Praying TO Saints

[rosenherman]

I have been told and read, any number of times that Catholics don't pray to angels. I just saw a thread on this board with prayers to a saint. Not through a saint (whatever that means) but TO A SAINT, along the lines of - Protect and guide me.
IMHO
Prayer is for talking to the triune God. Our Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit. Not some created being. God alone provides protection and guidance.

Where in Scripture does it say you should pray to other created beings instead of The Creator?

 

[kenblaster5000]

I have been told and read, any number of times that Catholics don't pray to angels. I just saw a thread on this board with prayers to a saint. Not through a saint (whatever that means) but TO A SAINT, along the lines of - Protect and guide me.
IMHO
Prayer is for talking to the triune God. Our Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit. Not some created being. God alone provides protection and guidance.

Where in Scripture does it say you should pray to other created beings instead of The Creator?

I agree with you sister. We are born of God, baptized in water, the Holy Ghost, and fire. When we are children we think like children, but when we grow we get rid of childish things. When we lived exclusively in the natural, we reasoned in that realm. These people are ignorant of the word of God, not to put anyone down or puff myself up. They reason that they should pray to saints because they are close to God and do not know that God wants us to get to a place where we can come boldly into the throne of grace, like a child comes to a loving father to make a petition. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Faith gets His attention, not our prayers to saints, which in fact is most likely a seducing spirit or deceiving spirit. I was recently reprimanded by a moderator for posting a prayer in a Catholic room, and asked to never come back. When you speak the truth people seem to attack. I posted a prayer directly to Jesus that we stop repetative prayer and stop laying the same foundation of repentance and go on to our purpose He has for us. You and I know that we can pray directly to the Father and He hears us. He saw those prayers. He knows the intention of our hearts. We should not live to please men but God and keep His commandments in the face of a reprobate land.

 

[Thekla]

In asking the Saints to pray for us, and in noting the example of their lives, we attest that the body of Christ is not divided, that Christ is victorious.

 

[Faith.Man]

In asking the Saints to pray for us, and in noting the example of their lives, we attest that the body of Christ is not divided, that Christ is victorious.

There are two destinations for those that die: one is to suffer in eternal agony; the other is be in eternal heavenly bliss with God the Father. Neither those in Heaven nor those in Hell will be able to hear our prayers. The Bible is quite clear that when we call-up the dead, we are not really speaking with the dead but demons posing as the dead. There's only one who is our mediator between man and God, that being Jesus the Christ. Since even a "Saint" needed a redeemer, why even think to go through another layer separating you and God? Why risk incurring the wrath of God by praying to a sinful individual? As a former Catholic, this makes no sense to me now.

 

[bbbbbbb]

There is a fundamental difference between asking someone to pray for you and asking someone for their protection and guidance. I think the OP is addressing the latter situation. This will probably lead to the question of the quasi-divine attributes of disembodied saints.

 

[Thekla]

There are two destinations for those that die: one is to suffer in eternal agony; the other is be in eternal heavenly bliss with God the Father. Neither those in Heaven nor those in Hell will be able to hear our prayers. The Bible is quite clear that when we call-up the dead, we are not really speaking with the dead but demons posing as the dead. There's only one who is our mediator between man and God, that being Jesus the Christ. Since even a "Saint" needed a redeemer, why even think to go through another layer separating you and God? Why risk incurring the wrath of God by praying to a sinful individual? As a former Catholic, this makes no sense to me now.

Those of Christ are the body of Christ, and are united in Him by the Holy Spirit. Nothing can divide us, according to Paul, from the love which is of God.

The Psalmist attests that even in Hades, God is there. Again, the body of Christ is not divided; Satan did not defeat Christ. Thus also, when we live 'in Christ', He Who can never die lives in us -- "oh death, where is thy sting ?". To ask other Christians to pray for us is demonstrated and exhorted by Paul. This is part of the content of the life in Christ. And, as death was destroyed by Him who lives in us, death does not divide us; thus, we do not ask the dead to pray for us.

Intercession (to pray for others) is not the same as mediate - on this, note the Greek as used by Paul. Christ is the only "covenant maker/mesitis" (though it should also be noted that a covenant has two sides for the agreement -- thus Abraham, iirc is also implied as a mesitis/covenant receiver).

The Saint is not a "layer between" us and God, but in Christ with all who are in Him. Again, we are to pray for one another -- Paul exhorts and requests this.

 

[Thekla]

There is a fundamental difference between asking someone to pray for you and asking someone for their protection and guidance. I think the OP is addressing the latter situation. This will probably lead to the question of the quasi-divine attributes of disembodied saints.

Certainly, Paul provided both guidance and protection (both in action and as example ... "be imitating me ..." and those who walk in Christ; this is taught by Paul. Whatever assistance Paul provided was in the Holy Spirit. And Paul was able to 'hear' the prayer of the Macedonian man -- this indicates the action of the Holy Spirit. We do not say that Paul hearing the prayer of the Macedonian was because Paul had quasi-divine attributes.

 

[bobbykunkle]

I do not understand the Saint thing well in the Catholic church. Maybe someone could help me better understand where everyone is coming from.

From all that I know, it seems that the Saints are held on a level of holiness a little higher than the rest of believers. If that is true, why is that?

Also, can anyone help me to understand the idea that you need to perform a miracle after you die to become a saint? I totally understand that you can try to see people who have past on working in the world today, but I still don't grasp the idea of knowing that someone who is dead performed a miracle, without a doubt.

I seem to always find the word saint in the bible used as a term to describe believers, and not just specific persons who have lived great lives. For instance, in the introduction to 1 Corinthians, the word saint seems to be used in that manner:

"To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ out Lord..." -1 Corinthians 1:2

With what I personally understand about the "saint topic," I can't find myself wanting to ask, through prayer, someone who has past away to pray for me. Especially if I am saying that person is holier. I would rather call up a friend and ask them to include me in their prayers.

Again, this is all how I perceive it, so I hope I don't offend.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Certainly, Paul provided both guidance and protection (both in action and as example ... "be imitating me ..." and those who walk in Christ; this is taught by Paul. Whatever assistance Paul provided was in the Holy Spirit. And Paul was able to 'hear' the prayer of the Macedonian man -- this indicates the action of the Holy Spirit. We do not say that Paul hearing the prayer of the Macedonian was because Paul had quasi-divine attributes.

Paul, however, was quite unable to protect anyone at a distance from him or to do anything personally. Thus, he commissioned various men to do the work. For example, both Timothy and Titus were instructed by Paul to perform various things that Paul, himself, could not do.

If Paul, or any other saint, can claim an attribute of omnipresence, which would be necessary to provide protection to more than one person in one place, that would, indeed, make them quasi-divine.

 

[katherine2001]

The NT says that God is the God of the living. Therefore, even if a Christian is no longer walking on this earth, they are still living, otherwise God would no longer be their God. Are we really willing to say that when a Christian dies that they no longer begin to God because they are dead and no longer living in the flesh? If, however, they are still alive in God, then why can't we ask for their prayers, as we would ask other Christians that are walking on this earth to pray for us? Many churches have prayer chains--if someone is very sick or something bad happens to a member of their church, they will call the members of the prayer chain to pray for this person. Asking the saints for their prayers is no different. I personally ask St. Peter the Apostle to pray for me because he had to overcome anger, as I am struggling to do. He knows a lot better than I do how to pray for me and what to ask for than I do because he did overcome the problem and knows exactly what it entails. You have very powerful people praying on your behalf when you can ask the apostles themselves to pray for you and know that they will gladly do so.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The NT says that God is the God of the living. Therefore, even if a Christian is no longer walking on this earth, they are still living, otherwise God would no longer be their God. Are we really willing to say that when a Christian dies that they no longer begin to God because they are dead and no longer living in the flesh? If, however, they are still alive in God, then why can't we ask for their prayers, as we would ask other Christians that are walking on this earth to pray for us? Many churches have prayer chains--if someone is very sick or something bad happens to a member of their church, they will call the members of the prayer chain to pray for this person. Asking the saints for their prayers is no different. I personally ask St. Peter the Apostle to pray for me because he had to overcome anger, as I am struggling to do. He knows a lot better than I do how to pray for me and what to ask for than I do because he did overcome the problem and knows exactly what it entails. You have very powerful people praying on your behalf when you can ask the apostles themselves to pray for you and know that they will gladly do so.

I think the OP is not arguing against the fact that saints are in heaven and on earth, but whether or not a saint in heaven has the quasi-divine attributes to answer prayer directed to them personally. IOW can a saint even hear a prayer much less hear multiple prayers all at the very same moment in time, much less convey those prayers to God, much less actually intervene personally and provide services requested such as the protection of that saint?

 

[Thekla]

Paul, however, was quite unable to protect anyone at a distance from him or to do anything personally. Thus, he commissioned various men to do the work. For example, both Timothy and Titus were instructed by Paul to perform various things that Paul, himself, could not do.

If Paul, or any other saint, can claim an attribute of omnipresence, which would be necessary to provide protection to more than one person in one place, that would, indeed, make them quasi-divine.

Paul asked other to pray for him, to pray for others in general and James states that the prayers of the righteous are effective; are these exhortations for Christians to be doing "busy work" with prayer, that prayer is useless ?

When we ask others to pray for us, what is the purpose of this request ?

Again, there is no claim for omnipresence; or was Paul omnipresent when he hears the pleas/prayer of the Macedonian ?

Instead, it is the Holy Spirit Who joins is in the body of Christ -- the body is not severed (so if you strike stub your toe, the entire body responds though the most acute response is in the toe).

 

[Thekla]

Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 14:19

The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.

Psalm 22:26 (Masoretic) and 21:27 (LXX)


As both these teachings demonstrate, those of God continue to live - for ever/aionas tov aionon - but this is a 'referent living' ie not of self but in God. To live for ever is of the divine - and is given to the created by God; one may call this 'live for ever' a semi-divinity, or participation in (Peter, iirc) but it is not of one's own doing but God's.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Paul asked other to pray for him, to pray for others in general and James states that the prayers of the righteous are effective; are these exhortations for Christians to be doing "busy work" with prayer, that prayer is useless ?

When we ask others to pray for us, what is the purpose of this request ?

Again, there is no claim for omnipresence; or was Paul omnipresent when he hears the pleas/prayer of the Macedonian ?

Instead, it is the Holy Spirit Who joins is in the body of Christ -- the body is not severed (so if you strike stub your toe, the entire body responds though the most acute response is in the toe).

I think you might be misunderstanding the OP. As I understand it, this is not the typical discussion about asking saints to convey our prayers to God for us, but to pray and ask the saints to do things for us. For example, rather than asking a saint to intercede with God for healing, one prays to the saint, asking the saint to heal them. If the belief is present that the saint can perform miracles of healing, then the saint must have quasi-divine attributes to do so.

 

[Thekla]

I think you might be misunderstanding the OP. As I understand it, this is not the typical discussion about asking saints to convey our prayers to God for us, but to pray and ask the saints to do things for us. For example, rather than asking a saint to intercede with God for healing, one prays to the saint, asking the saint to heal them. If the belief is present that the saint can perform miracles of healing, then the saint must have quasi-divine attributes to do so.

At least in the EO (as I cannot speak for every Church that asks for intercession), it is understood that every good thing (healing etc.) is actually done by God. In this sense, what you are reading/seeing is a shorthand. The closer one comes to God, the more God-filled one becomes (in a way, the more the person is 'referential' to Christ -"... it is not I who live, but Christ who lives in me ...") the more the power of God is evidenced through the Saint. In this, the actions of the Saint glorify God because the Saint is entirely referential to God and God works 'in' the Saint.

 

[Via Cassian]

The study of Eastern Orthodox icons helped my to finally "get" the whole saint concept. For over 20 years while I was an evangelical Protestant, saints were just another strange thing believed by those nutty Catholics!

Please pass the pistachios,

John
Tampa, Florida

 

[Montalban]

I think you might be misunderstanding the OP. As I understand it, this is not the typical discussion about asking saints to convey our prayers to God for us, but to pray and ask the saints to do things for us. For example, rather than asking a saint to intercede with God for healing, one prays to the saint, asking the saint to heal them. If the belief is present that the saint can perform miracles of healing, then the saint must have quasi-divine attributes to do so.

So when Paul healed did the power come from Paul, or from God?

 

[Montalban]

The study of Eastern Orthodox icons helped my to finally "get" the whole saint concept. For over 20 years while I was an evangelical Protestant, saints were just another strange thing believed by those nutty Catholics!

Please pass the pistachios,

John
Tampa, Florida

But you went to the wrong church!

 

[Christos Anesti]

There is a fundamental difference between asking someone to pray for you and asking someone for their protection and guidance.

We not only ask the saints in heaven to guide and protect us we also ask our spiritual fathers and mothers here on earth to do so.

 

[Standing Up]

Pray TO the Saints.

Ask the Saints TO pray for you.

Big difference, even w/out going into the earth or heaven or purgatory or hell question of a Saint's location.


Saint SUP---

Peace be unto you.


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