Some Evangelical Christians evangelizing in predominantly Christian countries

[Gleb Yakunin]

I am afraid that hair color (as well as eye color) has become the focus of this discussion. My evidence is simply that Pella, Iowa, which is a thoroughly Dutch town with many Reformed churches now has a thriving Orthodox Church. This particular church has every evidence of being composed primarily of individuals who come from Dutch Christan families. How and why they left their churches to deconvert to Orthodoxy remains open to discussion. I have a friend in Pella who may be able to shed more light on the situation. Pella is a small, close-knit town so there are no secrets. If the Orthodox Church in Pella was at all like the Greek Orthodox Church in my own home town it would be entirely composed of ethnic Greeks (or whatever ethnicity this particular church is). To this day the Greek Orthodox Church in my home town has black-haired, browned eyed Greeks with standard Greek surnames. The only effort at outreach they make is the wonderful annual Greek fair to raise money for the church.

Yes, it's a shame that your example is being run into the ground by those who can't defend as to why the OC does the same as all the other's.

 

[Thekla]

Yes, it's a shame that your example is being run into the ground by those who can't defend as to why the OC does the same as all the other's.

Its the lack of factual evidence to support the position that I find questionable. The evidence provided is based on physical characteristics that are common to many ethnicities (and frequently in evidence in the EO Churches of Russian and Serbian origin).

 

[Gleb Yakunin]

1. Your evidence for the ethnic make-up of the parish is based on hair color; the hair color you offer as evidence of Dutch ethnicity is present also in Greek, Serbian, Russian, etc. ethnicities.

2. The Church you refer to is of Russian origin (OCA); the Russians have more blonds than the % of Greek blonds.

3. I have belonged to 3 Greek parishes; 2 in the south, one in the north of the US. I have attended several others. None of then have been "monoethnic".

4. The US population is transient, ie. people of different ethnicities move around. Unless Pella has laws governing which ethnicities may live in Pella, it is unlikely that the town is occupied soley by those of Dutch parentage.

5. Seeking converts among other Churches is not typical at all in the EO. I have known many many converts to EO -- they all came of their own volition, not through an attempt to get them to leave their denomination.

6. Have you conducted an ethnic analysis at your local GO Church, or is this a presumption based on hair color ?

Lord have mercy,

now you are doing it, implying that all OCA parishes only have blonds as members.

 

[Thekla]

Lord have mercy,

now you are doing it, implying that all OCA parishes only have blonds as members.

No, if you reread my post, I stated that the Russians have a higher percentage of blonds than the Greek ethnicity.

 

[Gleb Yakunin]

No, if you reread my post, I stated that the Russians have a higher percentage of blonds than the Greek ethnicity.

What Russians? Where did that come from?

Regarding the OCA as being Russian, or having a large Russian membership, you are wrong.

True, The Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church in America was granted autocephaly by the Russian Orthodox Church in 1970, and was renamed the Orthodox Church in America.

 

[Thekla]

FYI:

a link on light hair color distributions in Europe and near Europe:
Frost: Why Do Europeans Have So Many Hair and Eye Colors?

 

[Thekla]

What Russians? Where did that come from?

Regarding the OCA as being Russian, or having a large Russian membership, you are wrong.

True, The Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church in America was granted autocephaly by the Russian Orthodox Church in 1970, and was renamed the Orthodox Church in America.

I said its origins were Russian.

(what I stated can be found in my previous post, following the #2)

 

[Philothei]

This conversation resorted to hair coloring? Hey Greek ladies are blond in their middle age years would that qualify? Why is this so important? Russian ancestry has been traced in the OCA church.. And it is a fact from the way they worship most using slavonic chanting in their services. That is obviously their church tradition.

 

[prodromos]

I am not complaining at all, but merely answering Thekla's question which was if any Orthodox church has proselytized (missionized, if you will) another Christian denomination. The answer is yes.

How can you answer "Yes" when you provide no evidence of Orthodox actively seeking to convert peoples of another Christian faith?

Still, does it not seem just a bit peculiar that this church would suddenly pop up with these fair-haired members with lovely Dutch surnames if it is making every human attempt to avoid gaining members from the town?

Not turning away those who wish to convert is not proselytizing by any definition of the term.

This particular church has every evidence of being composed primarily of individuals who come from Dutch Christan families. How and why they left their churches to deconvert to Orthodoxy remains open to discussion.

Since you now state you have no knowledge of how they came to be members of this Church, I ask again how you can state with any confidence that this Church has engaged in proselytizing? The truth is you can't

John

 

[Gleb Yakunin]

This conversation resorted to hair coloring? Hey Greek ladies are blond in their middle age years would that qualify? Why is this so important? Russian ancestry has been traced in the OCA church.. And it is a fact from the way they worship most using Slavonic chanting in their services. That is obviously their church tradition.

The OCA's I'm familiar with use the Byzantine Chant, is that Slavonic?

 

[prodromos]

5. Seeking converts among other Churches is not typical at all in the EO. I have known many many converts to EO -- they all came of their own volition, not through an attempt to get them to leave their denomination.

This was certainly my own experience and that of others I know who converted to Orthodoxy.

John

 

[Philothei]

The OCA's I'm familiar with use the Byzantine Chant, is that Slavonic?

Maybe one or two do ...but in general yeah they use the slavonic chant. Their vestments also are the Russian style. Also following the Typikon of St. Savva in their Liturgical cycle. That is why it defines them as Russians in their practices

 

[cobweb]

Maybe one or two do ...but in general yeah they use the slavonic chant. Their vestments also are the Russian style. Also following the Typikon of St. Savva in their Liturgical cycle. That is why it defines them as Russians in their practices

What she said. I am OCA and in the choir. We do a few byzantine arrangements, but the vast majority of our hymns are slavonic-style chant (in english). About 3/4 of our elderly speak russian fluently.

 

[Gleb Yakunin]

Maybe one or two do ...but in general yeah they use the slavonic chant. Their vestments also are the Russian style. Also following the Typikon of St. Savva in their Liturgical cycle. That is why it defines them as Russians in their practices

I'm not disagreeing with you about style of worship inside OCA, only of the make-up of membership. OCA using English draws many from all walks of life not just from Russian descent.

I wish we could agree to get back on topic of the OP. Evangelism is so important and the correct use and misuse is most interesting.

 

[Philothei]

I am not really understanding you are you saying we do not evangelize or that we do? Where do you see the misuse?
And I agree OCA is a mixed bag and they are the ones who do attract the most converts at this present time due their usage of english. Although we do not have actual data that would enable us to draw conclusions to that effect. We can ONLY speculate. The GOA and the Antiocheans both also attract a number of converts. Especially the Antiochians since their usage of English is also high.

There are also GOA parishes in the midwest where the population is small that they are made up of equal numbers of converts, Greeks, Russians etc. and the same applies to all small churches that exist throught USA. That for sure is a "mixed bag" where nationalities overlap for any given Juristiction.Orthodox people tent to go to their closest Orthodox Church if they cannot afford travelling more than an hour to their own ethnic Church.

 

[Gleb Yakunin]

What she said. I am OCA and in the choir. We do a few byzantine arrangements, but the vast majority of our hymns are slavonic-style chant (in english). About 3/4 of our elderly speak russian fluently.

Thank you cobweb. I always wanted to know if other parishes did the same.

Trying to stay within Dorothea's OP, when the OCA was granted autocephaly, do to evangelism, that was a grandslam for the Lord in America.

 

[Philothei]

Can you explain what you mean by that?

 

[Gleb Yakunin]

Can you explain what you mean by that?

sure, I'll try, which part?

...the grandslam for the Lord in America remark was meant to show what good use of evangelism can do.

 

[Thekla]

I'm not disagreeing with you about style of worship inside OCA, only of the make-up of membership. OCA using English draws many from all walks of life not just from Russian descent.

I wish we could agree to get back on topic of the OP. Evangelism is so important and the correct use and misuse is most interesting.

Of course, the OCA is not entirely ethnically Russian. However, as their origin is Russian, it would be expected that they would have a greater percentage of Russians than (for ex.) Lebanese.

 

[Philothei]

Are you implying the OCA has not done a good job evangelizing?
I am totally lost here ... and if you are not willing to explain i think there is no point on having this conversation
I also mentioned that they use the special typicon that Russians do but you did not seem to pay any attention to that either..

*sigh*