john 20.28 nom for nom.

2ducklow

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John 20.28 is no proof that Jesus is god because god and lord are in the nominative case and not the vocative case. Every time Jesus is addressed as Lord in the bible he is addressed in the vocative case of lord (kurie) and never in the nominative case of Lord (kurios). Therefore, Thomas was talking about god and lord to Jesus not addressing Jesus as god and lord. So how was Thomas talking about god and lord to Jesus? He was uttering an exclamation, just as anyone would in that situation. Or it was an incomplete sentence, after all we all utter incomplete sentences. Some scholars believe it was an incomplete sentence, I lean more towards an exclamation but don't rule out an incomplete sentence.

Also, it is asserted by scholars that the nominative is used for the vocative, but I have as yet to see even one clear cut example of the nominative being used for the vocative, so I'm not sure that is correct. Even in mark where Mark uses the nomative when quoting Jesus "my god,my god why has thou forsaken me", it is possible that Jesus uttered one in hebrew, then one in aramaic, and that the utterances where different. one case Jesus is excalming in utter aggony, and not addresssing god with "my god my god", in the luke version which is a translation of the aramaic and not the hebrew, Jesus adresses God in the vocative. So why is one version (Mark) in hebrew, and the other version
(Luke in aramaic? obviously because jesus said it two times once in hebrew and once in aramaic. anybody who speaks multiple languages knows that people often swithch back and forth between those languages, every met a bilingual mexican who didint'? I haven't.
 

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Luke 1:43:
καὶ πόθεν μοι τοῦτο ἵνα ἔλθῃ ἡ μήτηρ τοῦ κυρίου μου πρὸς ἐμέ

So is Elizabeth speaking about Jesus in the genative or is she saying the Virgin Mary gave birth to Jesus and then to a second child also called the Lord?

John 20:13:
καὶ λέγουσιν αὐτῇ ἐκεῖνοι γύναι τί κλαίεις λέγει αὐτοῖς ὅτι ἦραν τὸν κύριόν μου καὶ οὐκ οἶδα ποῦ ἔθηκαν αὐτόν

So is Mary Magdalene speaking about Jesus in the accusative or is she saying that they took away not Jesus' body, but a second body also called the Lord?

2ducklow, Jesus is referred to in the vocative usually because usually when people refer to Him as Lord, they are requesting something: "Lord, have mercy". But St. Thomas wasn't asking Jesus for anything, so he referred to Him in the nominative, as the subject of his statement.

I like how you said: "He was uttering an exclamation, just as anyone would in that situation." So St. Thomas was taking the LORD's name in vain out of shock, right? But why did Jesus, a Rabbi, not only forget to chastise him, but praise him?
 
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It is unfortunate He will not clear all this up till the end, but I assure all, that most interpretations of His role in the deity of ALmighty are likely incorrect, based on the their prideful origins and their prideful and judgmental boasting today.
Bit that's just my opinion of it since I have had no clear revelation IRT it.

Praise and exalt Him above all forever!
 
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2ducklow

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Luke 1:43:
καὶ πόθεν μοι τοῦτο ἵνα ἔλθῃ ἡ μήτηρ τοῦ κυρίου μου πρὸς ἐμέ

So is Elizabeth speaking about Jesus in the genative or is she saying the Virgin Mary gave birth to Jesus and then to a second child also called the Lord?

John 20:13:
καὶ λέγουσιν αὐτῇ ἐκεῖνοι γύναι τί κλαίεις λέγει αὐτοῖς ὅτι ἦραν τὸν κύριόν μου καὶ οὐκ οἶδα ποῦ ἔθηκαν αὐτόν

So is Mary Magdalene speaking about Jesus in the accusative or is she saying that they took away not Jesus' body, but a second body also called the Lord?

2ducklow, Jesus is referred to in the vocative usually because usually when people refer to Him as Lord, they are requesting something: "Lord, have mercy". But St. Thomas wasn't asking Jesus for anything, so he referred to Him in the nominative, as the subject of his statement.

I like how you said: "He was uttering an exclamation, just as anyone would in that situation." So St. Thomas was taking the LORD's name in vain out of shock, right? But why did Jesus, a Rabbi, not only forget to chastise him, but praise him?

Theos and kurios (God and Lord) are not the names of god.
an exclamation is not taking someone's name in vain.
John 20.28 is in the nominative not the vocative
everytime Jesus is addressed as Lord he is addressed in the vocative.
the accusative is never used for the vocative.
the genitive case is never taken as the vocative case, only the nominative is taken as the vocative, and that rarely if at all, I have as yet to see one clear cut example of the nominative being used for the vocative so i reserve my judgement as to whether it in fact actually happens.


therefore, Thomas was not addressing Jesus because he used the nominative and not the vocative. addressing someone is not refering to someone. addressing someone means talking to them,. refering to someone means talking about someone.

the vocative case is the case used to address someone .
Kurie is vocative.
kurios is nominative.

john 20.28 uses the word kurios not kurie.
 
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John 20.28 is no proof that Jesus is god because god and lord are in the nominative case and not the vocative case. Every time Jesus is addressed as Lord in the bible he is addressed in the vocative case of lord (kurie) and never in the nominative case of Lord (kurios). Therefore, Thomas was talking about god and lord to Jesus not addressing Jesus as god and lord. So how was Thomas talking about god and lord to Jesus? He was uttering an exclamation, just as anyone would in that situation. Or it was an incomplete sentence, after all we all utter incomplete sentences. Some scholars believe it was an incomplete sentence, I lean more towards an exclamation but don't rule out an incomplete sentence.

Also, it is asserted by scholars that the nominative is used for the vocative, but I have as yet to see even one clear cut example of the nominative being used for the vocative, so I'm not sure that is correct. Even in mark where Mark uses the nomative when quoting Jesus "my god,my god why has thou forsaken me", it is possible that Jesus uttered one in hebrew, then one in aramaic, and that the utterances where different. one case Jesus is excalming in utter aggony, and not addresssing god with "my god my god", in the luke version which is a translation of the aramaic and not the hebrew, Jesus adresses God in the vocative. So why is one version (Mark) in hebrew, and the other version
(Luke in aramaic? obviously because jesus said it two times once in hebrew and once in aramaic. anybody who speaks multiple languages knows that people often swithch back and forth between those languages, every met a bilingual mexican who didint'? I haven't.

Four scholars discuss "nominative for vocative" in Biblical Greek.
(a) THE NOMINATIVE AS VOCATIVE. There is an increasing use of nominative forms as vocatives. This usage had long existed for nouns that were oxytone or had labial or guttural stems. Elsewhere in general the stem had served as vocative. No notice is here taken of the common use of the article with the nominative form as vocative, like η παις (Lu. 8:54), a construction coming under syntactical treatment. According to Winer-Schmieder(2 ) the use of the singular without the article belongs also to syntax and the solution of W. H. is called "certainly false." Hort(3) had suggested that in the case of θυγατηρ as vocative (Mk. 5:34; Lu. 8:48; Jo. 12:15) and πατηρ (Jo. 17:21, 24, 25) the long vowel (η ) was pronounced short. Why not the rather suppose that the vocative is like the nominative as in the case of labial and guttural stems? The usage is thus extended sometimes to these liquids. Indeed, in Jo. 17:25 we have πατηρ αγαθη the adjective having the vocative form. In Mk. 9:19 (Lu. 9:41) we have ω γενεα απιστος and αφρων in Lu. 12:20; 1 Cor. 15:36). See also ω πληρης (Ac. 13:10) for — ες, which might be an indeclinable form like the accusative (II, 2 (f)). But these adjectives show that the usage is possible with substantives. There are indeed variant readings in the MSS. above, which have θυγατερ and πατερ, but in Mt. 9:22 DGL have θυγατηρ. Note also ανερ (1 Cor. 7:16) and γυναι (Lu. 13:12). For peculiarities in nom. see (d). p. 264

(g) IN EXCLAMATIONS. The nominative is natural in exclamations, a sort of interjectional nominative.1 So Paul in Ro. 7:24, ταλαιπωρος εγω ανθρωπος, and 11:33, ω βαθος (a possible vocative) πλουτου. So. Ro. 7:24; 1 Cor. 15:57. Cf. χαρις τω θεω (Ro. 6 : 17). For parallel in papyri see Moulton, Cl. Rev., 1901, p. 436. Cf. χαρις τοις θεοις, B.U. 843 (i/A.D.).

(h) USED AS VOCATIVE. It only remains to consider the nominative form which is used as a vocative. Cf. chapter VII, 7, (a), for details as to form. It all depends on what one means by the term "case" when he says that the nominative is used as a vocative. The form is undoubtedly the same as that of the vocative in a multitude of instances (all neuter nouns, for instance, singular and plural, plural of all nouns in truth). It is only in the singular that any distinction was made between the nominative and vocative in form, and by no means always here, as in the case of feminine nouns of the first declension, θεος (usually) in the second, liquid oxytones like ποιμην in the third, etc. But if by the vocative one means the case of address, then the nominative form in address is really vocative, not nominative. Thus συ πατηρ (Jo. 17:21) is just as truly vocative as συ πατερ (17:5). Indeed in Jo. 17:25 we have πατηρ δικαιε, showing that πατηρ is here regarded as vocative. The article with the vocative in address was the usual Hebrew and Aramaic idiom, as indeed in Aristophanes2 we have ο παις ακολουθει. It is good Greek and good Aramaic too when we have αββα ο πατηρ (Mk. 14:36) whether Jesus said one or both. In Mt. 11:26 (ναι ο πατηρ we have the vocative. When the article is used, of course the nominative form must occur. Thus in Rev. 18:20 we have both together, ουρανε και οι αγιοι. Indeed the second member of the address is always in the nominative form.(3) Thus κυριε ο θεος ο παντοκρατωρ (Rev. 15:3). Cf. Jo. 20:28. I shall treat therefore this as really the vocative, not the nominative, whatever the form may be, and now pass on to the consideration of the Vocative Case. P.461

Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research, A.T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D., 1919, George H. Doran Company.

A Grammar of New Testament Greek: Prolegomena
By James Hope Moulton, Wilbert Francis Howard

Vocative Note that Lk, and perhaps Mt (אAL), correct Mk here. The anarthrous nom. should probably be regarded as a mere substitute for the vocative, which begins from the earliest times to be supplanted by the nominative. In MGr the forms in -e are practically the only separate vocatives surviving. Hellenistic has little more, retaining some in -a and -eu, with the isolated yunai, pater,and thugater; but the nom. is beginning to assert itself even here, for pathr(1) and thugathr are well attested (see the evidence in Blass 86 n.). The vocative itself need not detain us, the presence or absence of w being the only feature calling for comment. In the Lucan writings only is the interjection used in the classical manner without emphasis. Elsewhere it is mostly used as we use 0, except that this is with us appropriate in prayer, from which it is markedly absent in the NT, though not entirely in the translation Greek of the ОТ. The progressive omission of w is not wholly easy to explain, for the classical examples (see Gerth's Kühner3 § 357. 4) show that the simple voc. has normally a touch of dignity or reserve. A specially good ex. occurs in Plato Grito 52A., tautas dh famen kai se swkrates tais aitiais enexesthai, where " the effect of omitting w is to increase the impressiveness, since w swkrates is the regular mode of address : in English we obtain the same effect by exactly the opposite means" (Adam). NT use has thus approximated to our own, and may well have travelled upon the same path without any outside interference, such as A. Buttmann would find in Latinism.2 P 271

A Grammar of New Testament Greek ... - Google Books

A Greek grammar of the New Testament, By Georg Benedikt Winer, Moses Stuart, Edward Robinson

§ 22. Nouns ; use of the nominative.

1. The nominative absolute is sometimes found, i. e. a nominative with which no verb is connected.
E. g. John 17: 2 ina pan o dedwkas autw dosh autois zohn aiwnion Luke 21:6 tauta a thewreite eleusontai hmerai x.t. l. Acts 7: 40 o mwushs outos – ouk oidamen ti gegonen autw. Comp.Rom. 8: 3. Gal. 1: 20. Rev. 1: 20. 3 : 12, 21. Luke 12: 10. 13 : 4. etc. Here belongs Acts 24: 25 to nun exon poreuon i.e. as matters now stand, etc. See Georgi p. 40. Matthiae § 310.

2. Very frequently among the Greeks and Hebrews, the nominative with the article is used instead of the vocative. Of this usage there are many examples in the New Testament. .'
E. g. Mark 9 : 25 To pneuma to alalon – egw soi eptassw. Matt. 27: 29 xaire o basileus. Luke 8: 54 efwnhse legwn h pais eyeirou. Luke 18:11, 13. John 12 : 13. Rom. 8 : 15. Heb. 1: 8. al. This often happens in words which stand in apposition, so that sometimes a nominative appears to be connected with a vocative. E. g. Mark 14: 36 kai elegen Abba o pathr. Matt. 1: 20 Iwshf uios Dabid etc. Here may be referred places like John 15:13 umeis fwneite me o didaskalos. Some make the nominative to stand here for the accusative.

A Greek grammar of the New Testament - Google Books

Wallace GGBB pp. 56-59, In his three page discussion of “nominative for vocative” lists twelve examples of “Nominative for Vocative,” John 17:25, Matt 16:17, Rom 1:13, Mark 9:19, Mark 5:8, Luke 8:54, John 19:3, Gal 3:1, Eph 5:22, John 20:28, Rev 15:3, Heb 1:18

Wallace, Greek Grammar, Google books
 
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2ducklow

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The big problem with your interpretation is that Jesus is never ever addressed in the NT kurios, he is always addressed with the word kurie . Jesus is always addressed in the vocative case and never in the nominative case everwhere he is addressed as Lord.
Another problem with your interpretation is your changing the word theos to elohym. JOhn 20.28 is not a quote of some OT scripture so it is not justifiied to substitute elohym for theos. Theos and elohyim are not exact equivaltents.
 
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2ducklow

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Ah so, I'm beginning to get the picture now. some nouns have the same ending for the vocative and nominative case, So when scholars say that there are over 60 examples of the nominative for the vocative, they are fibbing. It's beginning to look certain that there are no examples of the nominative being used for the vocative when a noun has a nominative ending different than the vocative ending. I knew there was something rotten in the state of denmark.
Vocative Case
The vocative is the case of direct address. It is used when one person is speaking to another, calling out or saying their name, or generally addressing them. With many nouns, the case form of the vocative is the same as the nominative, but the context and function leave no question as to whether the person is being addressed or, contrariwise, spoken about. (Note that, obviously, the vocative is used most often in conjunction with the "second person" form of the verb).

Greek Nouns (Shorter Definitions)

So john 20.28 is not a case of the nominative being used for the vocative, cause there is no such animal. Therefore, john 20l28 is an exclamation and not an address to Jesus. How can scholars in unison utter such blatant falsehoods about a nominative being used for a vocative in john 20.28? it's really mind boggling. what tipped me off was that no one gave any examples of the nominative being used for the vocative except john 20.28 and some verse in Mark, neither of which are proof of a nominative being used for a vocative.

but I'm still open to any example of a nominative being used for a vocative, but no one in here is supplying one either. Cause, like I said, there's no such animal.

hum, here;s more to consider.
Nominative for Vocative (Nominative for Address)
  • A substantive in the nominative is used in the place of the vocative case to designate the addressee.
    John 17:25 Righteous Father, even the world has not known you.
    Mark 9:19 O unfaithful generation! How long will I be with you?
Nominative of Exclamation
  • The nominative substantive is used in an exclamation without any grammatical connection to the rest of the sentence.
    Rom 7:24 [O] wretched man [that] I am!

  • http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cach...e+for+vocative+Greek&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


    looks like john 20.28 is the nominative of exclamation. But the queston is here, does the greek word for father and generation have the same ending for vocative and nominative. it they do, as I suspect they do, then it's no poof of the nominative being used for the vocative. perhaps theres someone out there who knows? Let me do some thinkin on it. Voila, I was right, righteous is vocative thus father has to be nominative. so john 17.25 is no example of nomminative for vocative. when you have a 2 nouns of address like hre, righteous father, only one of them is in the vocative ending case, not both of them. the word for righteous here is pater <3962> {FATHER}dikaie <1342> {RIGHTEOUS,
Not sure about mark though, my source says genea is vocative, but is the a ending a vocative ending? I think so. no wonder no one offers an example of nominative for vocative, there are none.

the end result of this research is that there is no way that john 20.28 can even remotely be taken to mean that Thomas was calling Jesus "my Lord and My God.". he was uttering an exclamation, the case is rock solid.

what we have here is yet one more invented grammar rules invented solely to prove that Jesus is god. Sharps rule, colwells rule, verbsd have no subjects, is is an action verb and now nominative for vocative, all grammar rules invented to prove Jesus is god, or more correctly to change scripture to mean something they don't mean.
 
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Der Alte

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Ah so, I'm beginning to get the picture now. some nouns have the same ending for the vocative and nominative case, So when scholars say that there are over 60 examples of the nominative for the vocative, they are fibbing. It's beginning to look certain that there are no examples of the nominative being used for the vocative when a noun has a nominative ending different than the vocative ending. I knew there was something rotten in the state of denmark.

Greek Nouns (Shorter Definitions)

There is something rotten in Denmark but but it is not with the thoroughly documented "nominative for vocative." Note, how the four separate grammars cited above have been totally ignored. And in this summary "many vocative and nominative case endings are the same," has strangely become "all." And note this link is only "shorter definitions."

So john 20.28 is not a case of the nominative being used for the vocative, cause there is no such animal. Therefore, john 20l28 is an exclamation and not an address to Jesus. How can scholars in unison utter such blatant falsehoods about a nominative being used for a vocative in john 20.28? it's really mind boggling. what tipped me off was that no one gave any examples of the nominative being used for the vocative except john 20.28 and some verse in Mark, neither of which are proof of a nominative being used for a vocative.

Totally false, Wallace gave twelve examples. The other three scholars also gave several examples, including non-Biblical Greek.

but I'm still open to any example of a nominative being used for a vocative, but no one in here is supplying one either. Cause, like I said, there's no such animal.

hum, here;s more to consider.


Greek Cases

Hum, this website is a compilation primarily from Wallace and Mounce. You ignored Wallace above.

looks like john 20.28 is the nominative of exclamation. But the queston is here, does the greek word for father and generation have the same ending for vocative and nominative. it they do, as I suspect they do, then it's no poof of the nominative being used for the vocative. perhaps theres someone out there who knows? Let me do some thinkin on it. Voila, I was right, righteous is vocative thus father has to be nominative. so john 17.25 is no example of nomminative for vocative. when you have a 2 nouns of address like hre, righteous father, only one of them is in the vocative ending case, not both of them. the word for righteous here is pater <3962> {FATHER}dikaie <1342> {RIGHTEOUS, Not sure about mark though, my source says genea is vocative, but is the a ending a vocative ending? I think so. no wonder no one offers an example of nominative for vocative, there are none.

the end result of this research is that there is no way that john 20.28 can even remotely be taken to mean that Thomas was calling Jesus "my Lord and My God.". he was uttering an exclamation, the case is rock solid.

No evidence to support any of this.
 
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Der Alte

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Here are two more Greek grammars which support the the use of the Nominative for the Vocative in Biblical Greek. Note both of these grammars are for classical Greek. That is a total of six (6) grammars which support "Nominative for Vocative" and Zero (0) which refute it.

Herbert Weir Smyth, A Greek Grammar for Colleges

VOCATIVE

§1283. The vocative is used in exclamations and in direct address: ô Zeu kai theoi oh Zeus and ye gods P. Pr. 310d , anthrôpe my good fellow X. C. 2.2.7 . The vocative forms an incomplete sentence (904 d).
a. The vocative is never followed immediately by de or gar.

§1284. In ordinary conversation and public speeches, the polite ô is usually added. Without ô the vocative may express astonishment, joy, contempt, a threat, or a warning, etc. Thus akoueis Aischinê; d'ye hear, Aeschines? D. 18.121. But this distinction is not always observed, though in general ô has a familiar tone which was unsuited to elevated poetry.

§1285. The vocative is usually found in the interior of a sentence. At the beginning it is emphatic. In prose ephê, in poetry ô, may stand between the vocative and an attributive or between an attributive and the vocative; in poetry ô may be repeated for emphasis. [p. 313]

§1286. In late poetry a predicate adjective may be attracted into the vocative: olbie kôre genoio blessed, oh boy, mayest thou be Theocr. 17. 66. Cp. Matutine pater seu Iane libentius audis Hor. S. 2. 6. 20.

§1287. By the omission of su or hu_meis the nominative with the article may stand in apposition to a vocative: ô andoes hoi parontes you, gentlemen, who are present P. Pr. 337c, ô Kure kai hoi alloi Persai Cyrus and the rest of you Persians X. C. 3.3.20 ; and in apposition to the pronoun in the verb: ho pais, akolouthei boy, attend me Ar. Ran. 521.

§1288. The nominative may be used in exclamations as a predicate with the subject unexpressed: ô pikros theois oh loathed of heaven S. Ph. 254 , philos ô Menela_e ah dear Menelaus D 189 ; and connected with the vocative by and: ô polis kai dême oh city and people Ar. Eq. 273 . In exclamations about a person: ô gennaios oh the noble man P. Phae. 227c .

a. houtos is regular in address: houtos, ti pascheis, ô Xanthia_; ho there, I say, Xanthias, what is the matter with you? Ar. Vesp. 1; ô houtos, Aia_s ho there, I say, Ajax S. Aj. 89.

Herbert Weir Smyth, A Greek Grammar for Colleges

A Greek grammar By William Watson Goodwin

The cases
Nominative and Vocative

1042.
Thew nominative is used chiefly as the subject of a finite verb (894), or in the predicate after verbs signifying to be, etc. (907).

1044. The vocative, with or without &#969; is used in addressing a person or thig; as “w andres Athhnaioi Men of Athens! akoueis Aisxinh Dost thou hear, Aeschines!

1045 N. The nominative is sometimes used in exclamations and even in other expressions where the vocative is more common; as wmoi egw deilos!, O wretched me! So h proknh ekbaine!” Procne, come out! Ar. Au. 665.

A Greek grammar - Google Books
 
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2ducklow

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oh oh oh, I just had an epiphany. Theos in heb. 1.8 is in the nominative case, ergo, more proof that the correct reading of heb. 1.8 is "God is thy throne for ever and ever." See the earliest manuscripts read His kingdom and not thy kingdom, thus adding to that the fact that theos is in the nominative case, there are now 2 strikes against heb. 1.8 calling Jesus god.

but back to the topic, more proof that the so called grammar rule invented to prove that Jesus is god (nominative for voactive) is a phoney.

There are a few other special ways of addressing Jesus. Mary addresses her son as "child" (Lk. 2.48), and during Jesus' trial and crucifixion he is taunted with the names:
  1. Anointed One (literally "Christe", Mt. 26.68)
  2. King of the Jews (Mt. 27.29, Mk. 15.18, Jn. 19.3; as a variant reading at Lk. 23.27)
  3. You who destroy the Temple and in three days rebuild it (Mt. 27.40, Mk. 15.29 with different word order)
Mk. 1.24 ("the holy one of God") and Jn. 20.28 ("my Lord and my God") are sometimes regarded as examples of nominative for vocative. The former certainly does not fall under that heading, but the latter probably does (cf. Rev. 4.11).


However, the normal way of addressing Jesus in the Gospels is by one of the following titles [6]:
  1. Lord (kyrie)
  2. Teacher (didaskale)
  3. Rabbi (rabbi, rabbouni)
  4. Master (epistata)
The following chart shows the distribution of these forms of address among the four Gospels:

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cach...+vocative+John+20.28&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Notice the 2 examples he gives for nominative for vocative. john 20.28 how ludicrous, and mk 1.24 which he rightly determines is noway nom. for voc. So the only 2 examples he can come up with are phoneys thus proving that if they have to resort to john 20.28 to show an example of nom. for voc. it can only mean there are no examples in the NT. It's another made up rule along with all the other ones I mentioned earlier.

I mean think about it, if you have to quote john 20,.28 as an example of nom. for vocative, you ain't got one.
 
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oh oh oh, I just had an epiphany. Theos in heb. 1.8 is in the nominative case, ergo, more proof that the correct reading of heb. 1.8 is "God is thy throne for ever and ever." See the earliest manuscripts read His kingdom and not thy kingdom, thus adding to that the fact that theos is in the nominative case, there are now 2 strikes against heb. 1.8 calling Jesus god.

but back to the topic, more proof that the so called grammar rule invented to prove that Jesus is god (nominative for voactive) is a phoney.

Names and Titles in Forms of Address
Notice the 2 examples he gives for nominative for vocative. john 20.28 how ludicrous, and mk 1.24 which he rightly determines is noway nom. for voc. So the only 2 examples he can come up with are phoneys thus proving that if they have to resort to john 20.28 to show an example of nom. for voc. it can only mean there are no examples in the NT. It's another made up rule along with all the other ones I mentioned earlier.

I mean think about it, if you have to quote john 20,.28 as an example of nom. for vocative, you ain't got one.

This argument must be in very serious trouble, when the only replies ignore all the quotes from lexicons which have been posted and someone has to have a discussion with himself.
Four scholars discuss "nominative for vocative" in Biblical Greek.
(a) THE NOMINATIVE AS VOCATIVE. There is an increasing use of nominative forms as vocatives. This usage had long existed for nouns that were oxytone or had labial or guttural stems. Elsewhere in general the stem had served as vocative. No notice is here taken of the common use of the article with the nominative form as vocative, like &#951; &#960;&#945;&#953;&#962; (Lu. 8:54), a construction coming under syntactical treatment. According to Winer-Schmieder(2 ) the use of the singular without the article belongs also to syntax and the solution of W. H. is called "certainly false." Hort(3) had suggested that in the case of &#952;&#965;&#947;&#945;&#964;&#951;&#961; as vocative (Mk. 5:34; Lu. 8:48; Jo. 12:15) and &#960;&#945;&#964;&#951;&#961; (Jo. 17:21, 24, 25) the long vowel (&#951; ) was pronounced short. Why not the rather suppose that the vocative is like the nominative as in the case of labial and guttural stems? The usage is thus extended sometimes to these liquids. Indeed, in Jo. 17:25 we have &#960;&#945;&#964;&#951;&#961; &#945;&#947;&#945;&#952;&#951; the adjective having the vocative form. In Mk. 9:19 (Lu. 9:41) we have &#969; &#947;&#949;&#957;&#949;&#945; &#945;&#960;&#953;&#963;&#964;&#959;&#962; and &#945;&#966;&#961;&#969;&#957; in Lu. 12:20; 1 Cor. 15:36). See also &#969; &#960;&#955;&#951;&#961;&#951;&#962; (Ac. 13:10) for &#8212; &#949;&#962;, which might be an indeclinable form like the accusative (II, 2 (f)). But these adjectives show that the usage is possible with substantives. There are indeed variant readings in the MSS. above, which have &#952;&#965;&#947;&#945;&#964;&#949;&#961; and &#960;&#945;&#964;&#949;&#961;, but in Mt. 9:22 DGL have &#952;&#965;&#947;&#945;&#964;&#951;&#961;. Note also &#945;&#957;&#949;&#961; (1 Cor. 7:16) and &#947;&#965;&#957;&#945;&#953; (Lu. 13:12). For peculiarities in nom. see (d). p. 264

(g) IN EXCLAMATIONS. The nominative is natural in exclamations, a sort of interjectional nominative.1 So Paul in Ro. 7:24, &#964;&#945;&#955;&#945;&#953;&#960;&#969;&#961;&#959;&#962; &#949;&#947;&#969; &#945;&#957;&#952;&#961;&#969;&#960;&#959;&#962;, and 11:33, &#969; &#946;&#945;&#952;&#959;&#962; (a possible vocative) &#960;&#955;&#959;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#965;. So. Ro. 7:24; 1 Cor. 15:57. Cf. &#967;&#945;&#961;&#953;&#962; &#964;&#969; &#952;&#949;&#969; (Ro. 6 : 17). For parallel in papyri see Moulton, Cl. Rev., 1901, p. 436. Cf. &#967;&#945;&#961;&#953;&#962; &#964;&#959;&#953;&#962; &#952;&#949;&#959;&#953;&#962;, B.U. 843 (i/A.D.).

(h) USED AS VOCATIVE. It only remains to consider the nominative form which is used as a vocative. Cf. chapter VII, 7, (a), for details as to form. It all depends on what one means by the term "case" when he says that the nominative is used as a vocative. The form is undoubtedly the same as that of the vocative in a multitude of instances (all neuter nouns, for instance, singular and plural, plural of all nouns in truth). It is only in the singular that any distinction was made between the nominative and vocative in form, and by no means always here, as in the case of feminine nouns of the first declension, &#952;&#949;&#959;&#962; (usually) in the second, liquid oxytones like &#960;&#959;&#953;&#956;&#951;&#957; in the third, etc. But if by the vocative one means the case of address, then the nominative form in address is really vocative, not nominative. Thus &#963;&#965; &#960;&#945;&#964;&#951;&#961; (Jo. 17:21) is just as truly vocative as &#963;&#965; &#960;&#945;&#964;&#949;&#961; (17:5). Indeed in Jo. 17:25 we have &#960;&#945;&#964;&#951;&#961; &#948;&#953;&#954;&#945;&#953;&#949;, showing that &#960;&#945;&#964;&#951;&#961; is here regarded as vocative. The article with the vocative in address was the usual Hebrew and Aramaic idiom, as indeed in Aristophanes2 we have &#959; &#960;&#945;&#953;&#962; &#945;&#954;&#959;&#955;&#959;&#965;&#952;&#949;&#953;. It is good Greek and good Aramaic too when we have &#945;&#946;&#946;&#945; &#959; &#960;&#945;&#964;&#951;&#961; (Mk. 14:36) whether Jesus said one or both. In Mt. 11:26 (&#957;&#945;&#953; &#959; &#960;&#945;&#964;&#951;&#961; we have the vocative. When the article is used, of course the nominative form must occur. Thus in Rev. 18:20 we have both together, &#959;&#965;&#961;&#945;&#957;&#949; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#959;&#953; &#945;&#947;&#953;&#959;&#953;. Indeed the second member of the address is always in the nominative form.(3) Thus &#954;&#965;&#961;&#953;&#949; &#959; &#952;&#949;&#959;&#962; &#959; &#960;&#945;&#957;&#964;&#959;&#954;&#961;&#945;&#964;&#969;&#961; (Rev. 15:3). Cf. Jo. 20:28. I shall treat therefore this as really the vocative, not the nominative, whatever the form may be, and now pass on to the consideration of the Vocative Case. P.461

Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research, A.T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D., 1919, George H. Doran Company.

A Grammar of New Testament Greek: Prolegomena
By James Hope Moulton, Wilbert Francis Howard

Vocative Note that Lk, and perhaps Mt (&#1488;AL), correct Mk here. The anarthrous nom. should probably be regarded as a mere substitute for the vocative, which begins from the earliest times to be supplanted by the nominative. In MGr the forms in -e are practically the only separate vocatives surviving. Hellenistic has little more, retaining some in -a and -eu, with the isolated yunai, pater,and thugater; but the nom. is beginning to assert itself even here, for pathr(1) and thugathr are well attested (see the evidence in Blass 86 n.). The vocative itself need not detain us, the presence or absence of w being the only feature calling for comment. In the Lucan writings only is the interjection used in the classical manner without emphasis. Elsewhere it is mostly used as we use 0, except that this is with us appropriate in prayer, from which it is markedly absent in the NT, though not entirely in the translation Greek of the &#1054;&#1058;. The progressive omission of w is not wholly easy to explain, for the classical examples (see Gerth's Kühner3 § 357. 4) show that the simple voc. has normally a touch of dignity or reserve. A specially good ex. occurs in Plato Grito 52A., tautas dh famen kai se swkrates tais aitiais enexesthai, where " the effect of omitting w is to increase the impressiveness, since w swkrates is the regular mode of address : in English we obtain the same effect by exactly the opposite means" (Adam). NT use has thus approximated to our own, and may well have travelled upon the same path without any outside interference, such as A. Buttmann would find in Latinism.2 P 271

A Grammar of New Testament Greek ... - Google Books

A Greek grammar of the New Testament, By Georg Benedikt Winer, Moses Stuart, Edward Robinson

§ 22. Nouns ; use of the nominative.

1. The nominative absolute is sometimes found, i. e. a nominative with which no verb is connected.
E. g. John 17: 2 ina pan o dedwkas autw dosh autois zohn aiwnion Luke 21:6 tauta a thewreite eleusontai hmerai x.t. l. Acts 7: 40 o mwushs outos &#8211; ouk oidamen ti gegonen autw. Comp.Rom. 8: 3. Gal. 1: 20. Rev. 1: 20. 3 : 12, 21. Luke 12: 10. 13 : 4. etc. Here belongs Acts 24: 25 to nun exon poreuon i.e. as matters now stand, etc. See Georgi p. 40. Matthiae § 310.

2. Very frequently among the Greeks and Hebrews, the nominative with the article is used instead of the vocative. Of this usage there are many examples in the New Testament. .'
E. g. Mark 9 : 25 To pneuma to alalon &#8211; egw soi eptassw. Matt. 27: 29 xaire o basileus. Luke 8: 54 efwnhse legwn h pais eyeirou. Luke 18:11, 13. John 12 : 13. Rom. 8 : 15. Heb. 1: 8. al. This often happens in words which stand in apposition, so that sometimes a nominative appears to be connected with a vocative. E. g. Mark 14: 36 kai elegen Abba o pathr. Matt. 1: 20 Iwshf uios Dabid etc. Here may be referred places like John 15:13 umeis fwneite me o didaskalos. Some make the nominative to stand here for the accusative.

A Greek grammar of the New Testament - Google Books

Wallace GGBB pp. 56-59, In his three page discussion of &#8220;nominative for vocative&#8221; lists twelve examples of &#8220;Nominative for Vocative,&#8221; John 17:25, Matt 16:17, Rom 1:13, Mark 9:19, Mark 5:8, Luke 8:54, John 19:3, Gal 3:1, Eph 5:22, John 20:28, Rev 15:3, Heb 1:18

Wallace, Greek Grammar, Google books
 
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2ducklow

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More proof that the nominative for vocative grammar rule is a phoney.
4. The articular nominative qeoj, theos with the vocative force, as in this text, is a &#8220;well-established idiom in classical Greek, the Septuagint, and the New Testament&#8221; (Reymond, Systematic Theology, 272; e.g., the articular nominative qeoj theos in the parallel passages John 20:28 and Rev. 4:11 are clearly in direct address). Commenting on the articular nominative for the vocative, Wallace points out that there are &#8220;nearly sixty examples of it in the NT&#8221; and that there are &#8220;almost 600 instances of the anarthrous nom. for the voc. in the NT&#8221; (Wallace, Beyond the Basics, 56-57, nn. 69, 72). So common was the nominative for the vocative that of all the times in the NT that qeo/j, theos is being directly addressed, only in one verse does qeo/j, theos actually appear in the vocative case: qee mou qee mou, thee mou thee mou (&#8220;My God, my God . . .&#8221;; Matt. 27:46).
http://www.christiandefense.org/Hebrews1_8.htm

Notice this guy first says the nominative is clearly established in over 60 examples, then he gives (what a Joke) john 20.28 as an example. these guys always say that and never give any examaples. what a farce. Ok lets look at rev. 4.11 , that's one i haven't seen before. Im sure this is gonna be a whooptee dooo one.
(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Revelation 4:11 axioV <514> {WORTHY} ei <1488> (5748) {ART THOU,} kurie <2962> {O LORD,} labein <2983> (5629) thn <3588> {TO RECEIVE} doxan <1391> {GLORY} kai <2532> thn <3588> {AND} timhn <5092> {HONOUR} kai <2532> thn <3588> {AND} dunamin <1411> {POWER:} oti <3754> {BECAUSE} su <4771> {THOU} ektisaV <2936> (5656) ta <3588> {DIDST CREATE} panta <3956> {ALL THINGS,} kai <2532> {AND} dia <1223> {FOR} to <3588> qelhma <2307> sou <4675> {THY WILL} eisin <1526> (5748) {THEY ARE,} kai <2532> {AND} ektisqhsan <2936> (5681) {WERE CREATED.}

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm


I was right, the guy flat out lied, rev. 4.11 is vocative for vocative. man what a grand deception these so called scholars have perpetuated upon unsuspecting christians.

now as to the other point he makes, he says there's only one case of vocative for vocative theos in an adress, mathew 27.46. Notice again he gives no examples of nominative for theos being used as vocative he just says oh theres tons of um. ther truth is there aren't any which is why he can't give an example of nominative theos being used as vocative, the only one they ever use is this one.

Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

If there were other cases besides this one, it would be a good example but not a certain example. notice this, in mathew Jesus said 'Eli Eli" in Mark Jesus says "Eloi Eloi" . Now either this is a mistake, which it isn't, or Jesus said both One time he said Eloi Eloi" an exclamation which is why it's translated in the nominative, and the other time Jesus said Eli Eli' which is vocative as recorded in mathew.
nominative for vocative, as I have clearly shown here, is a farce invented to make scritpure say someting it doesn't say, that Jesus is God.
 
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Der Alte

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More proof that the nominative for vocative grammar rule is a phoney.
http://www.christiandefense.org/Hebrews1_8.htm

Notice this guy first says the nominative is clearly established in over 60 examples, then he gives (what a Joke) john 20.28 as an example. these guys always say that and never give any examaples. what a farce. Ok lets look at rev. 4.11 , that's one i haven't seen before. Im sure this is gonna be a whooptee dooo one.

(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Revelation 4:11 axioV <514> {WORTHY} ei <1488> (5748) {ART THOU,} kurie <2962> {O LORD,} labein <2983> (5629) thn <3588> {TO RECEIVE} doxan <1391> {GLORY} kai <2532> thn <3588> {AND} timhn <5092> {HONOUR} kai <2532> thn <3588> {AND} dunamin <1411> {POWER:} oti <3754> {BECAUSE} su <4771> {THOU} ektisaV <2936> (5656) ta <3588> {DIDST CREATE} panta <3956> {ALL THINGS,} kai <2532> {AND} dia <1223> {FOR} to <3588> qelhma <2307> sou <4675> {THY WILL} eisin <1526> (5748) {THEY ARE,} kai <2532> {AND} ektisqhsan <2936> (5681) {WERE CREATED.}


I was right, the guy flat out lied, rev. 4.11 is vocative for vocative. man what a grand deception these so called scholars have perpetuated upon unsuspecting christians.

More
k2310660.jpg
Rev 4:11 according to the more reliable Nestle Aland 26, not the questionable TR.

NA26 Rev 4:11 &#7948;&#958;&#953;&#959;&#962; &#949;&#7990;, &#8001; &#954;&#8059;&#961;&#953;&#959;&#962; &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#8001; &#952;&#949;&#8056;&#962; &#7969;&#956;&#8182;&#957;, &#955;&#945;&#946;&#949;&#8150;&#957; &#964;&#8052;&#957; &#948;&#8057;&#958;&#945;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#964;&#8052;&#957; &#964;&#953;&#956;&#8052;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#964;&#8052;&#957; &#948;&#8059;&#957;&#945;&#956;&#953;&#957;, &#8005;&#964;&#953; &#963;&#8058; &#7956;&#954;&#964;&#953;&#963;&#945;&#962; &#964;&#8048; &#960;&#8049;&#957;&#964;&#945;, &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#948;&#953;&#8048; &#964;&#8056; &#952;&#8051;&#955;&#951;&#956;&#8049; &#963;&#959;&#965; &#7974;&#963;&#945;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#7952;&#954;&#964;&#8055;&#963;&#952;&#951;&#963;&#945;&#957;.
 
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Finally, a sensible explanation of john 20.28, however I don't think even he knows that the nominative for vocative grammar rule is a farce, but it appears that this author might be hip to it.
Q1 Did Thomas believe that Jesus was God?
Some believe that Thomas was addressing Jesus directly, thereby calling Jesus "God". Others will claim he was merely making an exclamation. From the English translation we can argue either way. But in the original Greek there is more information.
Let's imagine we are Greek and have a friend called Markos. If we talk about him, or refer to him, we'll call him Markos. But when speaking to him we'll call him "Marke".
This is because
bull1_aftrnoon.gif
Fact 1 Greek uses the Vocative case (Marke, Kyrie etc) when speaking directly TO someone. Sometimes this is translated into English as "O Mark" or "O Lord".
bull1_aftrnoon.gif
Fact 2 Greek uses the Nominative (in this case Markos, Kurios) or other cases (Kurion, Kurio etc) when talking ABOUT someone.
Q2 Is Jesus always addressed in the Vocative?
In the Christian Greek Scriptures (also known as the New Testament) Our Lord is always called Kurie when he is directly addressed, otherwise Kurios (or its other forms) when he is referred to.
bull1_aftrnoon.gif
A list of all uses of the cases of Kurios, Kyrie etc in the Gospels is listed here.
bull1_aftrnoon.gif
A list of the use of just Kurie throughout the Christian Greek Scriptures is here.We see that is all instances where Jesus is directly addressed, he is called Kurie, never Kurios. No exceptions.
(Perhaps the most famous instance is where he is addressed "Kurie Eleison" ( &#954;&#973;&#961;&#953;&#949;, &#949;&#955;&#941;&#951;&#963;&#972;&#957;) at Matt 17.15 "Lord have mercy" as in various choral works so entitled.)
Q3 Did Thomas use the Vocative when addressing Jesus in John 20.28?
No. As recorded under inspiration in Greek by the Apostle John, Thomas did not say Kurie but Kurios.
Q4 Whom was Thomas referring to when he said &#8220;My Lord and my God!&#8221;?
Thomas was referring to the Lord God, the one Jesus also called "my God".

bull1_aftrnoon.gif
(John 20:17) . . .&#8216;I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.&#8217;&#8221;​







bull1_aftrnoon.gif
(Revelation 3:12) . . .&#8220;&#8216;The one that conquers&#8212;I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine.​




This fact is not obvious in the English translation, but is very clear in Greek.


[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]My lord and my God[/FONT]​
rock solid proof that thomas did not call Jesus god.
 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd259a2hmqc

I found this guy's interpretation to be interesting.
Yea I have had a similar understanding as a possibile interpretation, namely that Thomas was speaking to God who was in Christ. The problem with that is that ,if Thomas was speaking to the Lord Jesus when saying "my Lord" he would have said kurie not kurios. So, I'll stick with an exclamation as the meaning of john 20.28, since Thomas says kurios and theos. ON the other hand, the use of the nominative theos and kurios might fit in. He that hath seen me expressed in short hand with Thomas statement "my Lord" and "hath seen the Father" expressed in short hand by Thomas with "My God".
I too find his interpretation interesting, but faulty for another reason, it seems too far fetched. I mean, " He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" ergo, "My Lord" = Seeing Jesus, and "My God" = seeing the Father, is a little too far fetched for me. I'm gonna stick with an exclamation as the meaning.
 
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Finally, a sensible explanation of john 20.28, however I don't think even he knows that the nominative for vocative grammar rule is a farce, but it appears that this author might be hip to it.

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]My lord and my God
rock solid proof that thomas did not call Jesus god.​
[/FONT]

Wonder how he entire early church, who spoke and read Koine Greek, got it wrong, and people today, 2000 years later with no expertise in Greek, supposedly got it right?
A Treatise of Novatian Concerning the Trinity [210-280 AD]

Moreover, if, whereas it is the property of none but God to know the secrets of the heart, Christ beholds the secrets of the heart; and if, whereas it belongs to none but God to remit sins, the same Christ remits sins; and if, whereas it is the portion of no man to come from heaven, He descended by coming from heaven; and if, whereas this word can be true of no man, "I and the Father are one,"91 Christ alone declared this word out of the consciousness of His divinity; and if, finally, the Apostle Thomas, instructed in all the proofs and conditions of Christ's divinity, says in reply to Christ, "My Lord and my God; "92 and if, besides, the Apostle Paul says, "Whose are the fathers, and of whom Christ came according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for evermore,"93 writing in his epistles; and if the same apostle declares that he was ordained "an apostle not by men, nor of man, but by Jesus Christ; "94 and if the same contends that he learned the Gospel not from men or by man, but received it from Jesus Christ, reasonably Christ is God.

And let us therefore believe this, since it is most faithful that Jesus Christ the Son of God is our Lord and God; because "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word. The same was in the beginning with God."276 And, "The Word was made flesh, and dwelt in us."277 And, "My Lord and my God."278 And, "Whose are the fathers, and of whom according to the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for evermore."279

The Treatises of Cyprian – TESTIMONIES [200-258 AD]

Also in the sixty-seventh Psalm: “Sing unto God, sing praises unto His name: make a way for Him who goeth up into the west: God is His name.” Also in the Gospel according to John: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word.” Also in the same: “The Lord said to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands: and be not faithless, but believing. Thomas answered and said unto Him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they who have not seen, and yet have believed.” Also Paul to the Romans: “I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren and my kindred according to the flesh: who are Israelites: whose are the adoption, and the glory, and the covenant, and the appointment of the law, and the service (of God), and the promises; whose are the fathers, of whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is God over all, blessed for evermore.” Also in the Apocalypse: “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end: I will give to him that is athirst, of the fountain of living water freely. He that overcometh shall possess these things, and their inheritance; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.” Also in the eighty-first Psalm: “God stood in the congregation of gods, and judging gods in the midst.” And again in the same place: “I have said, Ye are gods; and ye are all the children of the Highest: but ye shall die like men.” But if they who have been righteous, and have obeyed the divine precepts, may be called gods, how much more is Christ, the Son of God, God!
 
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I have demonstrated with numerous sources the plain and clear fact that the nominative for vocative grammar rule is a fake. what is really scarey about it is I coulldn't find one source that knows this fact. Man , such unbelieveable persuasive blindness on this and yet it is crystal clear that nominative for vocative is a phoney made up grammar rule.
course too you can google sharps rule phoney or fake and you won't get many hits either, but it too is equally phoney. caldwells as well. I mean even those who don't believe Jesus is god still accept those fake rules as valid.
amazin, simply amazin.
Take a gander at this source

The nominative for vocative has exactly the same force and meaning as the vocative. This can be seen in numerous parallel passages in the Gospels, in which the vocative appears in one and the nominative in another (see, for example, Matt 27:46 [thee mou, thee mou] and Mark 15:34 [ho theos mou, ho theos mou]).
http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cach...tive+in+the+Greek+NT&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

this source says oh theres bunches of examples of nom for voc. like matt 27.45 and mark 15.34. They are suppose to be the same thing but they are not. Jesus said eloi eloi in one version and eli eli in another v ersion. it's not the same thing as they falssely claim It's two different quotes of Jesus on the cross, one time he exclaimed "My god MY god' in the nominative another time he speaks to god "My god My god" in the vocative.

if there's all these tons of scriptures with nom for voc. why do they quote one that obvviously isn't? it's a grand cover up of unbeleiveable proportions. Look at any NT Greek grammar book or on line source they all say stuff like oh theres tons of scriptures where t he nominative is used for the vocative and t hey always give the same ole examples john 20.28, and mark 15.34. what a farce. Is anybody pickin up on this?

I've really stumbled onto something here, I better write a paper exposing it, this is really important stuff.
 
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Uh Oh, I just checked out mathew 27.46 and mark 15.34. In the Greek manuscripts Aleph and B and 33 and others, both scriptures says Eloi Eloi. No Eli in Matthew 27.46.
Don't know however if in aleph and B they both use the nominative for god and Lord. be interesting to know though. cause it would blow a gigantic hole in the nom. for vocative example of matthew and Mark.
 
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