor. 10.4).

I rest my case.

~Jim

On Mount Moriah, it was not Isaac God wanted – it was Abraham.​

 

[KingZzub]

No one is saying that the key to church growth and evangelism isn't the power of people on fire, Jim.

But three simp[le questions before your case rests:

1. Does your church meet in a building?
2. Does your church pay any one a salary?
3. Does your church have any sundry costs at all (photocopying, etc.)?

If you you use money! We are not Malawi, and the very fact that he was staying in your house means that he was using your money and what you have earned to help him preach the gospel. Would he have been as effective sleeping rough I wonder? Did you feed him when he was with you? Did the groceries cost money I wonder?

Your case isn't as closed as you would think.

Love,
Benjamin

PS Malawi is not the most poverty stricken nation in Africa, Burundi is. Apologies for nitpicking!

 

[JimB]

No one is saying that the key to church growth and evangelism isn't the power of people on fire, Jim.

But three simp[le questions before your case rests:

1. Does your church meet in a building?
2. Does your church pay any one a salary?
3. Does your church have any sundry costs at all (photocopying, etc.)?

If you you use money! We are not Malawi, and the very fact that he was staying in your house means that he was using your money and what you have earned to help him preach the gospel. Would he have been as effective sleeping rough I wonder? Did you feed him when he was with you? Did the groceries cost money I wonder?

Your case isn't as closed as you would think.

Love,
Benjamin

PS Malawi is not the most poverty stricken nation in Africa, Burundi is. Apologies for nitpicking!

Of course we meet in a building and I get a salary (this is not a hobby for me), but I believe that the Gospel would survive just fine without any of that. Meeting in church buildings became necessary when the number of disciples had grown (without a whole lot of money, BTW) to the point a house could no longer contain them. The earliest church building discovered (so far) was as early as the 200s. The following is from ChristianHistory.com:

Unless claims for recent discoveries of early Christian meeting places are confirmed, the earliest building certainly devoted to Christian use is at Dura Europos on the Euphrates River in eastern Roman Syria. It was a house that came into Christian possession and was remodeled in the 240s. Two rooms were combined to form the assembly room, and another room became a baptistery—the only room decorated with pictures. Dura was destroyed by the Sassanian Persians in 256, so the house's use as a church was short-lived.
​

My guess is, with the rapid development of modern archaeology, church buildings will be found of even earlier date than this. But such buildings are a mere convenience, not a requirement, for being Christ's church.

Could we meet in inexpensive homes? Sure. But meeting in a common building is a convenience and we are willing to share the expense for the privilege of meeting together. We do not need it but are willing to kick in our fair share for the privilege of meeting toegether. But, FYI, the building we use is a metal building and we sit on folding tables at folding chairs.

As for my salary? I am happy to receive one but that is the decision of the members of our church. We/I could make it just fine without a salary—in fact, we did for a couple of years at the beginning (and our fellowship was growing then faster than we are now—go figure!) If I have to go back to serving salary-free, I would still consider it a privilege and would gladly do it. IOW, a salary is not a requirement for effectiveness.

Do we “need” all those sundry costs you mentioned. Heck no! We could pare the budget down to the bone and still be an effective witness in our community.

~Jim

On Mount Moriah, it was not Isaac God wanted – it was Abraham.​

 

[JimB]

*****

PS Malawi is not the most poverty stricken nation in Africa, Burundi is. Apologies for nitpicking!

Cite your source. Until you do, I say Malawi is the poorest country in Africa (in per capita income).

But if it is Burundi … so what? I’m sure they are so busy looking for their next meal that it doesn’t matter much to them who gets the blue ribbon.

~Jim

On Mount Moriah, it was not Isaac God wanted – it was Abraham.​

 

[KingZzub]

So you don't need a building but you have one? You don't need a salary but you take one. You don't need to spend the money to advance the kingdom but you do anyway.

You call someone who says that it is necessary to spend money on soul winning out of focus, yet you are spending - according to you - money on what are non-necessities for Christians.

I am struggling to see how you can cope with the incongruity. I think that saying that it is not a hobby is an insufficient explanation. I don't draw a salary from the church I am planting at present, but I can assure you that this is not a hobby. Your comment seems denigrating to the thousands of bi-vocational pastors who are serving God.

Either don't draw a salary and don't meet in a hall; or draw them and admit that it takes money (as one of the elements, not the only one or even the main one) to extend the kingdom of God.

To quote Thatcher, even the good Samaritan had money or he would not have been able to help.

Does your church know that you consider your salary and the building they meet in non-essential and they should give their money to something essential?

 

[probinson]

The first century church did not have any of the material stuff we now have—no printing presses, no airplanes, not TV networks, no Christian radio stations, no mailing lists, no Christian universities or seminaries, no Internet websites, no gaudy cathedrals, nada anything,

Interesting...

We recently had a Malawian missionary stay in our home who came from the AOG in Malawi, Africa’s most poverty stricken country.

Hang on a second... how did he get all the way from Malawi, Africa to Texas in the USA? I mean, you just got done saying that the first century church did not have airplanes (which they obviously didn't) and that somehow proves that we don't need them. So if we don't need airplanes, how the heck did this missionary get to your church from Africa?

 

[JimB]

Interesting...



Hang on a second... how did he get all the way from Malawi, Africa to Texas in the USA?

*****

Well, he depended on Mammon, I guess.

You are missing my point, though. I know having funds to do the work of God is a nice convenience but it is not the overriding necessity we often think it is.

~Jim

On Mount Moriah, it was not Isaac God wanted – it was Abraham.​

 

[probinson]

Do we “need” all those sundry costs you mentioned. Heck no! We could pare the budget down to the bone and still be an effective witness in our community.

So then I guess that begs the question, why don't you?

 

[KingZzub]

Cite your source. Until you do, I say Malawi is the poorest country in Africa (in per capita income).

But if it is Burundi … so what? I’m sure they are so busy looking for their next meal that it doesn’t matter much to them who gets the blue ribbon.

~Jim

On Mount Moriah, it was not Isaac God wanted – it was Abraham.​

List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[probinson]

You are missing my point, though. I know having funds to do the work of God is a nice convenience but it is not the overriding necessity we often think it is.

No, I get your point, and to some degree, I agree with what you're saying. This Gospel will be proclaimed regardless of what we do.

However, I think you're taking it too far, and in doing so, appearing somewhat double-minded by meeting in a building you claim you do not need that consumes finances while drawing an unnecessary salary (from your own description) from your church.

 

[KingZzub]

No, I get your point, and to some degree, I agree with what you're saying. This Gospel will be proclaimed regardless of what we do.

However, I think you're taking it too far, and in doing so, appearing somewhat double-minded by meeting in a building you claim you do not need that consumes finances while drawing an unnecessary salary (from your own description) from your church.

It does seem double minded to me as well Jim. Either money is necessary or not. You are happy for a misionary to live in a house, fly in a plane, and eat food. You are happy to meet in a building and draw a salary from the church.

Or is it just Word of Faith Christians that you have a problem with using money, like the head of the AoG in the UK who is in his own words personally offended that the ministries on TV in the UK are the ones with the money, as if the TV companies are going to operate on a gratis basis!

 

[JimB]

It does seem double minded to me as well Jim. Either money is necessary or not. You are happy for a misionary to live in a house, fly in a plane, and eat food. You are happy to meet in a building and draw a salary from the church.

Or is it just Word of Faith Christians that you have a problem with using money, like the head of the AoG in the UK who is in his own words personally offended that the ministries on TV in the UK are the ones with the money, as if the TV companies are going to operate on a gratis basis!

Okay, money is necessary.

Sheesh.


Like most arguments in this forum, this one is going around in circles.

This thread reminds me of a friend I once had who thought he “won” arguments by talk-talk-talking over people until they finally shut up in frustration. Only, he didn’t win, he just outlasted them.

~Jim

On Mount Moriah, it was not Isaac God wanted – it was Abraham.​

On Mount Moriah, it was not Isaac God wanted – it was Abraham.​

 

[probinson]

Okay, money is necessary.
Sheesh.

Like most arguments in this forum, this one is going around in circles.

This thread reminds me of a friend I once had who thought he “won” arguments by talk-talk-talking over people until they finally shut up in frustration. Only, he didn’t win, he just outlasted them.

No one is talk-talk-talking over you. We're simply pointing out inconsistencies with your argument and asking you to clarify. FTR, I'm not trying to "win" anything.

You said in earlier post that you currently meet in a building that you don't need, and you accept a salary that you could do without. That begs the question, "Why?"

If it is as you say and money does nothing to further the Kingdom of God, why do you utilize monetary funds for a building and accept a salary?

 

[JimB]

No one is talk-talk-talking over you. We're simply pointing out inconsistencies with your argument and asking you to clarify. FTR, I'm not trying to "win" anything.

You said in earlier post that you currently meet in a building that you don't need, and you accept a salary that you could do without. That begs the question, "Why?"

If it is as you say and money does nothing to further the Kingdom of God, why do you utilize monetary funds for a building and accept a salary?

No, Pete, what we are doing is nitpicking holes in each others’ arguments. After a while all this talk-talk-talking and one-upsmanship wears thin.

So

~Jim

On Mount Moriah, it was not Isaac God wanted – it was Abraham.​

 

[probinson]

No, Pete, what we are doing is nitpicking holes in each others’ arguments.

That might be what you're doing, but it's not what I'm doing.

FTR, I simply was asking an answer for this question;
___________________________________________________

Do we “need” all those sundry costs you mentioned. Heck no! We could pare the budget down to the bone and still be an effective witness in our community.

​

So then I guess that begs the question, why don't you?

 

[JimB]

That might be what you're doing, but it's not what I'm doing.

*****

Riiiiiigghhtt!!

~Jim

On Mount Moriah, it was not Isaac God wanted – it was Abraham.​

 

[JimB]

*****

​

So then I guess that begs the question, why don't you?

Because, Pete, doing it with money is just easier (though not always more effective). I have no problem with money, I just don’t want to place to much emphasis on its importance as the solution to deeper problems. Throwing money at problems is a solution that liberal politicians love … only it just doesn’t work as well in fact as it does on paper.

Jesus did say, in explaining the parable of the shrewd manager, Use your worldly resources to benefit others and make friends. Then, when your earthly possessions are gone, they will welcome you to an eternal home. (Luke 16.9)

That’s just good common sense.

You can respond to this, and I am sure you will find a flaw or two in my reasoning, but I think I am moving on to more interesting (to me) and important (to me) topics than money.

See you in another thread.

~Jim

On Mount Moriah, it was not Isaac God wanted – it was Abraham.​

 

[probinson]

I have no problem with money, I just don’t want to place to much emphasis on its importance as the solution to deeper problems.

But we're not talking about deeper problems. We're talking about a church building and a pastor's salary.

I don't think anyone here is placing too much emphasis on money or suggesting that it is a solution to "deeper problems". But the fact remains that money is needed for buildings, be they church buildings or houses. This is not placing too much emphasis on money. This is simply recognizing and acknowledging that in this world, things cost money.

 

[KingZzub]

Come on Jim,

Rather than answer fair questions you accuse our character and motives.

Maybe you should be a politician rather than a pastor!!!

 

[razzelflabben]

Ran across this passage, I wonder how much trouble I can get into posting it...?

Acts 8:18-23
18When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money 19and said, "Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."
20Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. 23For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin."



seems to refer to the use on money in growing the Kingdom, as best I can tell