If not Mary then who?

[PaladinValer]

Yes Mary held Christ in Human form in her womb.

"Human form." Define.

Now His people men woman and children alike hold Christ in Spirit form in their inner being..

Nope; that's Sabellianism.

 

[boswd]

Yes Mary held Christ in Human form in her womb. Now His people men woman and children alike hold Christ in Spirit form in their inner being..

I don't know MammaZ that is really getting awfully close to Nestorianism, saying that Christ's two nature's aren't joined as one.
IOW's his humanity and his Divinity are separate.
Mary held Christ in his both natures in her womb.

I hope this isn't what is being taught in your church.

 

[PaladinValer]

Jesus the Christ is both God and human, to the entirety of both in all means necessary and possible; the wholeness and completeness of both. As such, He possesses not just one nature or will but two natures and two wills.

These two natures and wills thus form a hypostatic union that is unconfused, unchanged, indivisible, and inseparable. In other words, there is no blending of the two (thus, unconfused), the two are not altered in any sense of the word (thus, unchanged), the two coexist seamlessly and flawlessly (thus indivisible), and the two cannot be picked out (thus, inseparable).

Ultimately, this all means to talk of Jesus the Christ, you are automatically talking about His wholeness of person: the complete hypostatic union. You cannot pick it apart, for that then deprives Jesus of the wholeness of Who He Is.

To not acknowledge St. Mary as Theotopkos, you are saying that Jesus isn't God. This is an absolute fact, not an opinion.

 

[katherine2001]

I agree. Jesus had two distinct natures, but they are inseparable. If the two natures could be separated, then how would we know which one was on the cross and which one was resurrected. If He was less than both human and divine at these moments (as well as during his incarnation and all of His actions during His time on this earth), then we are not saved. Read On the Incarnation by Saint Athanasius, which can be found at www.ccel.org/athanasius/incarnation.toc.html

 

[shinbits]

I'd say it's between Abigail, Ester or Deborah

 

[boswd]

I'd say it's between Abigail, Ester or Deborah

interesting, now how come?

 

[MamaZ]

Christ is one being that was clothed in a Human Body whom Mary carried in her womb.. She birthed Him into the world. God births us into Him through the Holy Spirit that dwells in each and every true believer in Christ. Therefore we His people are HIS temple.. He dwells within us through His Spirit.

 

[shinbits]

interesting, now how come?

Esther's heart and courage saved not only the king's life, but saved the Jews from being wiped out by Haman.

Deborah was a fearless Judge, who stepped up to the role when the other men were too afraid, and led the Israelites to victory in war.
In addition, she was a prophetess.

Abigail was wise and shrewd, and because of that, she saved her husband and all his servants from slaughter at the hand of David.
Thinking about it now, she was great, but probably not as great as the other two I mentioned.

 

[katherine2001]

Christ is one being that was clothed in a Human Body whom Mary carried in her womb.. She birthed Him into the world. God births us into Him through the Holy Spirit that dwells in each and every true believer in Christ. Therefore we His people are HIS temple.. He dwells within us through His Spirit.

Jesus was not just "clothed in a human body". He was and is both 100% human and 100% divine. He was and is human in every way, as well as being divine in every way. He is not two persons, nor is he just divine who took on human flesh. He has two natures, as PV explained. With all due respect, we did not contribute Christ's human nature and body to Him, as Mary did. Only she was given that unique role by God, and if she had said no, God did not have a Plan B. She had that unique role, just as God gives each of us a unique role that can't really be filled by anyone else. If Mary had said no, God would have honored that, since he gives us free will and will respect our decision if we say "no".

 

[PaladinValer]

Christ is one being that was clothed in a Human Body whom Mary carried in her womb.

God the Son was not born. Jesus was. Jesus is the Christ, who is God the Son Incarnate. Therefore, it is theologically incorrect to say that Christ was clothed in a human body, since Christ is the Incarnation. God the Son took upon human vesture, but that vesture is Jesus the Christ in hypostatic union.

She birthed Him into the world. God births us into Him through the Holy Spirit that dwells in each and every true believer in Christ. Therefore we His people are HIS temple.. He dwells within us through His Spirit.

Sabellianism, not Christianity. Jesus =/= Holy Spirit.

Esther's heart and courage saved not only the king's life, but saved the Jews from being wiped out by Haman.

Deborah was a fearless Judge, who stepped up to the role when the other men were too afraid, and led the Israelites to victory in war.
In addition, she was a prophetess.

Abigail was wise and shrewd, and because of that, she saved her husband and all his servants from slaughter at the hand of David.
Thinking about it now, she was great, but probably not as great as the other two I mentioned.

And St. Mary the Theotokos outdid them all by giving birth to God.

Jesus was not just "clothed in a human body". He was and is both 100% human and 100% divine. He was and is human in every way, as well as being divine in every way. He is not two persons, nor is he just divine who took on human flesh. He has two natures, as PV explained. With all due respect, we did not contribute Christ's human nature and body to Him, as Mary did. Only she was given that unique role by God, and if she had said no, God did not have a Plan B. She had that unique role, just as God gives each of us a unique role that can't really be filled by anyone else. If Mary had said no, God would have honored that, since he gives us free will and will respect our decision if we say "no".

 

[shinbits]

And St. Mary the Theotokos outdid them all by giving birth to God.

Mary didn't "do" anything but get pregnant. The women I mentioned actually did something. That's like saying Michael Jordan's mom should be in the Hall of Fame for giving birth to him.

Mary didn't do jack.

 

[PaladinValer]

Mary didn't "do" anything but get pregnant.

She made the choice to do so. Getting pregnant is a "do."

The women I mentioned actually did something.

The one we're mentioning gave birth to salvation. I'd say that trumps the others.

That's like saying Michael Jordan's mom should be in the Hall of Fame for giving birth to him.

Ever read what the Bible says? About the prophecy of St. Mary? In the Magnificat? That all shall call her blessed? Or perhaps did you read what St. Gabriel said of her? That she was full of Grace? Heck; St. Elizabeth says that she was blessed among women.

Bad analogy.

...although to be honest, I'm sure Mr. Jordan would be the first to admit that his mother was an inspiration all his life, a life, I'm sure he'd further admit, he'd never have if it weren't for her.

Isn't that a reason why the Bible reads "honor your father and your mother"?

Mary didn't do jack.

Other than do what no other woman could.

 

[shinbits]

She made the choice to do so. Getting pregnant is a "do."

Way to play semantics just to cling to a weak point. If a fat man lies on his couch all day watching TV, by your definition he's "doing" something, because clicking the remote is a "do".

Mary did jack. She was a nice lady who got chosen. But didn't do anything.

The one we're mentioning gave birth to salvation. I'd say that trumps the others.

It wasn't Mary's choice as to whether or not salvation would be "birthed". If Mary refused, it would've been another woman. So no credit to her for doing anything.

Conversely, had the women I mentioned not acted, it the consequences could've been grave.

Ever read what the Bible says? About the prophecy of St. Mary? In the Magnificat? That all shall call her blessed? Or perhaps did you read what St. Gabriel said of her? That she was full of Grace? Heck; St. Elizabeth says that she was blessed among women.

So....what? She was a really good woman, who got pregnant. That's it. She didn't do anything.

Bad analogy.

That you have no way to argue against. So it's in fact, a good analogy.

...although to be honest, I'm sure Mr. Jordan would be the first to admit that his mother was an inspiration all his life, a life, I'm sure he'd further admit, he'd never have if it weren't for her.

But does that make her any greater than any other mother who raised a son? No.

Isn't that a reason why the Bible reads "honor your father and your mother"?

Honor, not worship.

Other than do what no other woman could.

Give birth? I know lots of women that can do that.

 

[PaladinValer]

Way to play semantics just to cling to a weak point. If a fat man lies on his couch all day watching TV, by your definition he's "doing" something, because clicking the remote is a "do".

Weak is a matter of opinion then.

Its still a verb, either way you slice it.

And mind you, its a poor comparison. If you really, really think that the choice St. Mary the Theotokos had is no different than the choice of a fat man to spend the day on the couch to watch TV, then that's not only disheartening, but is theologically crazy.

Mary did jack. She was a nice lady who got chosen. But didn't do anything.

She did do something: She accepted the choice.

It wasn't Mary's choice as to whether or not salvation would be "birthed". If Mary refused, it would've been another woman. So no credit to her for doing anything.

Yet God does say she deserves due credit. Again: the Magnificat.

And it was St. Mary's choice. And whether you like it or not, you live in a world where she did accept. Therefore, the whole "but if" senario is little more than a flight of fancy. Whimsically amusing, yes, but in the end, of no consequence.

That you have no way to argue against. So it's in fact, a good analogy.

I did argue against it. You even replied to it. Your conclusion is void here.

But does that make her any greater than any other mother who raised a son? No.

Actually, yes.

Honor, not worship.

Dulia =/= latria. Fact of life; fact of language.

Give birth? I know lots of women that can do that.

To God? Only one.

 

[Dorothea]

It wasn't Mary's choice as to whether or not salvation would be "birthed". If Mary refused, it would've been another woman. So no credit to her for doing anything.

Conversely, had the women I mentioned not acted, it the consequences could've been grave.

So....what? She was a really good woman, who got pregnant. That's it. She didn't do anything.

Honor, not worship.


Give birth? I know lots of women that can do that.

Lord, have mercy. So now Mary didn't have free will to decide to accept or decline what the Angel Gabriel told her? She was a robot? She was human, therefore, had human will, unless you believe we're all just God's robots.

Without Mary's saying "yes" to give birth to our Salvation, we wouldn't have it today. I'd say those consequences are quite paramount and don't even compare to your others you listed.

Yes, honor, not worship, of which your post shows no honor for her.

Really? You know lots of women who've given birth to God and our Salvation? Wow.

 

[boswd]

Mary didn't "do" anything but get pregnant. The women I mentioned actually did something. That's like saying Michael Jordan's mom should be in the Hall of Fame for giving birth to him.

Mary didn't do jack.

Well I think you might find many Mother's on here that might just disagree with that statement that raising a child is as you so beautifully put it "NOT DOING JACK". Let alone that Child be Christ. That is the biggest WOWof the day.

So caring for, nuturing, raising, feeding, clothing, protecting our Lord isn't doing Jack?

I mean this is your opinion and you are entitled to it/ it is in my opion a very radical one and borders on if not totally disrespectful to the woman who God chose out of all the women in the world to use to give Christ his humanity.

What I'm curious about is would hold the same opinion of Mary if the Catholics didn't revere her as much?.

Just a guess but I would say you would do a 180

 

[boswd]

Way to play semantics just to cling to a weak point. If a fat man lies on his couch all day watching TV, by your definition he's "doing" something, because clicking the remote is a "do".

Mary did jack. She was a nice lady who got chosen. But didn't do anything.



It wasn't Mary's choice as to whether or not salvation would be "birthed". If Mary refused, it would've been another woman. So no credit to her for doing anything.

Conversely, had the women I mentioned not acted, it the consequences could've been grave.



So....what? She was a really good woman, who got pregnant. That's it. She didn't do anything.


That you have no way to argue against. So it's in fact, a good analogy.


But does that make her any greater than any other mother who raised a son? No.


Honor, not worship.


Give birth? I know lots of women that can do that.

Well there will be time in your life where you just may actually ask Jesus himself if his Mother "Didn't do Jack". or her role is comparable to a fat lazy man watching TV.

I wonder if you will be happy with the response.

Just let us know in advance before you ask him so we can grab a good seat and get some popcorn.

 

[shinbits]

Weak is a matter of opinion then.

Its still a verb, either way you slice it.

okay.

And mind you, its a poor comparison. If you really, really think that the choice St. Mary the Theotokos had is no different than the choice of a fat man to spend the day on the couch to watch TV, then that's not only disheartening, but is theologically crazy.

Only a matter of opinion. clicking the remote is still a verb, any way you slice it.

And it was St. Mary's choice. And whether you like it or not, you live in a world where she did accept. Therefore, the whole "but if" senario isuo little more than a flight of fancy. Whimsically amusing, yes, but in the end, of no consequence.

It her choice whether or not she wanted to take part in it. She had no choice whether salvation came to the world or not. Had she chosen not to take part, another woman would've been chosen.

did argue against it. You even replied to it. Your conclusion is void here.

You didn't argue against it, you merely responded to it. So my conclusion stands.

To God? Only one.

God is unable to impregnate any woman but Mary? Tsk.

 

[shinbits]

Lord, have mercy. So now Mary didn't have free will to decide to accept or decline what the Angel Gabriel told her? She was a robot? She was human, therefore, had human will, unless you believe we're all just God's robots.

Work on your reading comprehension. It seems to need improvement.

I said she had no choice in whether or not salvation came to the world, not that she couldn't chose whether to take part in it.

Seriously.

Without Mary's saying "yes" to give birth to our Salvation, we wouldn't have it today. I'd say those consequences are quite paramount and don't even compare to your others you listed.

So you're saying Mary had the power to stop Christ, who is God, from entering the world, and doing the Father's will? Sad.

Yes, honor, not worship, of which your post shows no honor for her.

Really? You know lots of women who've given birth to God and our Salvation? Wow.

So when I said Mary was a really good woman, that wasn't honoring her?

Your reading comprehension is sad.

 

[shinbits]

Well I think you might find many Mother's on here that might just disagree with that statement that raising a child is as you so beautifully put it "NOT DOING JACK". Let alone that Child be Christ. That is the biggest WOWof the day.

How is raising a child doing anything more than what every mother since the beginning of time has done?

It's not. She didn't do jack different. Remember, Jesus is God, and not dependent on Mary to take care of her, unlike the rest of us, making what she did even less.

So caring for, nuturing, raising, feeding, clothing, protecting our Lord isn't doing Jack?

ANY woman could've done. So what did Mary do more than any other mother? Jack.