Some Evangelical Christians evangelizing in predominantly Christian countries

[bbbbbbb]

True... When I was a Baptist (growing up) our church was sending missionaries to Russia, and using this manual. Later on, at my grandmother's funeral, I met an Orthodox priest, and realized everything I was taught about the Orthodox was lies...

9 years later I was baptized into the Orthodox Church... And I never really knew what a 'personal relationship with God' (evangelical catchphrase) was until becoming Orthodox...

Just of of curiosity, why were you rebaptized? The Catholic Church would recognize your original baptism as having been valid. Is this not also the case in the Orthodox Church?

 

[Livindesert]

Does anyone else see the sad irony, people calling themselves "Christians" purposley teaching lies about others?

Not lies just a different point of view.

 

[Dorothea]

Just of of curiosity, why were you rebaptized? The Catholic Church would recognize your original baptism as having been valid. Is this not also the case in the Orthodox Church?

From my experiences in the Antiochian and Greek Orthodox Churches, one is baptized if they were not baptized by immerison in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

[boswd]

Not lies just a different point of view.

If that's what you guys call it nowadays.

 

[Julina]

Not lies just a different point of view.

No, many of them are outright lies or misunderstandings. people should educate themselves first.

 

[katherine2001]

From my experiences in the Antiochian and Greek Orthodox Churches, one is baptized if they were not baptized by immerison in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The same is true with the OCA, and I believe the Russian Church as well (I know that St. Elizabeth the New Martyr (Grand Duchess Elizabeth) and her sister were brought in by Chrismation only.

 

[prodromos]

Just of of curiosity, why were you rebaptized? The Catholic Church would recognize your original baptism as having been valid. Is this not also the case in the Orthodox Church?

Simple answer. If a sacrament is performed outside the Church, it is not considered to be a sacrament of the Church.

John

 

[Yeznik]

Just of of curiosity, why were you rebaptized? The Catholic Church would recognize your original baptism as having been valid. Is this not also the case in the Orthodox Church?

A priest told me the following story.

He was asked to marry a couple whom the women was not a part of the Armenian Orthodox Church. He, the priest, asked if she was baptized, and she responded yes. He then asked her if she was baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and again she responded yes. Even after asking these questions, the priest told me something didn't feel right, and asked her to produce the baptismal certificate. When the bride to be returned to the priest and presented certificate and it stated that she was baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, the prophet Muhammad, Buddha and a list of other names.

 

[Dorothea]

The same is true with the OCA, and I believe the Russian Church as well (I know that St. Elizabeth the New Martyr (Grand Duchess Elizabeth) and her sister were brought in by Chrismation only.

Yes. My husband was baptized when he was an adolescent in the UCC in the name of the Trinity, and he was only Chrismated into the Antiochian Church when he converted.

 

[Livindesert]

Simple answer. If a sacrament is performed outside the Church, it is not considered to be a sacrament of the Church.

John

So to the E.O. if someone is outside the eastern church they are considered non-christian in your view?

 

[Livindesert]

From my experiences in the Antiochian and Greek Orthodox Churches, one is baptized if they were not baptized by immerison in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Interesting so it chages depending on the priest if he will accept a Baptism as valid.

 

[Dorothea]

Interesting so it chages dependinf on the priest if he will accept a Baptism as valid.

I don't know. I haven't had that experience, but it seems like it may.

 

[katherine2001]

Interesting so it chages depending on the priest if he will accept a Baptism as valid.

Actually, it is the bishop that makes the final decision.

 

[Dorothea]

Actually, it is the bishop that makes the final decision.

True. Don't know why that didn't come to my mind. My husband had to produce his baptism certificate to the priest to give to his bishop.

 

[prodromos]

So to the E.O. if someone is outside the eastern church they are considered non-christian in your view?

No that is not what I said, they are considered outside the E.O. Church. The only place that the E.O. Church can be sure of the practice, theology and grace behind the sacraments performed in a Church, is within the E.O. Church. Outside of her bounds, she can only be agnostic.
I should also point out that when the Church receives someone by Chrismation or Confession, it does not mean that the Church recognises the efficacy of the previous baptism, rather the Church is filling the previous baptism with Grace and making it a valid sacrament of the Church.

John

 

[Bro_Sam]

Why do some Evangelical Christians go to such countries that are predominantly Christian, such as South America, Greece, or Russia (for examples) and try to preach the word of Christ and such when these people are already Christian? Why not go to other countries who have not heard the gospel or are of different religions, such as Muslim, Hindu, etc.? Doesn't make sense to me.

I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but South America isn't a country.

Something else you may not be aware of is that people are not Christians or not Christians based on geographic location.

Our church sponsors eight missionaries and their families, some of them in South America and Russia.

We get regular updates and, while you say that we should not be sharing the Gospel in Russia, our missionaries to Russia regularly tell us that Russia is an amazing mission field that is white and ready to be harvested.

 

[Dorothea]

I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but South America isn't a country.

Something else you may not be aware of is that people are not Christians or not Christians based on geographic location.

Our church sponsors eight missionaries and their families, some of them in South America and Russia.

We get regular updates and, while you say that we should not be sharing the Gospel in Russia, our missionaries to Russia regularly tell us that Russia is an amazing mission field that is white and ready to be harvested.

Are you evangelizing in Russia to the atheists or the the Russian Orthodox Christians? I've seen evidence that both have been going on, and there is no reason for Evangelicals to be trying to convert the Russian Orthodox (and their native Christian religion for the past 1000+ years) to their more recent belief system. This is wrong, imo. Now, if one is going there to help revitalize Orthodoxy for some of the Russian Orthodox whose faith had maybe waned because of the past 70 years of oppression and persecution by the Communists, I'll all for it.

South America, yes, is a continent. I am aware of that. And South America does have many Christians there....and from what I've read, mostly Catholics, so why bother going there unless one is trying to help the poor there without converting?

If Evangelical groups are going to countries just to evangelize....share the Gospel, they'd be better off going to China, the M.E., India, etc. where they can reach those who haven't heard of Christ.

 

[Bro_Sam]

Are you evangelizing in Russia to the atheists or the the Russian Orthodox Christians? I've seen evidence that both have been going on, and there is no reason for Evangelicals to be trying to convert the Russian Orthodox (and their native Christian religion for the past 1000+ years) to their more recent belief system. This is wrong, imo.

Why is it wrong to share the Gospel with the lost?

Being a Russian Orthodox doesn't make you a Christian any more than belonging to any other denomination makes you a Christian.

If the Russian Orthodox you speak of really understand Christianity, then they would applaud the efforts of missionaries to evangelize the lost in their midst.

so why bother going there unless one is trying to help the poor there without converting?

Because there are people there who are going to Hell and we care about them.

If Evangelical groups are going to countries just to evangelize....share the Gospel, they'd be better off going to China, the M.E., India, etc. where they can reach those who haven't heard of Christ.

So then, you mean you really don't care if the lost in South America go to Hell?

I find it really interesting that your signature says, "This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it. 2 Jn 6" and yet, you criticize those who walk in Christ's commandment to "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.-Mark16:15".

So you don't even believe the verse you quoted in your own signature.

 

[Thekla]

Why is it wrong to share the Gospel with the lost?

Being a Russian Orthodox doesn't make you a Christian any more than belonging to any other denomination makes you a Christian.

If the Russian Orthodox you speak of really understand Christianity, then they would applaud the efforts of missionaries to evangelize the lost in their midst.



Because there are people there who are going to Hell and we care about them.



So then, you mean you really don't care if the lost in South America go to Hell?

I find it really interesting that your signature says, "This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it. 2 Jn 6" and yet, you criticize those who walk in Christ's commandment to "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.-Mark16:15".

So you don't even believe the verse you quoted in your own signature.

It would be cool if you would share the sort of information and training you received about Russian culture, and the cultures of South America

This has become a long thread, so I thought it might be acceptable to repeat myself:

Cultures tend to have different mindsets, and different ways of understanding things. They also recollect "different histories", or different aspects of the same history.

One of my concerns is that the OChurch, having been a martyr Church for so many decades, might be assisted by US Chistians as an act of brotherly love. To see the opportunity in Russia as one of helping those who had lost to rebuild and minister to their own people (the Russians).

Another concern, is that many in the US misread EOrthodoxy, and are unfamiliar with its theology and history.

Finally, protestant missionaries in Alaska were involved in actively working to de-convert the Aleut/RussianEOrthodox there (in the 20th c.) -- to make them protestant. Certainly the Orthodox Church in Russia remembers the history of her own Churches in Alaska.
Similar efforts occurred in Ireland/RCatholicism (19th c.), the Philippines/RCatholicism (19th and 20th c.), the Americas/RCatholicism (S America, 20th c), the Ukraine (20th c.) as well as the Alaskan example I mentioned above (which included the forced removal of children from their families).

Given the potential misunderstandings (theological and cultural), the historical record on attempted deconversions, and the reality of the ROrthodox as a martyr Church, perhaps it might be easier to understand the concerns.

God bless, and thank-you !

EDIT: I forgot to mention Central America during the 2oth c. as another example of de-conversion efforts (away from RCatholicism).

 

[Dorothea]

Why is it wrong to share the Gospel with the lost?

Nothing if you're administering to the "lost" and not Christians.

Being a Russian Orthodox doesn't make you a Christian any more than belonging to any other denomination makes you a Christian.

This is true if you are speaking of individuals who may not be strong in their faith, which happens in any Christian sect. What you should be concerned about is going into a place where the native people have suffered for the past 70 years, and were murdered, persecuted, and thrown in jail, and those that had survived did so through their faith and basic fortitude, and having other Christians sects come in and try to deconvert them is completely the icing on the cake. After all they've been through, let's go in and strip them of their culture and faith and convert them to something thoroughly different in theology and beliefs just because their beliefs don't line up with your modern, American Protestant beliefs. Ignorance is one thing, doing this purposely is just purely not compassionate and not of God.

If the Russian Orthodox you speak of really understand Christianity, then they would applaud the efforts of missionaries to evangelize the lost in their midst.

Again, you have to speak individually here. Atheism and Communism crushed Russia for 70 years, and those who survived in their catacomb churches and at their homes, too scared to go out for fear of being told they're reading their Bible or doing some kind of worship service in their homes, know their faith. The faith that has been since the beginning - Christ's Church. It is either simple ignorance that those evangelicals go over there thinking the EO isn't Christian, or it's purely out of malice and not the work of God, but the Evil One. It would do American Protestants good to actually study and learn about the Ancient Church, who gave you the Bible to come preach to His people in these other countries, so that you can try to convert them.

Because there are people there who are going to Hell and we care about them.

And you know this for a fact that these people are going to hell? These Christians are going to hell? Good God. What is wrong with you people? Why don't you try preaching the Gospel to the atheists? Are they not lost? Do they not need to hear His Word?

So then, you mean you really don't care if the lost in South America go to Hell?

I find it really interesting that your signature says, "This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it. 2 Jn 6" and yet, you criticize those who walk in Christ's commandment to "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.-Mark16:15".

So you don't even believe the verse you quoted in your own signature.

What I care about is not making myself God in judging everyone as going to hell and treating my fellow Christians as lost souls. Good God. Who is truly "lost" here. I need a break from this forum.