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There is no hell.

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angelmom01

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There is no if, angels are etarnal.
OK, which is why I didn't understand your question, then, I guess.

You wouldn't lose salvation to eternal life, but you can lose rewards. imo that can remove you from the final destination of the new Jerusalem, placing self in jeprudy of having to face satan when he is loosed. The Father gives eternal life in the eternal.
Eternal life is to know God and Jesus Christ whom he sent. Those who believe and have Christ (LIFE) in them HAVE "eternal life". Those who do not abide in death; wherein the wrath of God ("everlasting punishment") abides upon them.


What do you mean?
The revelation of Jesus Christ is twofold. Christ was revealed "in the flesh" but the hope of glory is "Christ in you". That is why we are told to "watch" for his appearing, as he comes "as a thief in the night" (since he comes "to those who sleep"). To "keep" the saying of the book (of the Revelation of Jesus Christ) is to "watch" by keeping the eye upon them. How can we "keep" the sayings of the book if they, perhaps, do not even apply to us?
 
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heavensprings

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The point is, which I have already established, the ancient Jews, before and at the time of Jesus, believed in a place of eternal, i.e. unending, punishment for the unrighteous. The teachings of Jesus did NOT contradict but supported that teaching.

The Jews did not believe in a place of unending torment until they were taken away into captivity and allowed themselves to be indoctrinated into pagan Babylonian religion. There is not one clue in all the OT concerning unending torment. If they did believe it, it wasn't because God directly gave them the knowledge as His truth. It would have been written into their Oral Tradition, etc, which is not scriptural. Unless of course if you believe the Talmud was given by God.

Jesus teaching DID contradict the Jews. The Pharisees, according to Josephus, regarded the penalty of sin as torment without end. They called it eirgmos aidios (eternal imprisonment) and timorion adialeipton (endless torment), while our Lord called the punishment of sin aionion kolasin (eternal chastisement - God has chosen to deal with mankind within 'ages').
 
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Der Alte

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The Jews did not believe in a place of unending torment until they were taken away into captivity and allowed themselves to be indoctrinated into pagan Babylonian religion. There is not one clue in all the OT concerning unending torment. If they did believe it, it wasn't because God directly gave them the knowledge as His truth. It would have been written into their Oral Tradition, etc, which is not scriptural. Unless of course if you believe the Talmud was given by God.

Thank you for providing this unsupported opinion. In my post, above, I quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia which was written, compiled, and edited by at least 35 Jewish Rabbis. The article records the beliefs of the ancient Jews before and at the time of Jesus, supported by scripture. The Talmud simply records how the Jews, who OBTW spoke and read Hebrew interpreted the scripture.

Jesus teaching DID contradict the Jews. The Pharisees, according to Josephus, regarded the penalty of sin as torment without end. They called it eirgmos aidios (eternal imprisonment) and timorion adialeipton (endless torment), while our Lord called the punishment of sin aionion kolasin (eternal chastisement - God has chosen to deal with mankind within 'ages').

Just as God has chosen to give mankind zoe only for ages? One word is hardly contradiction. Still waiting for specific evidence.

My previous post listing and discussing twenty eight passages, where Jesus speaks about the fate of the unrighteous, in the order they occur is scripture.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7398572/#post52822910

My previous post discussing aionios!

http://www.christianforums.com/t7359147-2/#post51460934

The definition of kolasis from Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker lexicon of New Testament Greek. This one of, if not the most renowned Greek lexicon in use today, and the term "chastisement" does NOT occur in this definition anywhere.
κόλασις, ew", hJ punishment (so Hippocr. +; Diod. S. 1, 77, 9; 4, 44, 3; Aelian , V.H. 7, 15; Dit., Syll. 2 680, 13; LXX ; Philo , Leg. ad Gai. 7, Mos. 1, 96; Jos. , Ant. 17, 164; Sib. Or. 5, 388).
1. lit. k. uJpomevnein undergo punishment GOxy 6; deinai; k. (4 Macc 8:9 ) MPol 2:4; hJ ejpivmono" k. long-continued torture ibid. kakai; k. tou` diabovlou IRo 5:3. Of the martyrdom of Jesus PK 4 p. 15, 34. The smelling of the odor arising fr. sacrifices ironically described as punishment, injury (s. kolavzw ) Dg 2:9.
2. of divine retribution ( Diod. S. 3, 61, 5; 16, 61, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 1; Dio Chrys. 80[30], 12; 2 Macc 4:38 al. in LXX ; Philo , Spec. Leg. 1, 55; 2, 196; Jos. , Ant. 1, 60 al. ): w. aijkismov" 1 Cl 11:1. Of eternal damnation ( w. qavnato" ) Dg 9:2 ( Diod. S. 8, 15, 1 k. ajqavnato" ). Of hell: tovpo" kolavsew" AP 6:21 (Simplicius in Epict. p. 13, 1 eij" ejkei`non to;n tovpon aiJ kolavsew" deovmenai yucai; katapevmpontai). ajpevrcesqai eij" k. aijwvnion go away into eternal punishment Mt 25:46 ; MPol 11:2 ( k. aij. as Test. Reub. 5:5, Ash. 7:5; Celsus 8, 48). rJuvesqai ejk th`" aijwnivou k. rescue fr. eternal punishment 2 Cl 6:7. th;n aijwvnion k. ejxagoravzesqai buy one’s freedom fr. eternal pun. MPol 2:3. kakai; k. tou` diabovlou IRo 5:3. k. tino" punishment for someth. (Ezk 14:3 , 4 , 7 ; 18:30 ; Philo , Fuga 65 aJmarthmavtwn k.) e[cein kovlasivn tina th`" ponhriva" aujtou` Hs 9, 18, 1. oJ fovbo" kovlasin e[cei fear has to do with punishment 1J 4:18 ( cf. Phil o, In Flacc. 96 fovbo" kolavsew" ). M-M. *

A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker
 
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Der Alte

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This Messianic also agrees with thee as I also do
Reps coming your way...........

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

*snip*

What did Yeshua mean by saying here that the rich man was in "torments in Hades"? The key to discovering the symbolic meaning of this verse is the Greek noun basanois, translated "torments" above.
According to Friberg's Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament, basanois, which is a form of the noun basanos, means "strictly, a touchstone for testing the genuineness of metals by rubbing against it . . ."
The etymology of basanos found in Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament is very helpful in correctly understanding this verse:

Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 7
TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB
*snip*
.............Ah, the torment comes not from the Lamb. The torment lies within the bosoms of the tormented. The Scripture does not say that the Lamb torments them! If you think it does, you are mistaken. It states that THEY ARE TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb. What a thought! TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE. The Lamb is merely present. He does not torment. The condition is within themselves
...................
βάσανος, ou, hJ ( Theognis , Pind. +, orig. ‘touchstone, test’; inscr. , pap. , LXX , En. , Philo ; Jos. , Ant. 12, 255; 13, 241).

1. torture, torment (Herodas 2, 88 and Diod. S, 15, 58, 2 of torture ordered by a court; Dit., Syll. 3

780, 12; PLille 29 I, 22; LXX , esp. oft. 4 Macc; Philo , De Jos. 86; Jos. , Bell. 1, 635; Ant. 16, 245) MPol

2:3, 4; GOxy 7. Of the tortures of hell ( cf. Wsd 3:1 ; 4 Macc 13:15 ) 2 Cl 17:7b; uJpavrcein ejn b. be in torment Lk 16:23 . Of hell tovpo" th`" b. place of torment vs. 2 8. Cf. 2 Cl 10:4.

2. gener. severe pain, torment ( w. novsoi ; cf. Sext. Emp ., Eth. 153; 1 Macc 9:56 ; Philo , Abr. 96) Mt 4:24 .— Hv 3, 7, 6; s 6, 3, 4; 6, 4, 3 f ; 6, 5, 1; 3; 7; Papias 3. Of persecutions of the Christians 1 Cl 6:1; 2 Cl 17:7a. M-M. B. 1115.*

A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament

básanos torment,
basanízō to torment,
basanismós torment,
basanistḗs tormentor
1. The básanos was originally used by inspectors of coins, then the word became a commercial term for checking calculations, later it was used figuratively for testing, and finally it came to signify putting to the test by torture.
2. The group is rare in the LXX, being used mainly a. for “testing afflictions” and b. for “judicial sufferings.” basanízein occasionally means “to test” but mostly “to torment.”
3. In the NT básanoi means “pains” in Matt. 4:24 and “torments” (of hell) in Luke 16:23. basanízein means “to plague, torment” in Matt. 8:6 (the servant) and Matt. 8:29 (the demons). The boat is “battered” by the waves in Matt. 14:24. The reference in Rev. 12:2 is to “birth pangs.” Lot’s “torment” at the sight of wickedness is the point in 2 Pet. 2:8. basanismós occurs only in Revelation, and is actively the “torment” that comes on the race in 9:5 and passively the “suffering” of Babylon in 18:7ff. basanistḗs is used in Matt. 18:34, not for “tester,” but for “tormentor.”
J. SCHNEIDER, I, 561–63
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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That doesn't answer the question that I asked you. I didn't ask you what was meant by "torment"; I asked if it it was not HIS LORD who handed him over to the tormentors UNTIL he paid all that he owed? Can you answer the question asked?
I found 1 Corin 5:5 to be an interesting verse....:wave:

Search for 'Genesis 1:1' in the version

Rotherham) 1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such a one as this, unto Satan, for the destruction of the flesh,--that, the spirit, may be saved in the day of the Lord.

Young) 1 Corinthians 5:5 to deliver up such a one to the Adversary for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Textus Rec.) 1 Corinthians 5:5 paradounai ton toiouton tw satana eiV oleqron thV sarkoV ina to pneuma swqh en th hmera tou kuriou ihsou
 
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angelmom01

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:thumbsup:
This Messianic also agrees with thee as I also do :angel:
Reps coming your way...........

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

*snip*

What did Yeshua mean by saying here that the rich man was in "torments in Hades"? The key to discovering the symbolic meaning of this verse is the Greek noun basanois, translated "torments" above.
According to Friberg's Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament, basanois, which is a form of the noun basanos, means "strictly, a touchstone for testing the genuineness of metals by rubbing against it . . ."
The etymology of basanos found in Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament is very helpful in correctly understanding this verse:

Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 7
TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB

*snip*
.............Ah, the torment comes not from the Lamb. The torment lies within the bosoms of the tormented. The Scripture does not say that the Lamb torments them! If you think it does, you are mistaken. It states that THEY ARE TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb. What a thought! TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE. The Lamb is merely present. He does not torment. The condition is within themselves...................
AMEN!!
Isa 65:2-6 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts; A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick; Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels; Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day. Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,
Nuf color for ya? :sorry: ^_^
 
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angelmom01

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I found 1 Corin 5:5 to be an interesting verse....:wave:

Search for 'Genesis 1:1' in the version

Rotherham) 1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such a one as this, unto Satan, for the destruction of the flesh,--that, the spirit, may be saved in the day of the Lord.

Young) 1 Corinthians 5:5 to deliver up such a one to the Adversary for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Textus Rec.) 1 Corinthians 5:5 paradounai ton toiouton tw satana eiV oleqron thV sarkoV ina to pneuma swqh en th hmera tou kuriou ihsou

The part highlighted in red was one of the things that finally made me give up the false doctrine of "soul sleep" that I clung to for over a year a few years back claiming that

body + spirit = living soul

so then

body - spirit = soul sleep

Took me a little while to see past that. :doh:
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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So if I quoted to you The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, which says that Universal Salvation was the most commonly taught and believed doctrine of the earliest Christians, particularly in the west where Christianity originated and where many of its adherents and teachers spoke/understood the Greek of the NT, indicting that it is this very doctrine that was taught by the majority of the Christian Theological Schools (until it was labeled as "heretical" some 500 years later), you wouldn't have a problem accepting that particular teaching as being true, then?:

The earliest system of Universalistic theology was by Clement of Alexandria (q.v.), who was the head of the theological school in that city until 202 A.D. His successor in the school was the great Origen (q.v.) who was the most distinguished advocate of this doctrine in all time. His mind has something of the largeness of Plato combined with Christian piety, and his influence was felt for many centuries throughout the East and to some extent in the West. The next great philosophical theologian in the East was Gregory of Nyssa (q.v.) Then came Theodore Mopsuestia (q.v.), distinguished as the promulgator of the grammatico-historical exegesis (see EXEGESIS OR HERMENEUTICS, III., 3; and ANTIOCH, SCHOOL OF), and of a Biblical scientific theology containing a portion of the theory of evolution applied to the history of mankind. His influence for some centuries was more extensive than that of Augustine. Johannes Cassianus (q.v.) should also be mentioned. He was the author of Semipelagianism (q.v.). Under the instruction of these great teachers many other theologians believed in universal salvation; and indeed the whole Eastern Church (q.v.) until after 500 A.D. was inclined to it.

In the West this doctrine had fewer adherents and was never accepted by the Church at large. In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist; one (Ephesus) accepted conditional mortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is unknown. (vol. 12, p. 96)


Are you a believer now?[/SIZE]

What exactly is it you think I should believe, and how does this address my post? I see that it took 202 years for universalism to appear.

[ . . . ]
My previous post listing and discussing twenty eight passages, where Jesus speaks about the fate of the unrighteous, in the order they occur is scripture.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7398572/#post52822910
[ . . . ]
The definition of kolasis from Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker lexicon of New Testament Greek. This one of, if not the most renowned Greek lexicon in use today, and the term "chastisement" does NOT occur in this definition anywhere.
κόλασις, ew", hJ punishment (so Hippocr. +; Diod. S. 1, 77, 9; 4, 44, 3; Aelian , V.H. 7, 15; Dit., Syll. 2 680, 13; LXX ; Philo , Leg. ad Gai. 7, Mos. 1, 96; Jos. , Ant. 17, 164; Sib. Or. 5, 388).
1. lit. k. uJpomevnein undergo punishment GOxy 6; deinai; k. (4 Macc 8:9 ) MPol 2:4; hJ ejpivmono" k. long-continued torture ibid. kakai; k. tou` diabovlou IRo 5:3. Of the martyrdom of Jesus PK 4 p. 15, 34. The smelling of the odor arising fr. sacrifices ironically described as punishment, injury (s. kolavzw ) Dg 2:9.
2. of divine retribution ( Diod. S. 3, 61, 5; 16, 61, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 1; Dio Chrys. 80[30], 12; 2 Macc 4:38 al. in LXX ; Philo , Spec. Leg. 1, 55; 2, 196; Jos. , Ant. 1, 60 al. ): w. aijkismov" 1 Cl 11:1. Of eternal damnation ( w. qavnato" ) Dg 9:2 ( Diod. S. 8, 15, 1 k. ajqavnato" ). Of hell: tovpo" kolavsew" AP 6:21 (Simplicius in Epict. p. 13, 1 eij" ejkei`non to;n tovpon aiJ kolavsew" deovmenai yucai; katapevmpontai). ajpevrcesqai eij" k. aijwvnion go away into eternal punishment Mt 25:46 ; MPol 11:2 ( k. aij. as Test. Reub. 5:5, Ash. 7:5; Celsus 8, 48). rJuvesqai ejk th`" aijwnivou k. rescue fr. eternal punishment 2 Cl 6:7. th;n aijwvnion k. ejxagoravzesqai buy one’s freedom fr. eternal pun. MPol 2:3. kakai; k. tou` diabovlou IRo 5:3. k. tino" punishment for someth. (Ezk 14:3 , 4 , 7 ; 18:30 ; Philo , Fuga 65 aJmarthmavtwn k.) e[cein kovlasivn tina th`" ponhriva" aujtou` Hs 9, 18, 1. oJ fovbo" kovlasin e[cei fear has to do with punishment 1J 4:18 ( cf. Phil o, In Flacc. 96 fovbo" kolavsew" ). M-M. *

A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker

Well, then I guess that settles the matter and we can simply destroy all other scholarship on this subject.

What scholarship? I haven't seen any. Here the definition from TDNT.
kolázo to cut short, punish,
kólasis punishment
kolázō.
This means “to cut short,” “to lop,” “to trim,” and figuratively a. “to impede,” “restrain,” and b. “to punish,”
and in the passive “to suffer loss.” A common use is for divine chastisement. In inscriptions the deity punishes those who violate cultic laws. Some classical authors regard evil as divine retribution. Philo finds in beneficence and retribution the two primary powers of being, though God would rather forgive than punish, and punishes only those who are not amenable to reason. Punishment brings blessing by freeing from a false frame of soul. The NT uses kolázō in Acts 4:21 and 2 Pet. 2:9. Only the latter refers to God’s punishment. The wicked will be under punishment between death and judgment, i.e., until their destiny is finally fixed.
kólasis.
This word, meaning “punishment,” is used for divine punishment
in 2 Macc. 4:38; 4 Macc. 8:9. In the NT it occurs in Matt. 25:46: Those who fail the practical ethical task will go away to eternal punishment. The only other instance is in 1 Jn. 4:18, which says that fear is its own punishment (cf. 3:18). This fear is driven out by love, which is free from every fear.
J. SCHNEIDER, III, 814–17​
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The part highlighted in red was one of the things that finally made me give up the false doctrine of "soul sleep" that I clung to for over a year a few years back claiming that

body + spirit = living soul

so then

body - spirit = soul sleep

Took me a little while to see past that. :doh:
There is also this kind of sleep :)

Romans 13:11 And this being aware/knowing the time, that hour already ye out of sleep to be roused/egerqhnai <1453> (5683),
for now nearer of us the Salvation than we believe
[Reve 7:10, 12:10, 19:1]
 
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angelmom01

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To understand how basanos is used within the cultural age where the NT was written, it might be a good idea to understand how it was used literally. How the people of that time confronted it as a reality.

Here is a fairly short historical view of basanos, why it was administered. That it was understood by those people within the context that there is a division between free men and slaves to speak the truth.

"Scholars who have addressed the subject of basanos, or the judicial torture of slaves, have been puzzled by what at first glance appears to be a peculiar idea: namely that slaves are by nature unable to tell the truth unless under severe corporal compulsion..." (link -> Basanos)
Interesting. Thanks!

And surely our Lord can extract 'the truth' from His 'slaves' without 'literally' torturing them, right? I mean, no believer believes that Peter is talking about a literal fire when he says "think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you"; yet when it comes to those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of Life being cast into "the lake of fire" all of a sudden they (not all, but many) want to take that literally.

And just whose name(s) are we to believe are written in THE LAMB'S book of Life anyway? ;)
 
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angelmom01

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There is also this kind of sleep :)

Romans 13:11 And this being aware/knowing the time, that hour already ye out of sleep to be roused/egerqhnai <1453> (5683),
for now nearer of us the Salvation than we believe
[Reve 7:10, 12:10, 19:1]
Exactly!

Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
 
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angelmom01

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What exactly is it you think I should believe, and how does this address my post?
It matters not what you believe when it comes to my comment. It's obvious that you do not believe in universal salvation, so I used that in my post to address your claim that you have provided "evidence" from an Encyclopedia while everyone else here has only provided "personal opinions" (and the like) that don't amount to a hill of beans, according to you and in light of your "evidence", which should be heeded as "truth" given it's source (an Encyclopedia).

This despite the fact that perhaps not all scholars would agree with your Encyclopedia entry. Nor would the fact that the Jew is Christ's day believed and taught the eternal torment of the wicked in hell
(as I am quite sure that they did) 'prove' that that belief was correct and not something that they adopted from Paganism while in captivity (which, perhaps, is why Christ used it against them ;)).

Even the scriptures (OT) say that God's people would make a covenant with death and come into agreement with hell/sheol.

It also says "your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand".


What scholarship? I haven't seen any. Here the definition from TDNT.
kolázo to cut short, punish,
kólasis punishment
koláz&#333;.
This means “to cut short,” “to lop,” “to trim,” and figuratively a. “to impede,” “restrain,” and b. “to punish,”
and in the passive “to suffer loss.” A common use is for divine chastisement. In inscriptions the deity punishes those who violate cultic laws. Some classical authors regard evil as divine retribution. Philo finds in beneficence and retribution the two primary powers of being, though God would rather forgive than punish, and punishes only those who are not amenable to reason. Punishment brings blessing by freeing from a false frame of soul. The NT uses koláz&#333; in Acts 4:21 and 2 Pet. 2:9. Only the latter refers to God’s punishment. The wicked will be under punishment between death and judgment, i.e., until their destiny is finally fixed.
kólasis.
This word, meaning “punishment,” is used for divine punishment
in 2 Macc. 4:38; 4 Macc. 8:9. In the NT it occurs in Matt. 25:46: Those who fail the practical ethical task will go away to eternal punishment. The only other instance is in 1 Jn. 4:18, which says that fear is its own punishment (cf. 3:18). This fear is driven out by love, which is free from every fear.
J. SCHNEIDER, III, 814–17​

Exactly! To CUT SHORT!! LOP!! TRIM!! IMPEDE!! RESTRAIN!!

It means TO PRUNE!!

What gets "pruned" and why?

You think that God likens himself to a Gardener and us to trees and vines, etc for nothing?

I notice that you didn't highlight in red:

in the passive “to suffer loss."


Wow, how might that be reconciled with:

1Co 3:14-15 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Nor did you highlight:

A common use is for divine chastisement.
Is "chastisement" the same as "torture"? Is "torture" an acceptable form of "chastisement"? And is God so incapable of "chastising" HIS children that this punishment must go on and on and on and never cease for He isn't ever going to be capable of actually "correcting" us?

You did highlight "divine punishment"; would "divine punishment" be paramount to an eternity of endless torment in hell?

And before you tell me that this is not what 'you' believe; I never said it is. I am simply pointing it out in relation to the topic of this tread.


 
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Der Alte

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It matters not what you believe when it comes to my comment. It's obvious that you do not believe in universal salvation, so I used that in my post to address your claim that you have provided "evidence" from an Encyclopedia while everyone else here has only provided "personal opinions" (and the like) that don't amount to a hill of beans, according to you and in light of your "evidence", which should be heeded as "truth" given it's source (an Encyclopedia).

Then why did you ask me if I was a believer? Why did it take 200 years for universalism to appear?
This despite the fact that perhaps not all scholars would agree with your Encyclopedia entry.

Which "scholars" do you think would disagree with Jewish scholars recording the historical beliefs of the Jews, supported by their own historical writings?

Nor would the fact that the Jew is Christ's day believed and taught the eternal torment of the wicked in hell (as I am quite sure that they did) 'prove' that that belief was correct and not something that they adopted from Paganism while in captivity (which, perhaps, is why Christ used it against them ).

More unsupported assumptions/presuppositions. I have NOT seen any evidence that anything recorded in scripture was copied from paganism.

Even the scriptures (OT) say that God's people would make a covenant with death and come into agreement with hell/sheol.

It also says "your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand".

And your point is?

[ . . . ]
kolázo to cut short, punish,
kólasis punishment
koláz&#333;.
This means “to cut short,” “to lop,” “to trim,” and figuratively a. “to impede,” “restrain,” and b. “to punish,”
and in the passive “to suffer loss.” A common use is for divine chastisement. In inscriptions the deity punishes those who violate cultic laws. Some classical authors regard evil as divine retribution. Philo finds in beneficence and retribution the two primary powers of being, though God would rather forgive than punish, and punishes only those who are not amenable to reason. Punishment brings blessing by freeing from a false frame of soul. The NT uses koláz&#333; in Acts 4:21 and 2 Pet. 2:9. Only the latter refers to God’s punishment. The wicked will be under punishment between death and judgment, i.e., until their destiny is finally fixed.
kólasis.
This word, meaning “punishment,” is used for divine punishment
in 2 Macc. 4:38; 4 Macc. 8:9. In the NT it occurs in Matt. 25:46: Those who fail the practical ethical task will go away to eternal punishment. The only other instance is in 1 Jn. 4:18, which says that fear is its own punishment (cf. 3:18). This fear is driven out by love, which is free from every fear.
J. SCHNEIDER, III, 814–17​

Exactly! To CUT SHORT!! LOP!! TRIM!! IMPEDE!! RESTRAIN!!

It means TO PRUNE!!

What gets "pruned" and why?

I highlighted the parts of the definition that you have and continue to ignore! What gets pruned? It is your theory show me in scripture what gets "pruned?"

You think that God likens himself to a Gardener and us to trees and vines, etc for nothing?

I notice that you didn't highlight in red:

It is your theory you explain it?

Wow, how might that be reconciled with:

1Co 3:14-15 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Wow yet another Universalist quotes this one vs. out-of-context. This passage is addressed to Christians, those who build on the foundation of Christ, NOT all mankind! This says nothing about all mankind being saved!
1Co 3:10-14
(10)
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
(11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.​
And you omitted this verse.
1Co 3:16-17
(16)
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​
Those who defile the temple of God, God will destroy NOT save!

Nor did you highlight:

Is "chastisement" the same as "torture"? Is "torture" an acceptable form of "chastisement"? And is God so incapable of "chastising" HIS children that this punishment must go on and on and on and never cease for He isn't ever going to be capable of actually "correcting" us?

You did highlight "divine punishment"; would "divine punishment" be paramount to an eternity of endless torment in hell?

And before you tell me that this is not what 'you' believe; I never said it is. I am simply pointing it out in relation to the topic of this tread.

What anyone by humanistic reasoning determines is or is not an acceptable form of "chastisemsent" or what God is or is not capable of is NOT evidence! Trying to make every scripture fit the a priori assumptions/presuppositions that God only corrects or remediates is also not evidence.
 
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angelmom01

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Then why did you ask me if I was a believer?
Read it again. That is not what I asked you.

Why did it take 200 years for universalism to appear?
Read it again. That is not what the entry says.


Which "scholars" do you think would disagree with Jewish scholars recording the historical beliefs of the Jews, supported by their own historical writings?
Not even I disagreed with the fact that historically (at the time of Jesus and early) the Jews believed in eternal punishment. That is not what I said some scholars might disagree with.

More unsupported assumptions/presuppositions. I have NOT seen any evidence that anything recorded in scripture was copied from paganism.
What do you mean "copied from paganism"? You think that it would have been impossible for the Jews (who stumbled at the truth ALL THE TIME) to adopt pagan beliefs and/or misunderstand the truths of God? Why do you suppose they wandered in the wilderness for 40 years (and died there, for the most part).

And your point is?
That God said their covenant with death and agreement with hell would be disannulled and not allowed to stand.

I highlighted the parts of the definition that you have and continue to ignore! What gets pruned? It is your theory show me in scripture what gets "pruned?"
Oh really? I just started this discussion with you. In fact I didn't even enter this thread until it was at almost page 90 (or thereabouts, I think). So perhaps you can explain just exactly how and when I have ignored you? In fact, if memory serves me, I do believe that I even pointed out to another poster that some of the passages that you posted were not getting addresses by him in his replies to those posts. I generally reply to posts point by point (generally, but not always) so as NOT to skip over any of the points made (though I will not always address long copy/pastes point by point.. neither am I going to go read every other post/thread linked to, if that is what you are accusing me of ignoring).

It is your theory you explain it?
What "theory" is that? That God likens himself to a gardener and the world to a field and those in it to tree and vines (etc)? You really need me to explain or prove that to you? :confused:


Wow yet another Universalist quotes this one vs. out-of-context. This passage is addressed to Christians, those who build on the foundation of Christ, NOT all mankind! This says nothing about all mankind being saved!
1Co 3:10-14
(10)
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
(11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.​
And you omitted this verse.
1Co 3:16-17
(16)
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​
Those who defile the temple of God, God will destroy NOT save!
And yet you missed the whole point because you can't see past your own bias. I did not post that passage to prove "universal salvation" my friend. I only posted it because it mentions those who "suffer loss" and that loss is suffered "by fire". And your definition of the word "kolasis" mentions the suffering of loss, so that portion of the text, that you want to claim I ripped out of context, was the only portion of the passage that was RELEVANT to my point.


What anyone by humanistic reasoning determines is or is not an acceptable form of "chastisemsent" or what God is or is not capable of is NOT evidence! Trying to make every scripture fit the a priori assumptions/presuppositions that God only corrects or remediates is also not evidence.
Hey, if you believe in a god that punishes for the simple pleasure of doing so, or whose punishments are punitive rather than corrective, so be it. That is not the God of the bible.

 
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angelmom01

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:thumbsup:

*snip*
.............Ah, the torment comes not from the Lamb. The torment lies within the bosoms of the tormented. The Scripture does not say that the Lamb torments them! If you think it does, you are mistaken. It states that THEY ARE TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb. What a thought! TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE. The Lamb is merely present. He does not torment. The condition is within themselves...................
IN light of this and other comments made here implying that those who see these things differently are relying on "humanistic reasoning" rather than scripture, I am going to post a copy of an old study done by FireInfolding (remember her, LLoJ?) It's long (cuz you know how long winded we can both be when it comes to our studies :o ) but I hope that it will show what you are also saying here IN THE SCRIPTURES!! :thumbsup: It was made in response to a thread at CARM titled:

How does the King of Heaven deals with those who do not forgive?
(I would just link to it but it doesn't seem to exist there anymore)


[FONT=&quot]Theres judgment HERE and we receive INTO our BOSSOM these very things, HE's MERCIFUL and definately able to reward to someones bosom whats deserved. Surely He is THE LIVING GOD Whose judgments are IN THE EARTH!!

As Jesus said BE YE ~MERCIFUL~ AS your Heavenly Father IS "Merciful". Thats what knowing Him and being like Him is I believe.

I so love this! Executing TRUE Judgment is

Zach 7:9 Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, **Execute** TRUE JUDGMENT, and SHEW ~MERCY~ and ~COMPASSIONS~ every man to his brother:

Thats where the "forgiven sevant" became the "wicked servant" revealed. They destroy "themselves" after that spiritual truth...

Prov 21:7 The ROBBERY of the wicked shall DESTROY THEM; ***because*** they refuse ~TO DO~ JUDGMENT.

Thats what Zach 7:9 IS its DO judgment which IS to "shew mercy" and "compassion" to ones brother (just as in the parable itself)

Now you can see the same exact "robbery" in the "refusing to do judgment" (regarding mercy) in these words as well...


Psalm 37:21 The wicked **borroweth**, and **payeth NOT** again: but the righteous **SHEWETH MERCY**, and giveth.

The servant which DID NOT show the MERCY was called to give an ACCOUNT

Mathew 13:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I FORGAVE THEE all that debt, because THOU desiredst me:

Mathew 18:33 SHOULDEST ~THOU~ ALSO have HAD COMPASSION on thy fellowservant, EVEN AS I had PITY on thee?

He's not a respecter of persons...

Mathew 6:12 And FORGIVE US our debts,**AS ** WE FORGIVE our debtors. (see that *AS WE* so YOU do to US thing going on there?)

THAT was what He was angry about

Mathew 8:34 And his lord was WROTH, and delivered him to the tormentors, "" TILL"" he should pay all that was due unto him.

Mathew 18:35 So LIKEWISE shall my Heavenly Father ~DO~ ALSO ~UNTO YOU~, IF ye from ~your hearts~ forgive NOT every one his brother their tresspasses

Mal 1:6 A SON honoureth his father, and A SERVANT his MASTER: if I be a father, where is my honour? and ~IF~ I be MASTER, ~WHERE~ is MY FEAR? (if fear is not there He can give you it actually, this goes into "Child/Servant" verses "Sons")

Being "handed over" to the tormentors is expressed various ways concerning "torment" in scripture and chastisement and in these cases concerning "servant". For "Perfect love CASTS OUT FEAR we know this. The parable shows a "forgiven servant" having no real fear of God (not knowing to "DO judgment" by "shewing mercy" and "compassion"). I see this showing a picture of being given a FEAR of the Lord. FEAR has TORMENT in itself (It speaks of being handed over to "the tormentors" there).

Now Paul said God hath NOT given us ~AGAIN~ a "Spirit of Fear". For its by "the Fear of the Lord" one DEPARTS from doing evil ( and FEAR hath TORMENT). The FEAR of the Lord is the **beginning of** wisdom but its not the "end all" and he that "fears" is simply not made perfect in love. So the FEAR of the Lord might "restrain" one (to depart from evil) but "the LOVE of God" does not yet constraineth this one. How TRUE though!


Theres a debt that servant had to pay as shown in the parable. We are to let NO DEBT remain outstanding but to "love one another". The one handed over to "the tormentors" is TILL he PAY what is due... "there is no peace to the wicked". This one will work out his salvation with the cup of fear and trembling (that one does not have to drink again). The "merciful shall obtain mercy" and to the merciful he shows himself as such. Even as in the parable its showing "Judgment without mercy to one who showed no mercy" (ie tormentors/torment). In regards Judgment, a "Spirit of judgment" is TO ONE that sitteth in judgment. I'm seeing we are "measuring to" just as Jesus said we'd be "measured to". I see this shown repeatedly throughout scripture.

Jesus is showing his own disciples how important forgiveness, mercy and compassion is. Notice it wasnt the one who tresspassed that was held accountable to his lord but the one who did not "forgive his trespass" was and to this he was "speaking to". If we want forgiveness, we forgive, if we dont want condemnation, do not condemn, if we dont want to be judged, judge not. If we desire mercy be merciful etc. If we do not (as in the parable) Jesus said likewise how the Father will do unto us. This parable He spake to His own disciples. If you will represent me then you must be merciful AS your heavenly Father is merciful.

Jerm 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory IN THIS, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, ~IN THE EARTH~ for in ~these things~ I delight, saith the LORD .

Not all are that kind, faithful, forgiving, loving or merciful as true Faith works by Love and is merciful as He is (thats for sure)

2Thes 3:2 that we may be delivered from ~unreasonable~ and ~wicked men~: for all men ~have not~ faith (faith works BY LOVE)

He recompenses

Isaiah 65:5 Behold, it is written before me: I will ~not~ keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense ~into~ their bossom

Look where they are recompensed

Prov 11:31 ((( Behold ))) the righteous shall be recompensed ~IN THE EARTH~ MUCH MORE the wicked and the sinner


Romans 2:9 TRIBULATION and ANGUISH, ~UPON~ EVERY SOUL OF MAN that doeth EVIL, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Could Paul discern it?

Gal 5:10 ...he that ~troubleth you~ "shall" ~BEAR~ his judgment, whosoever he be.

James 2:13 For HE shall **have judgment** WITHOUT MERCY, that HATH SHEWED NO MERCY; and MERCY **REJOICETH AGAINST** judgment.


Isaiah 28:6 And for a ~SPIRIT OF~ JUDGMENT ~ TO HIM that ***sitteth in*** judgment,

Mathew 7:2 For with what judgment YE judge, YE **shall be** judged: and with what measure YE METE, it shall be MEASURED TO YOU again.

We receive the things done in the body

Its a righteous thing, Anguish and tribulation TO THEM

2Titus 1:6 Seeing it is ***a righteous thing*** with God to recompense tribulation **TO THEM **that trouble you

Do all FEEL EVIL?

Ecc 8:5 **Whoso** KEEPETH the COMMANDMENT shall FEEL ~NO EVIL~ THING: and a wise man's heart "discerneth" both time and judgment.

Theres NO PEACE for the Wicked because it goes to "these"

Romans 2:10 But glory, honour, and PEACE, to every man that **WORKETH GOOD**, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Same thing

Prov 11:17 The MERCIFUL MAN **DOETH GOOD** to HIS OWN SOUL: but he that ~IS CRUEL~ troubleth **HIS OWN FLESH**


Psalm 7:1 Deliver me, O my God, out of the hand of the wicked, out of the hand of the unrighteous and CRUEL man.


2Samuel 2:22 With the ~merciful~ thou wilt ~shew thyself~ merciful, and with the upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright.

I wonder what he shows himself as to the "not so merciful"?
clip_image001.gif


Luke 6:36 Be ~YE~ therefore ~merciful~, AS your Heavenly Father ~IS~ merciful. (As HE is so are WE in this world)

Psalm 37:26 He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed. (blessed are "the merciful" his seed)

The other verse posted "up at the top" says the wicked "borroweth" in relation to mercy as Psalm 37:26 shows he "lendeth" in regards to mercy. The wicked just dont "pay again" (or show mercy) its "that" robbery that destroys them. The "lamp" of the wicked being put out in darkness is the same darkness John speaks of. John uses "death" and "darkness" interchangeably in regards to an inner state (even an abode) where the physically living abide in a state of death.

The wicked show NO MERCY...

Zach 7:9 **Execute** TRUE JUDGMENT, and SHEW MERCY and COMPASSIONS every man to his brother:

Again...

Prov 21:7 **The ROBBERY OF** the wicked shall destroy them; **BECAUSE THEY** REFUSE **TO DO** JUDGMENT. (Zach 7:9)which is TO SHEW MERCY

Mat 12:7 But IF YOU HAD KNOWN what this means, I WILL HAVE MERCY, and NOT SACRIFICE, YE would NOT have CONDEMNED THE GUILTLESS.

Theres just TONS on this!! His vengeance and recompense is shown being repayed right INTO ones bossom (reaping and sowing, and being filled here and now).

Thats why Paul said LEAVE ROOM for WRATH, he pours out his indignation and repays. It says He shall not "meet thee" as A MAN, which agrees with Paul.

His wrath plays a "part" in it that we must give place to. Wrath is another study that could easily be woven into this too

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, AVENGE NOT **yourselves**, but rather **GIVE PLACE TO** WRATH: for it is written, ((( Vengeance is mine ))) I will REPAY, saith the Lord.

HIM not ourselves, as David did not by his own hand take vengeance on Saul and as Abagail stopped David hand from avenging himself on Nabal, the LORD sure enough took care of Nabal. And an evil Spirit from the Lord vexed Saul. Same with Pauls comment concerning Alexander the coppersmith doing him much harm he said "Lord REPAY Him"

Isaiah 47:3 I WILL take vengeance, and I WILL ~NOT~ MEET THEE AS AS MAN

WHOA!

Romans 2:8 But UNTO THEM that ARE contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, **INDIGNATION** and **WRATH**

He pours it out here...

Ezek 22:31 Therefore have I poured out mine INDIGNATION **UPON THEM**; I have consumed them with THE FIRE OF MY WRATH: their OWN WAY have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord GOD.

He reccompenses into ones bossom, thats for sure.

Isaiah 65:6 ((( Behold))) it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but WILL RECOMPENSE, **even recompense** INTO THEIR BOSSOM

Now James speaks to them about **blessing** and **cursing** others (cause they were doing BOTH)... He says (and for good reason) brethren, these things OUGHT NOT BE. The judge stands at the door (even of our lips). As I see it we are MEASURED TO... (as in) what COMES OUT (of our mouth) something ENTERS IN (such as judgment)

An example

Psalm 109:18 As he clothed himself with CURSING like as with his garment, SO **LET IT** COME INTO HIS BOWELS like water, and like oil into his bones.

Proverbs says the power of death and life is "in the tongue" and those who love it will eat the fruit thereof. It also says we are FILLED by the fruit of our own lips. FED with judgment. The tongue defiles the whole body. As our Lord said, Its not what goes INTO our mouth but what comes OUT OF our mouth which defiles a man. James spoke of us cursing or blessing and how this ought not be because what exists our mouth enters into ones "belly" and receives its own fill of fruit (His judgments). We are "measured to" as we are measured to regarding our own judgments as we are will being "answerable to" every idle WORD which is fruit held to our account.

Theres ENDLESS stuff in scripture concerning this, no one ever talks about Gods judgments being in the earth.

[/FONT]
 
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Der Alte

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DA said:
Wow yet another Universalist quotes this one vs. out-of-context. This passage is addressed to Christians, those who build on the foundation of Christ, NOT all mankind! This says nothing about all mankind being saved!
1Co 3:10-14
(10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
(11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
And you omitted this verse.
1Co 3:16-17
(16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
Those who defile the temple of God, God will destroy NOT save!

And yet you missed the whole point because you can't see past your own bias. I did not post that passage to prove "universal salvation" my friend. I only posted it because it mentions those who "suffer loss" and that loss is suffered "by fire". And your definition of the word "kolasis" mentions the suffering of loss, so that portion of the text, that you want to claim I ripped out of context, was the only portion of the passage that was RELEVANT to my point.

The word "kolasis" does NOT occur in 1 Cor 3:15.

Hey, if you believe in a god that punishes for the simple pleasure of doing so, or whose punishments are punitive rather than corrective, so be it. That is not the God of the bible.

Where have I said God "punishes for the simple pleasure of doing so?" This is a common reaction from Universalists whenever someone disagrees with them, start insulting them. I believe the Bible and I can and have supported my beliefs from scripture.

 
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heavensprings

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Thank you for providing this unsupported opinion.

No problem! ;)

In my post, above, I quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia which was written, compiled, and edited by at least 35 Jewish Rabbis. The article records the beliefs of the ancient Jews before and at the time of Jesus, supported by scripture. The Talmud simply records how the Jews, who OBTW spoke and read Hebrew interpreted the scripture.
Why would I believe anything the Pharisee's had to say? Jesus surely didn't.

Does this mean you believe the Talmud to be God's truth?... because it has been compiled by countless Rabbi's?

Just as God has chosen to give mankind zoe only for ages? One word is hardly contradiction. Still waiting for specific evidence.
You're absolutely right. I take back what I wrote about eternal meaning being related to the ages. I use to believe it meant 'age-during' but have recently changed my mind on it. I don't know why I threw that in my post.

Here is what I believe now:

ETERNAL LIFE is not measured in time/length, it is measured in the quality of GOD'S LIFE... God is eternal because that is His inherent character and quality, not because He lasts longer than created time.

2Co 4:18 while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal 'aionios'.

Joh 17:3 "THIS is eternal life >>> that they may KNOW You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Aionion is the unseen realm where God&#8217;s purpose unfolds, describing permanence of result... the thing unto which the Word was sent. One thing that is never said in Scripture to be part of God&#8217;s purpose is aionios thanatos (aionion death).

Now we know God's LIFE, of which we enter into...and can enter into NOW, is endless because He does not have a beginning and an end, it's the quality of His life, and this is what we receive, but is this the same case with 'eternal punishment'?

Remembering it is not eternal punishing, but punishment.
 
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heavensprings

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So if I quoted to you The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, which says that Universal Salvation was the most commonly taught and believed doctrine of the earliest Christians, particularly in the east where Christianity originated and where many of its adherents and teachers spoke/understood the Greek of the NT, indicting that it is this very doctrine that was taught by the majority of the Christian Theological Schools (until it was labeled as "heretical" some 500 years later), you wouldn't have a problem accepting that particular teaching as being true, then?:


Not that I'm a Universalist... though I don't believe in eternal or endless torment or annihilation. I don't like labels and I don't agree with everything 'Universalist'.

Did you realize that Universalism has NEVER been labeled 'heretical' by any council? It's a modern day MYTH!

Here's why:

Were Origen and Origenism anathematized? Many learned writers believe so; an equal number deny that they were condemned; most modern authorities are either undecided or reply with reservations. Relying on the most recent studies on the question it may be held that:
1. It is certain that the fifth general council was convoked exclusively to deal with the affair of the Three Chapters, and that neither Origen nor Origenism were the cause of it.
2. It is certain that the council opened on 5 May, 553, in spite of the protestations of Pope Vigilius, who though at Constantinople refused to attend it, and that in the eight conciliary sessions (from 5 May to 2 June), the Acts of which we possess, only the question of the Three Chapters is treated.
3. Finally it is certain that only the Acts concerning the affair of the Three Chapters were submitted to the pope for his approval, which was given on 8 December, 553, and 23 February, 554.
4. It is a fact that Popes Vigilius, Pelagius I (556-61), Pelagius II (579-90), Gregory the Great (590-604), in treating of the fifth council deal only with the Three Chapters, make no mention of Origenism, and speak as if they did not know of its condemnation.
5. It must be admitted that before the opening of the council, which had been delayed by the resistance of the pope, the bishops already assembled at Constantinople had to consider, by order of the emperor, a form of Origenism that had practically nothing in common with Origen, but which was held, we know, by one of the Origenist parties in Palestine. The arguments in corroboration of this hypothesis may be found in Dickamp (op. cit., 66-141).
6. The bishops certainly subscribed to the fifteen anathemas proposed by the emperor (ibid., 90-96); and admitted Origenist, Theodore of Scythopolis, was forced to retract (ibid., 125-129); but there is no proof that the approbation of the pope, who was at that time protesting against the convocation of the council, was asked.
7. It is easy to understand how this extra-conciliary sentence was mistaken at a later period for a decree of the actual ecumenical council.

 
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Der Alte

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Why would I believe anything the Pharisee's had to say? Jesus surely didn't.

Does this mean you believe the Talmud to be God's truth?... because it has been compiled by countless Rabbi's?

Where does my post say anything about Pharisees? I believe that the Jewish Encyclopedia is an accurate record of the historical beliefs and practices of the ancient Jews. Do you have any credible, verifiable, historical evidence which shows otherwise?
Mat 23:2-3
(2)
Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
(3) All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.​
I explained my view of the Talmud. It will serve as a historical reference until you can produce something else written by the ancient Jews which shows how they interpreted and applied scripture.


Here is what I believe now:

ETERNAL LIFE is not measured in time/length, it is measured in the quality of GOD'S LIFE... God is eternal because that is His inherent character and quality, not because He lasts longer than created time.


2Co 4:18 while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal 'aionios'.

Joh 17:3 "THIS is eternal life >>> that they may KNOW You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

These scripture do not support your assertion!

Aionion is the unseen realm where God’s purpose unfolds, describing permanence of result... the thing unto which the Word was sent. One thing that is never said in Scripture to be part of God’s purpose is aionios thanatos (aionion death).

Now we know God's LIFE, of which we enter into...and can enter into NOW, is endless because He does not have a beginning and an end, it's the quality of His life, and this is what we receive, but is this the same case with 'eternal punishment'?

None of this is found in any Greek lexicon or grammar!

Remembering it is not eternal punishing, but punishment.

An artificial distinction which is not supported by any Greek grammar or lexicon.
 
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angelmom01

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The word "kolasis" does NOT occur in 1 Cor 3:15.
I never said it did.


Where have I said God "punishes for the simple pleasure of doing so?" This is a common reaction from Universalists whenever someone disagrees with them, start insulting them. I believe the Bible and I can and have supported my beliefs from scripture.
No, I misread what you wrote and thought you said that God do not correct to remediate. So sue me. You're not exactly the most humble or charming of posters yourself when it comes to those who disagree with you. I never even posted to you before on this thread (just now coming into the conversation) and all of a sudden you are accusing me of "ignoring" what you said. So if you what to talk about "reactions" look in the mirror. ;)
 
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