There is no hell.

[ShermanN]

Der Alter, I appreciate you noting the Jewish beliefs concerning Gehenna; however, though the article you noted says that Gehenna equates "Hell", if you'll note what is actually written in Rabbinical writings, they actually believed that most people who went to Gehenna were purified and then later rose to Ga Eden (Paradise), like unto Purgatory. Their traditions concerning mourning their dearly departed loved ones, and even prayers, offerings, and baptism for the dead were based upon this belief that most people went to Gehenna but then rose to Ga Eden (Paradise) once they were sufficiently remorseful for their sins (gnashing of teeth) and embraced repentance (weeping).

They did not have agreement but argued concerning the fate of the especially wicked people. Some believed that the especially wicked burnt up in Gehenna (annihilaiton), and others believed that these continued to suffer indefinitely but not necessarily endlessly but as was required by their horrendous sin. However, for most people, Jew and Gentile alike, they agreed that Gehenna was a place of purification, purgation, even healing of the soul; the closest modern theological concept is thus Purgatory, not Hell, Remedial Punishment not Vindictive.

I've copied the paragraphs in your quote from the Jewish Encyclopedia that mention this below.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA .......

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεις Ιστοριαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire. ..............

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA
​

​

 

[Jpark]

Serious heresy? You are saying that when an unbeliever dies he immediately goes to hell... Only to be brought up for judgement- then what? thrown back into Hell? That shows huge ignorance according to the first and second deaths. "hell" (hades) is cast into the lake of fire- they are not the same place.

And ecc 9:10 says everyone goes there. That is the realm of the first death- where Jesus would have gone when he died- and where you and I will go until resurrected..... D.E.A.D. as doorknobs.

No. Hades is literally the "unseen." It is a place where the dead go in the first death.

That's because gehenna was a real place where your body and soul could be destroyed... To suggest that our physical bodies will do anything but decompose at death is ridiculousness. Gehenna is a place you can visit today, not the midieval fairytale of neverending torture...

There is a realm of the first death (sheol, hades) and the realm of the second death (the lake of fire). You cannot distinguish the two because you know no better.

hades, gehenna, and the lake of fire are seperate terms with distinct definitions and functions.

I didn't say Hades is the same as the lake of fire. I said Hades in Luke 16 is clearly a symbolic reference to the Abyss since all other references to Hades refer to death.

Then what does 2 Corinthians 5:8 say? It clearly says there is no time lapse between a man's death and his presence with Christ. In Luke 16, after the rich man died, he was immediately in hell. This is not Hades. This is the Abyss.

I didn't say Gehenna was a place of torment. I said the Abyss was a place of torment.

Gehenna and Hades in the NT are symbolic references to the Abyss.

After a man dies, he is received up to heaven and is present with Christ or is thrust into the Abyss and is in the dwelling place of demons.

Clearly, there is a hell (Matthew 25:41), but there is only one hell.

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alter, I appreciate you noting the Jewish beliefs concerning Gehenna; however, though the article you noted says that Gehenna equates "Hell", if you'll note what is actually written in Rabbinical writings, they actually believed that most people who went to Gehenna were purified and then later rose to Ga Eden (Paradise), like unto Purgatory. Their traditions concerning mourning their dearly departed loved ones, and even prayers, offerings, and baptism for the dead were based upon this belief that most people went to Gehenna but then rose to Ga Eden (Paradise) once they were sufficiently remorseful for their sins (gnashing of teeth) and embraced repentance (weeping).

They did not have agreement but argued concerning the fate of the especially wicked people. Some believed that the especially wicked burnt up in Gehenna (annihilaiton), and others believed that these continued to suffer indefinitely but not necessarily endlessly but as was required by their horrendous sin. However, for most people, Jew and Gentile alike, they agreed that Gehenna was a place of purification, purgation, even healing of the soul; the closest modern theological concept is thus Purgatory, not Hell, Remedial Punishment not Vindictive.

I've copied the paragraphs in your quote from the Jewish Encyclopedia that mention this below.

Let us take a look at the other statements which you omitted. There was some disagreement but far more agreement and let us remember this is only part of a much longer article. And also the view that I am arguing against is that the Bible does not teach a place of unending torment for the unrighteous, that the idea of hell was supposedly copied from paganism by the early church.

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b).

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104).

God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b).

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a).

There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41).

A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b).

All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17).

The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA​

​

​

 

[agape101]

These false explanations are taught and spread all over the internet but the people spreading them have not bothered to research Jewish sources. Here from the Jewish Encyclopedia what the ancient Jews, before the time of Jesus believed and taught about the place of unending punishment. Note the supporting scripture is highlighted in blue.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
​

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b).

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεις Ιστοριαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.) The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA

​

That's laughable...... especially since Jews don't use the term "hell" for anything. The fact is that gehenna is a real place where garbage and bodies were burned outside the city of Jerusalem..., IF you would like to extrapolate from that a belief that Jesus is possibly referring to the orthodox view of "hell"- you are allowed to- but teaching extrapolated assumption is pretty much an opinion.

NOW- I can say that it IS possible Jesus is referring to the coming lake of fire- which is the second death, but definitely not Hades. If he were referring to Hades he could have easily said "hades-fire" but since that doesn't exist, I guess he didn't.

 

[Der Alte]

These false explanations are taught and spread all over the internet but the people spreading them have not bothered to research Jewish sources. Here from the Jewish Encyclopedia what the ancient Jews, before the time of Jesus believed and taught about the place of unending punishment. Note the supporting scripture is highlighted in blue.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b).

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεις Ιστοριαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.) The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA
​

That's laughable...... especially since Jews don't use the term "hell" for anything. The fact is that gehenna is a real place where garbage and bodies were burned outside the city of Jerusalem..., IF you would like to extrapolate from that a belief that Jesus is possibly referring to the orthodox view of "hell"- you are allowed to- but teaching extrapolated assumption is pretty much an opinion.

NOW- I can say that it IS possible Jesus is referring to the coming lake of fire- which is the second death, but definitely not Hades. If he were referring to Hades he could have easily said "hades-fire" but since that doesn't exist, I guess he didn't.

What is laughable is this post. You failed to note that I was quoting the Jewish Encyclopedia, which was written, compiled, and edited by at least 35 Jewish Rabbis and scholars. I have also highlighted the citations from the Talmud, Mishna and other historical Jewish writings, in green. Were you at all knowledgeable in Jewish history you would have known this. If you to click the link you can read the complete article, and the each article shows scans of the printed pages. Many people will believe whatever they read or hear as long as it supports their assumptions/presuppositions even when presented with the truth they will still argue their assumptions/presuppositions.

 

[ShermanN]

Let us take a look at the other statements which you omitted. There was some disagreement but far more agreement and let us remember this is only part of a much longer article. And also the view that I am arguing against is that the Bible does not teach a place of unending torment for the unrighteous, that the idea of hell was supposedly copied from paganism by the early church.

I only copied the sections that I wanted to highlight/reference, to keep things short and not recopy an extended post.

Concerning the Bible teaching a place of unending torment for the unrighteous, I don't believe it does. As you know, the meaning of words and metaphors change over time so it's important to study to find out what words, idioms, and metaphors meant during the time they were spoken. During the time of Christ, the two predominant rabbinical schools of thought were the schools of Hillel and Shammai. They both taught that Gehenna was predominantly (though not exclusively) a "place" or "state of being" for Remedial Punishment.

Most people who went down to Gehenna were tormented (a word itself related to the purification of metal) as needed for the purification/healing of their souls for a season and then they rose to Ga Eden (Paradise). This is what they, Shammai and Hillel, agreed upon, though Hillel was the more gracious of the two. Shammai believed that only those who were extremely righteous went straight to Ga Eden. Hillel believed that many people avoided Gehenna all together.

Concerning people who were considered especially evil, they debated as to whether or not such people were annihilated, burnt up in Gehenna, or tormented there indefinitely. But there was not consensus on either belief.

Thus when Jesus spoke of Gehenna, the predominant meaning of Remedial Punishment is what He likely was speaking of. One passage brings this out wonderfully, Mark 9:42-49.

42"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell (Gehenna), where the fire never goes out. 45And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell (Gehenna). 47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell (Gehenna), 48where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.' 49Everyone will be salted with fire."

Jesus notes how terrible Gehenna is as an incentive to be especially careful in how one treats "children". And in conclusion He notes that "Everyone will be salted with fire." Thus he was affirming that Gehenna had a positive purpose, the purification and healing of the souls submitted to it, for salt was used for purification, healing, and as a preservative - indicating Remedial Punishment!

Why would Jesus note this after such a stern warning? I believe he meant it as caution to help us be careful ourselves to not cause others to sin, and yet be careful to not be judgmental towards others, recognizing that we all do wrong and need forgiveness.

For me, this is a key passage for it clarifies for me that when speaking of Gehenna, Jesus was speaking of Remedial Punishment; it's terrible, but meant to be good, with the purpose of bringing souls to repentance (weeping) and remorse (gnashing of teeth). As I'm sure you know, the foundation for deliverance from evil and healing for our souls is repentance and remorse! I've just come to realize that such repentance and remorse is not limited to this earthly life; in fact, repentance and remorse will find its fullest expression in the life to come when we stand in the perfect light of God and view our lives in unadulterated truth not being able to hide behind our self-deception, thinking more highly of ourselves than we should.

And when one considers that God is love and loves all of humanity, it only makes sense that any punishment from Him would be Remedial in nature, having a positive purpose, not vindictive, the punishment that a loving father disciplines his children with.

 

[JayJay77]

When I asked about Jesus' quote (from Isaiah) in Mark 9:48 (about a "never-ending" death), Evangelica responded:

from Evangelica:
Technically only in the context of the millenium.

I disagree, and will explain after I respond to one more response to my first post.

It'sme responded as well (referring to Isaiah 66:24, Jesus' reference in Mark 9:48):

This is talking others looking at the carcasses of the men , that were alive, but now are dead. That they will looked upon and something repulsive to all flesh. The man is dead, but the worms continue. Like in a garbage dump.
It is not talking about worms having immortality.

Thanks for the response.

I disagree with this explanation, too. Jesus isn't referring to a worm and a fire that never dies in an actual grave. If this were true, where are the fires of the graves for all the wicked in the world? (The worms we could explain easy.)

Revelation talks about the Lake of Fire being the end road of all who are "wicked." "Hell" is thrown there, along with the devil and his helpers. When it is first referenced (with the devil, the beast and the false prophet in Rev. 20:7-10), it is associated with never-ending torment.

Building on this, the writer informs us that "death" and "hades" are thrown there along with anyone else whose name is not written in the book of life.

It specifically says "he" was thrown into the lake of fire, not "his body" was...

Get it? They're alive b/c God calls them in for questioning at the "Great White Throne Judgment."

Evangelica, torment isn't just during the "context of the millennium." It is forever.

 

[JayJay77]

The biggest problem with believing that torment is temporary is that it cheapens righteousness and grace here on earth.

If this is true, why should I keep on living a good, God-pleasing life? If I'm tormented for my disobedience for a short while, why not take a sin-loan out now, and pay later?

Do you see the problem?

 

[Yab Yum]

The biggest problem with believing that torment is temporary is that it cheapens righteousness and grace here on earth.

If this is true, why should I keep on living a good, God-pleasing life? If I'm tormented for my disobedience for a short while, why not take a sin-loan out now, and pay later?

Do you see the problem?

Perhaps the fact that infinity minus one is less than infinity is not exactly going to be a comfort to some people.

 

[JayJay77]

from Yab Yum:
Perhaps the fact that infinity minus one is less than infinity is not exactly going to be a comfort to some people.

Can you explain?

 

[Yab Yum]

If hell is for remediation there can still be remediation which lasts a very very long time. I.e. there can be remediation which does not cheapen righteousness.

 

[Rajni]

The biggest problem with believing that torment is temporary is that it cheapens righteousness and grace here on earth.

If this is true, why should I keep on living a good, God-pleasing life? If I'm tormented for my disobedience for a short while, why not take a sin-loan out now, and pay later?

Do you see the problem?

There's more to living a life pleasing to God than simply heaven-some-day. There are tangible benefits to avoiding living life in the fast lane. Yes, Paul did say that all things are permissible, but he also said that not all things are beneficial. The suffering incurred through disobedience (and every sin has it's own misery built right into it once the pleasure to be had by it, if any, wears off) doesn't have to be endless to be worth avoiding altogether.

Look at it this way -- if people were truly that casual about short-term suffering, we wouldn't bother with anesthesia before major surgery. Therefore, I think it's safe to say that suffering doesn't have to be endless before we consider avoiding it.


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[Der Alte]

I only copied the sections that I wanted to highlight/reference, to keep things short and not recopy an extended post.

Concerning the Bible teaching a place of unending torment for the unrighteous, I don't believe it does. As you know, the meaning of words and metaphors change over time so it's important to study to find out what words, idioms, and metaphors meant during the time they were spoken. During the time of Christ, the two predominant rabbinical schools of thought were the schools of Hillel and Shammai. They both taught that Gehenna was predominantly (though not exclusively) a "place" or "state of being" for Remedial Punishment.

What you believe about Bible doctrines is not relevant unless you can clearly show that in the specific scripture. I am aware that "the meaning of words" etc. changes over time so why are you ignoring the historical evidence I presented which extends from before the time of Christ until the early centuries of the Christian era. I have not seen any evidence concerning the teachings of Hillel and Shammai!

Most people who went down to Gehenna were tormented (a word itself related to the purification of metal) as needed for the purification/healing of their souls for a season and then they rose to Ga Eden (Paradise). This is what they, Shammai and Hillel, agreed upon, though Hillel was the more gracious of the two. Shammai believed that only those who were extremely righteous went straight to Ga Eden. Hillel believed that many people avoided Gehenna all together.

Concerning people who were considered especially evil, they debated as to whether or not such people were annihilated, burnt up in Gehenna, or tormented there indefinitely. But there was not consensus on either belief.

And your source for all this information is what?

Thus when Jesus spoke of Gehenna, the predominant meaning of Remedial Punishment is what He likely was speaking of. One passage brings this out wonderfully, Mark 9:42-49.

42"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell (Gehenna), where the fire never goes out. 45And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell (Gehenna). 47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell (Gehenna), 48where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.' 49Everyone will be salted with fire."

Jesus notes how terrible Gehenna is as an incentive to be especially careful in how one treats "children". And in conclusion He notes that "Everyone will be salted with fire." Thus he was affirming that Gehenna had a positive purpose, the purification and healing of the souls submitted to it, for salt was used for purification, healing, and as a preservative - indicating Remedial Punishment!

First one out-of-context passage does NOT show Jesus' view of eternal punishment. To truly understand Jesus' view read these 28 passages, in the order they occur in the NT, where Jesus is speaking about the fate of the unrighteous. Click to link to previous post

Also you misrepresent the passage it is not talking about children. In Matthew 25:31 ff. Jesus uses the term, "the least of these" to refer to all nations, all tribes which have been gathered at the throne of judgment. As for salt being used as a preservative, while that is correct the application in the passage you cited is sacrifice NOT preservation. Note how you omitted the end of vs. 49, Mar 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. And all sacrifices were destroyed by fire after being salted, they were not rehabilitated.

Why would Jesus note this after such a stern warning? I believe he meant it as caution to help us be careful ourselves to not cause others to sin, and yet be careful to not be judgmental towards others, recognizing that we all do wrong and need forgiveness.

This is called "eisegesis" reading one's own assumptions/presuppositions into the text. This passage says nothing about, "not be judgmental towards others,""we all do wrong and need forgiveness." Rhetorical questions and what you believe are not scripture or evidence.

For me, this is a key passage for it clarifies for me that when speaking of Gehenna, Jesus was speaking of Remedial Punishment; it's terrible, but meant to be good, with the purpose of bringing souls to repentance (weeping) and remorse (gnashing of teeth). As I'm sure you know, the foundation for deliverance from evil and healing for our souls is repentance and remorse! I've just come to realize that such repentance and remorse is not limited to this earthly life; in fact, repentance and remorse will find its fullest expression in the life to come when we stand in the perfect light of God and view our lives in unadulterated truth not being able to hide behind our self-deception, thinking more highly of ourselves than we should.

More assumptions/presuppositions and eisegesis, there is NO mention of remedial anything. Everything in red is humanistic rationalization.

And when one considers that God is love and loves all of humanity, it only makes sense that any punishment from Him would be Remedial in nature, having a positive purpose, not vindictive, the punishment that a loving father disciplines his children with.

More humanisitic rationlization not stated in scripture.

 

[agape101]

The biggest problem with believing that torment is temporary is that it cheapens righteousness and grace here on earth.

If this is true, why should I keep on living a good, God-pleasing life? If I'm tormented for my disobedience for a short while, why not take a sin-loan out now, and pay later?

Do you see the problem?

no. I believe in universal reconciliation/ eventual salvation of all..., and I don't go around trying to sin all the time. In fact- I think the midieval farytale doctrine of neverending torture for the wicked as punishment for unbelief of the creator by the creation is retarded and ridiculous. That's like my mother telling me if I don't do something she's going to chop my head off!!! - no one really believes that. I would argue that a person would have to indoctrinate themselves just to be able to regurgitate that doctrine- as ridiculous as it is...


btw- there is no reference to neverending torment in the NT in the Koine Greek...

If you really believed people were going to be tormented neverendingly for sinning then, my guess is that you wouldn't have much time to surf the christian websites- since it would seem like a huge charge to warn sinners about- that is if you really do believe it...

 

[agape101]

What is laughable is this post. You failed to note that I was quoting the Jewish Encyclopedia, which was written, compiled, and edited by at least 35 Jewish Rabbis and scholars. I have also highlighted the citations from the Talmud, Mishna and other historical Jewish writings, in green. Were you at all knowledgeable in Jewish history you would have known this. If you to click the link you can read the complete article, and the each article shows scans of the printed pages. Many people will believe whatever they read or hear as long as it supports their assumptions/presuppositions even when presented with the truth they will still argue their assumptions/presuppositions.

1. A jewish rabbi wrote "the bible code" that doesn't make it true nor does it mean that jews historically believed it.

2. "hell" is from old English- not a term any jew could even recognize until after the 1600's- and then probably never made it into the jargon of messianic jews until maybe the last two centuries and probably one's that speak primarily english..... but that's just a guess.... and unless you can show me where the term "hell" was used historically in any Jewish writings then I don't care what you extrapolate or assume about your "truth."

read ecc 9:10 - it is clearly stated that Sheol is where the dead go... That's the truth.

 

[ShermanN]

What you believe about Bible doctrines is not relevant unless you can clearly show that in the specific scripture. I am aware that "the meaning of words" etc. changes over time so why are you ignoring the historical evidence I presented which extends from before the time of Christ until the early centuries of the Christian era. I have not seen any evidence concerning the teachings of Hillel and Shammai!

And your source for all this information is what?

The reason that I say "I believe" in many of my posts is because I recognize that my understanding and interpretation of scripture and subsequent beliefs based upon that understanding and interpretation could be wrong. However, I do base my understanding and interpretation upon evidence that I've gathered from significant research and study of scripture.

Concerning Shammai and Hillel's beliefs concerning Gehenna, I'm suprised you haven't ran across that in your studies, and noticed that most of the references noted in the article from the Jewish Encyclopedia come from many years after the 1st century. As you know, Shammai and Hillel are the most significant Rabbinical scholars influencing the time of Christ. Note the following quote:

There will be three groups on the Day of Judgment: one of thoroughly righteous people, one of thoroughly wicked people and one of people in between. The first group will be immediately inscribed for everlasting life; the second group will be doomed in Gehinnom [Hell], as it says, "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence" [Daniel 12:2], the third will go down to Gehinnom and squeal and rise again, as it says, "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on My name and I will answer them" [Zechariah 13:9]... [Babylonian Talmud, tractate Rosh Hashanah 16b-17a]

The school of Hillel suggested a more merciful view, in which the middle group are sent directly to Gan Eden (Heaven) instead of Gehinnom after death. Rabbi Hanina added that all who go down to Gehinnom will go up again, except adulterers, those who put their fellows to shame in public, and those who call their fellows by an obnoxious name [Babylonian Talmud, tractate Baba Metzia 58b].
http://www.religionfacts.com/judaism/beliefs/afterlife.htm

Note that even for Shammai most people fit into the 2nd group, the group believed to go to Gehenna and then rise again to Gan Eden. Hillel was much more merciful believing that most people don't even go to Gehenna.

First one out-of-context passage does NOT show Jesus' view of eternal punishment. To truly understand Jesus' view read these 28 passages, in the order they occur in the NT, where Jesus is speaking about the fate of the unrighteous. Click to link to previous post

Merely dismissing my understanding of Mk.9.49 as "out-of-context" without presenting a different understanding of the verse is useless, as well as presenting a list of other scriptures and assuming that I or others interpret and understand them the same as you do (proof-texting). I find it much better to take one scripture at a time, studying it together within its own context. If you'd like to present your understanding of Mk.9.49 I'll gladly consider it.

Also you misrepresent the passage it is not talking about children. In Matthew 25:31 ff. Jesus uses the term, "the least of these" to refer to all nations, all tribes which have been gathered at the throne of judgment.

The passage under consideration is Mark 9:42-49, not Mt.25. In Mk.9.42, the "little ones" under consideration are "little ones who believe in me", those who are children in faith. It closely follows 9.36-37 which says, "36He took a little child and had him stand among them. Taking him in his arms, he said to them, 37"Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me."

As for salt being used as a preservative, while that is correct the application in the passage you cited is sacrifice NOT preservation. Note how you omitted the end of vs. 49, Mar 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. And all sacrifices were destroyed by fire after being salted, they were not rehabilitated.

First note that I didn't say that salt was "only" but "also" used as a preservative; my point was that it was used in purification, cleansing. And from what you wrote above it seems that you are equating "every one" with "every sacrifice", and then by saying that sacrifices are destroyed by fire, you're implying that this scripture somehow says that everyone shall be destroyed by fire. I don't really know what you're trying to say here.


In this passage, Mk.9.42-50, Jesus uses the fires of Gehenna as a warning to the disciples, warning them to be careful how they treat children in faith. It immediately follows 9.38-41 where John asks if they should stop someone not part of their group from performing miracles in the Jesus' name, which follows Jesus' discourse on the greatest in the kingdom being like a little child.

Note that Jesus is warning the disciples, his apostles of Gehenna, warning that if they, the disciples, sin against children in faith, they will suffer in Gehenna. This passage is not speaking of the judgment of unbelievers, but of the judgment of believers, especially those in leadership - or at least that's what the passage says.

And then Jesus concludes by saying that "Everyone shall be salted by fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt." To be salted, is to be sprinkled, to be flavored, to be purified. Considering that Jesus is warning the disciples of Gehenna, and that the Jews understood Gehenna to be a place of purification, it only makes sense that Jesus is warning the diciples of some form of Remedial Punishment in the afterlife. In fact, everyone shall be subjected to such Remedial Punishment. And not only "every-one" but "every-thing", every sacrifice, every thing we do for the Lord, all of our "works" shall be subjected to fire, purified, salted with salt! Things that are worthless will be burnt up, and even that which is done as inspired by the Lord shall be purified!

So in this passage, Jesus uses Gehenna as a warning of Remedial Judgment and Punishment in the afterlife for Believers; and He is not even speaking of the judgment or punishment of unbelievers.

The reason I highlighted this passage was to note that Jesus used Gehenna, at least in this passage, to speak of Remedial Punishment and Remedial Judgment in the afterlife.

This is called "eisegesis" reading one's own assumptions/presuppositions into the text. This passage says nothing about, "not be judgmental towards others,""we all do wrong and need forgiveness." Rhetorical questions and what you believe are not scripture or evidence.

More assumptions/presuppositions and eisegesis, there is NO mention of remedial anything. Everything in red is humanistic rationalization.

More humanisitic rationlization not stated in scripture.

The note about "not being judgmental towards others" is a message that I got from the passage, though it is not specifically stated. Jesus warns the disciples of Gehenna in response to their negative attitude towards and proposed actions against another believer who was working miracles in the name of Jesus though they did not know him, only knowing he was not part of their "little select group". And of course, this follows Jesus directly challenging their selfish attitudes related to who's the greatest among them.

Such analysis comes from looking at the literary context of the passage, instead of just pulling it out of context. Of course, you're welcome to disregard what I've shared and even just arbitrarily denounce it as, what did you say, "eisegesis" and "humanistic rationalization"; or you can present what you believe Mark 9:42-50 is saying based on your understanding of its context.

I believe it's much better to light a light than to curse (denounce) the darkness. If you understand this passage differently, please do present what you believe and why you believe it.

 

[Der Alte]

1. A jewish rabbi wrote "the bible code" that doesn't make it true nor does it mean that jews historically believed it.

Never heard of the Bible code, and I don't see one shred of evidence for this assertion. But what you fail to realize is what I posted was the ancient beliefs of the Jews as recorded in their historical writings. It has nothing to do with whatever esoteric interpretations one particular person may or may not have derived from scripture. Big difference!

2. "hell" is from old English- not a term any jew could even recognize until after the 1600's- and then probably never made it into the jargon of messianic jews until maybe the last two centuries and probably one's that speak primarily english..... but that's just a guess.... and unless you can show me where the term "hell" was used historically in any Jewish writings then I don't care what you extrapolate or assume about your "truth."

I extrapolated nothing, I just did prove from Jewish writings that the Jews believed in a place of eternal punishment for the unrighteous. It is most unfortunate that people refuse to read and believe the evidence presented.

read ecc 9:10 - it is clearly stated that Sheol is where the dead go... That's the truth.

And in these two passages, God Himself speaking, the dead in sheol have some sort of conscious awareness, they move, speak, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [[size=+1]שאול​

/sheol] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in [size=+1]שאול[/size]/sheol. These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking.

Ezek 32:18-22 (KJV)
18) Son of man, wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell[[size=+1]שאול[/size]/sheol] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword:​

[/SIZE]

 

[angelmom01]

HI Sherman,

Why "in the afterlife" when Christ said "I am come to send fire on the earth" and "NOW is the judgment of this world"?

 

[JayJay77]

from Chaela:
There's more to living a life pleasing to God than simply heaven-some-day. There are tangible benefits to avoiding living life in the fast lane. Yes, Paul did say that all things are permissible, but he also said that not all things are beneficial. The suffering incurred through disobedience (and every sin has it's own misery built right into it once the pleasure to be had by it, if any, wears off) doesn't have to be endless to be worth avoiding altogether.

I know what you're saying, and thanks for the response. However, after reading Hebrews 11 (especially v. 39), I'm not too sure ANY of us are promised "tangible benefits" here on earth. That's why heaven is something to look forward to.

from Agape101:
btw- there is no reference to neverending torment in the NT in the Koine Greek...

Agape, it seems to me that Rev. 20:10 (concerning Satan and his helpers), Jude 13 (blackest darkness "forever"), Mark 9:48 (and Isaiah 66:24) clearly (but symbolically) refer to a state of eternal torment.

The Lake of Fire won't cease to exist someday. It will always be. So, when souls are thrown into it, "their worm will never die." There will always be something left for the worm to eat and for the fire to burn.

Eternal darkness (in Jude) does not mean that one simply does not exist...but to be isolated forever.

It's not God's will that anyone should perish but all have eternal life. But we all know that not everyone chooses to repent.

 

[JayJay77]

It also seems to me that Jesus referred to "eternal punishment" in Matthew 25:46.

"Then they [the goats, i.e. "unrighteous"] will go away to eternal (αἰώνιος, meaning: without end; never ceasing; everlasting) punishment (κόλασις, meaning: correction; penalty), but the righteous to eternal life (ζωή, a) of the absolute fulness of life, both essential and ethical, which belongs to God, and through him both to the hypostatic "logos" and to Christ in whom the "logos" put on human nature
b) life real and genuine, a life active and vigorous, devoted to God, blessed, in the portion even in this world of those who put their trust in Christ, but after the resurrection to be consummated by new accessions (among them a more perfect body), and to last for ever)." (All Greek words and definitions from Strong's Concordance.)


It sure looks like the unrighteous will die forever (but not cease to exist),
and the righteous will be immortal (like God), in the sense that they will have life forever.