"Silver or gold I do not have"

[razzelflabben]

I agree in part but I would not say it that way. Money does not lie; riches do—you cannot serve God and mammon. It is the love of money that deceives us, not the money itself. The problem with lust is lust, not the opposite sex. The problem, it seems to me, when it comes to riches is greed and all of its ugly stepchildren it spawns, not money itself.

~Jim

On Mount Moriah, it was not Isaac God wanted – it was Abraham.​

Don't lies come from the enemy not from things? Doesn't our deception come from our own lustful desires....?

 

[JimB]

True but I believe the only weapon the devil has against believers is in his ability to deceive us—and he is the heavyweight champion of deception. Doesn’t the word “satan” itself mean deceiver?

~Jim

On Mount Moriah, it was not Isaac God wanted – it was Abraham.​

 

[razzelflabben]

True but I believe the only weapon the devil has against believers is in his ability to deceive us—and he is the heavyweight champion of deception. Doesn’t the word “satan” itself mean deceiver?

~Jim

On Mount Moriah, it was not Isaac God wanted – it was Abraham.​

that is the point, that is why money cannot be the enemy, why money cannot deceive...but rather the deceptions of money, the fleshly desires of greed that destroy, that pulls us away from God, not the money itself...Money or the love of money as it were is a tool of the enemy...a tool that deceives us into thinking that it is more valuable than the things that God wishes to give us....

 

[JimB]

that is the point, that is why money cannot be the enemy, why money cannot deceive...but rather the deceptions of money, the fleshly desires of greed that destroy, that pulls us away from God, not the money itself...Money or the love of money as it were is a tool of the enemy...a tool that deceives us into thinking that it is more valuable than the things that God wishes to give us....

While I think I understand, and even agree with those who defend the “prosperity” message, I also think it attracts more than its share of greedy people who see “godliness as a means of gain” (1 Tim 6.5). From such we are told to “withdraw ourselves.” Probably, the problem is in the modern connotation attached to the word “prosperity,” which has come to mean affluence (of the ostentatious kind--an earthly mansion and a Rolls Royce).

~Jim

On Mount Moriah, it was not Isaac God wanted – it was Abraham.​

 

[razzelflabben]

While I think I understand, and even agree with those who defend the “prosperity” message, I also think it attracts more than its share of greedy people who see “godliness as a means of gain” (1 Tim 6.5). From such we are told to “withdraw ourselves.” Probably, the problem is in the modern connotation attached to the word “prosperity,” which has come to mean affluence (of the ostentatious kind--an earthly mansion and a Rolls Royce).

~Jim

On Mount Moriah, it was not Isaac God wanted – it was Abraham.​

I wasn't necessarily talking about prosperity theology, I'm still trying to get answers to some of that....what I am suggesting is that when we fall prey to the temptations of money, it is not because of money at all but rather because of the deceptions of the Devil....that should change our ideas of what is good and bad, right and wrong with the theologies that we adopt when it comes to all issues, including but not limited to money....

 

[probinson]

I agree in part but I would not say it that way. Money does not lie; riches do—you cannot serve God and mammon. It is the love of money that deceives us, not the money itself. The problem with lust is lust, not the opposite sex. The problem, it seems to me, when it comes to riches is greed and all of its ugly stepchildren it spawns, not money itself.

Fair enough, but would you say that "wealth" and "riches" are interchangeable words?

I think when we talk about "riches", it's misleading, because we seem to be saying slightly different things. That's why I re-posted this link Balance posted, Global Rich List, so we can all see the many "riches" we all enjoy and often take for granted.

So I would agree with you that money itself is not a problem, regardless of the amount. That is what I've been trying to say all along.

 

[JimB]

Fair enough, but would you say that "wealth" and "riches" are interchangeable words?

I think when we talk about "riches", it's misleading, because we seem to be saying slightly different things. That's why I re-posted this link Balance posted, Global Rich List, so we can all see the many "riches" we all enjoy and often take for granted.

So I would agree with you that money itself is not a problem, regardless of the amount. That is what I've been trying to say all along.

There is no problem with being rich/wealthy providing one does not allow himself to be deceived by it.

That said, I do not believe that it is God’s will for every believer to be wealthy. For some Christians I know, if God gave them a million dollars today they would be two million in debt by this time next month.

~Jim

On Mount Moriah, it was not Isaac God wanted – it was Abraham.​

 

[lismore]

There were rich believers in the bible and there were poor ones.

What is most important is not rich or poor, but serving the Lord from your heart.

 

[razzelflabben]

There were rich believers in the bible and there were poor ones.

What is most important is not rich or poor, but serving the Lord from your heart.

if serving the Lord from your heart is the important thing, why do so many seek the "riches" "promised" in scripture rather than the things of God and service of the heart? I mean, if money wealth is a promise of God, why do we need to seek it? Why not seek HIm and let Him worry about fulfilling HIs promise?

 

[KingZzub]

I wonder who these people are seeking riches?

 

[probinson]

There is no problem with being rich/wealthy providing one does not allow himself to be deceived by it.

Agreed.

That said, I do not believe that it is God’s will for every believer to be wealthy. For some Christians I know, if God gave them a million dollars today they would be two million in debt by this time next month.

Well, here again, we probably should define the highly subjective term, "wealthy". I don't believe that God desires for every one to be a millionaire, but I do believe that God desires for His people to have their needs met and have an abundance to help others.

This doesn't just happen through some magical formula. People have to work and be good stewards of their money. These are all Biblical concepts that will contribute to one's financial prosperity.

 

[razzelflabben]

I wonder who these people are seeking riches?

? You've never seen or known people to seek riches? Hum...what do you think the lottery is all about? gambling? etc. if not seeking riches? What do you think greed is if not seeking riches?

I promised I'm not going to read into posts, but I'm gonna break that promise long enough to suggest that you might be reading into my question what is not there...you just might be assuming I'm talking about prosperity theology and not people in general, and yes, many who seek riches call themselves Christian but not all who seek riches believe in prosperity theology...so you might be wise to avoid reading what is not there.

 

[KingZzub]

I don't believe God wants everyone to be a millionaire either.

I define wealth as (and this is very much my own definition, a bit of Benology if you will - don't attack you have Jimology too!):

Enough money ensure you can pay for all of life's necessities.
Enough on top of that to enjoy life.
Enough on top of that to give whenever the Lord leads you to give with confidence and cheerfulness.

 

[probinson]

if serving the Lord from your heart is the important thing, why do so many seek the "riches" "promised" in scripture rather than the things of God and service of the heart? I mean, if money wealth is a promise of God, why do we need to seek it? Why not seek HIm and let Him worry about fulfilling HIs promise?

For the same reason people who needed healing sought healing.

In the song Audience of One by Big Daddy Weave, there is a line that sums it up nicely (emphasis added);

"....seeking Your face, and not only Your hand..."

If you look throughout scripture, you will find people seeking God's hand (provision) in conjunction with His face (presence).

It's interesting to note that when Jesus asked people what they wanted and they responded that they wanted healing, he did not admonish them for their response. He did not respond, "Why don't you seek Me and let me worry about your healing?"

Sometimes, my son will come to me and ask me if he can have something. IOW, he's seeking my hand. Other times, he just wants to sit in my lap. IOW, he's seeking my face.

There is nothing inherently wrong with seeking God's hand. In fact, I would go so far as to say I NEED God's hand, not because I desire riches, but because He IS;

He IS my Father.
He IS Lord of all.
He IS King of Kings.
He IS Lord of Lords.
He IS my Savior.
He IS my Healer.
He IS my Comforter.
He IS my Provider.
He IS my Peace.
He IS my Joy.
He IS my Strong Tower.
He IS my Shepherd.
He IS my Strength.
He IS my Salvation.
He IS my Counselor.
He IS my Protector.
He IS the air I breathe.
He IS the Creator.
He IS the Giver of Life.
He IS His Word.
He IS Great.
He IS Mighty.
He IS Love.
He IS Compassion.
He IS Grace.
He IS Mercy.
He IS Goodnes.
He IS Kindness.
He IS Truth.
He IS Light.

You can not separate who God IS from what God DOES.

 

[razzelflabben]

For the same reason people who needed healing sought healing.

In the song Audience of One by Big Daddy Weave, there is a line that sums it up nicely (emphasis added);

"....seeking Your face, and not only Your hand..."

If you look throughout scripture, you will find people seeking God's hand (provision) in conjunction with His face (presence).

I don't think that is what I was saying, but hey, no worries...If I try to explain what I was saying, it will be most likely taken as an insult of some kind.

It's interesting to note that when Jesus asked people what they wanted and they responded that they wanted healing, he did not admonish them for their response. He did not respond, "Why don't you seek Me and let me worry about your healing?"

actually, He did at one point, but again, no problem....

Sometimes, my son will come to me and ask me if he can have something. IOW, he's seeking my hand. Other times, he just wants to sit in my lap. IOW, he's seeking my face.

There is nothing inherently wrong with seeking God's hand. In fact, I would go so far as to say I NEED God's hand, not because I desire riches, but because He IS;

He IS my Father.
He IS Lord of all.
He IS King of Kings.
He IS Lord of Lords.
He IS my Savior.
He IS my Healer.
He IS my Comforter.
He IS my Provider.
He IS my Peace.
He IS my Joy.
He IS my Strong Tower.
He IS my Shepherd.
He IS my Strength.
He IS my Salvation.
He IS my Counselor.
He IS my Protector.
He IS the air I breathe.
He IS the Creator.
He IS the Giver of Life.
He IS His Word.
He IS Great.
He IS Mighty.
He IS Love.
He IS Compassion.
He IS Grace.
He IS Mercy.
He IS Goodnes.
He IS Kindness.
He IS Truth.
He IS Light.

You can not separate who God IS from what God DOES.

Cool beans, try not read into my post what isnt' there, okay?

 

[KingZzub]

? You've never seen or known people to seek riches? Hum...what do you think the lottery is all about? gambling? etc. if not seeking riches? What do you think greed is if not seeking riches?

I promised I'm not going to read into posts, but I'm gonna break that promise long enough to suggest that you might be reading into my question what is not there...you just might be assuming I'm talking about prosperity theology and not people in general, and yes, many who seek riches call themselves Christian but not all who seek riches believe in prosperity theology...so you might be wise to avoid reading what is not there.

Originally you said:

if serving the Lord from your heart is the important thing, why do so many seek the "riches" "promised" in scripture rather than the things of God

now you say:

You've never seen or known people to seek riches? Hum...what do you think the lottery is all about? gambling? etc. if not seeking riches? ... you might be reading into my question what is not there...you just might be assuming I'm talking about prosperity theology and not people in general

I just want to point out to you two things:

1. You said that many seek the riches promised in Scripture
2. You said that many seek riches rather than the things of God

It was your reference to Scripture and the things of God that led me to infer that you were talking about Christians seeking after riches.

I do not believe for example that a lottery participant is seeking the riches promised in Scripture. I don not believe that they are seeking riches rather than the things of God because they simply do not know they need the things of God.

I am very glad that you are talking about non-Christians who are seeking riches, and not Christians who are Word of Faith and believe God's promises.

However because you mentioned Scripture that is why I assumed you were referring to Christians.

Regards,
Ben

 

[razzelflabben]

Originally you said:



now you say:



I just want to point out to you two things:

1. You said that many seek the riches promised in Scripture
2. You said that many seek riches rather than the things of God

It was your reference to Scripture and the things of God that led me to infer that you were talking about Christians seeking after riches.

they are two different things, riches, and the riches promised in scripture...

I do not believe for example that a lottery participant is seeking the riches promised in Scripture. I don not believe that they are seeking riches rather than the things of God because they simply do not know they need the things of God.

what of those that are studied in the word?

I am very glad that you are talking about non-Christians who are seeking riches, and not Christians who are Word of Faith and believe God's promises.

However because you mentioned Scripture that is why I assumed you were referring to Christians.

Regards,
Ben

Actually, I am referring to anyone, but that is a different matter...I wonder why you would assume that the problem isn't the same for both

 

[razzelflabben]

Matthew 20:29-34 (NIV)
As Jesus and his disciples were leaving Jericho, a large crowd followed him. Two blind men were sitting by the roadside, and when they heard that Jesus was going by, they shouted, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"

The crowd rebuked them and told them to be quiet, but they shouted all the louder, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!" Jesus stopped and called them. "What do you want me to do for you?" he asked. "Lord," they answered, "we want our sight." Jesus had compassion on them and touched their eyes. Immediately they received their sight and followed him.
​

So here we see 2 men, seeking Jesus because "[they] want [their] sight". Jesus even asked them, "What do you want me TO DO for you?"

no problem, that was agreed to already and not what I was saying...

Note that He did not admonish them for seeking His hand of healing, and lecture them about how they should just seek "Him" and let the healing just happen. No, it says He had compassion on them when they asked Him for something they wanted, and He gave it to them.

who suggested a lecture or (I don't know, scratching my head....)

Likewise, if you need money for something, it is not necessarily wrong to seek the hand of God. He is after all, Jehovah Jireh, our Provider.

Yep...never suggested otherwise, not sure where you got the idea I did...

 

[nephilimiyr]

True but I believe the only weapon the devil has against believers is in his ability to deceive us—and he is the heavyweight champion of deception. Doesn’t the word “satan” itself mean deceiver?

~Jim

On Mount Moriah, it was not Isaac God wanted – it was Abraham.​

I thought Satan meant "The adversary", but either way you are right about him being the heaveyweight champion of deception.

 

[KM Richards]

do you know why Jesus overturned the tables of the temple?

Also, the bible says that the rich man is the one whose daily needs are met....much different than our version of rich....

Yes, they were selling all the things needed to come in and do sacrifices under the law at inflated prices, and much of it was faulty goods that shouldn't have been used under the Law

An even richer man is one that has his daily needs met so abundantly that he can afford to reach out and help meet the daily needs of others.

That's much more beneficial than just focusing on meeting one's personal needs only (I got mine, to heck with everyone else!...does that sound like the Father?)


Like it, or not...while on Club Earth we will have to have money to obtain good and services. Jesus had to obtain goods and services as he didn't live on an island of separation from society.

So...here's a good question to think about:

Which is better...satan's followers to be in control of vast amounts of wealth so they can spread their message of death and destruction to the masses;

Or, would it be better for God's people to have control of vast amounts of wealth so they can spread the message of life and fellowship with the Father thru Jesus to the masses?

I mean, who benefits from Christians not having money...God, or the devil?