The death penalty

[2ndRateMind]

Does Jesus' life and teaching demonstrate that there is a better way than 'an eye for eye, a tooth for a tooth', a way that involves redemption and restoration, or should we continue to pander to ancient, and scripturally overridden, codes of justice?

I only ask because I hear on the news that the federal prosecutors of the alleged 9-11 perpetrators will be seeking the execution of certain Guantanamo inmates.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

 

[Emmy]

Dear 2ndRateMind. I don`t know about a better way, I believe the death penalty is preferable to a long incarceration. Yet I cannot resist pointing out that a quick death is most cruel and depriving the criminal of REPENTANCE, which is against Jesus`s " love for your enemies". The worst sinner should be given a chance to repent, and ask God`s Forgiveness. Life behind bars and realising the utter Evil committed, is a deserved punishment. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[Subdood]

Does Jesus' life and teaching demonstrate that there is a better way than 'an eye for eye, a tooth for a tooth', a way that involves redemption and restoration, or should we continue to pander to ancient, and scripturally overridden, codes of justice?

I only ask because I hear on the news that the federal prosecutors of the alleged 9-11 perpetrators will be seeking the execution of certain Guantanamo inmates.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. - Hebrews 1:1f

The same God who put forth the notion of an eye for an eye, who used to speak to us in various ways, is the same God who speaks to today through His Son. I don't think He has changed or that His message has changed.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. - Hebrews 13:8

The death penalty is not a "lite" topic to be addressed lightly. Punishment has always been taught, condoned, and commanded. It serves to, at the least, highlight the justice of God, but also to punish evil-doing, and as an example/deterant to others who would do similar evil themselves.

Those "certain Guantanamo inmates" you mention are responsible for the deaths of over 3,000 people, the destruction of many millions of dollars in tangible assets, the loss of scores of thousands of jobs (however temporarily), the loss of hundreds of millions in economic damages, - they are responsible for making many widows, many fatherless, etc.

If you consider punishing these evil people "pandering" to some archaic, out-dated law of God, which principles have not changed throughout the millenia, then I have no response - being chagrined to my core anyone would view God's word and His justice in such a trite, disrespectful manner.

If you think these individuals are "redeemable" or "restorable" - I would love to hear what makes you think they, who are fanatically faithful to their own religious beliefs, who think it deserving of immediate death should anyone convert from their religion to another, will respond to some misguided sense of "Christian" grace? They need to be tried in a just court of law. That the prosecutors are seeking the death penalty is not unusual, illegal, or unprecedented at all.

Not to worry though - they're being brought to New York by those of Democrat principles to be "tried by a jury of their peers" - which jury, if they be found (and no doubt their defense attorneys will) will very likely result in not only their acquittal, but their exaltation as well.

I'm curious though - what, in your mind, do you think Jesus would have us do to these individuals, since you appeal to His life and teaching as if it were different than (indeed, pandering to) God's in the Old Testament - what do you think Jesus would have us do?

 

[rcorlew]

Nope, no death penalty from me. I would however give them absolute life in prison sentences do very hard physical work without contact with any other inmates except those whom have received the same sentence.

 

[Webers_Home]

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FAQ: As a professing Christian; who should I listen to: the New Testament's Christ or the Old Testament's God?

Well, that question is certainly a no-brainer.

†. Acts 4:19-20 . .Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge

†. Acts 5:29 . . Peter and the apostles answered and said: We must obey God rather than men.

It's ironic, but true, that pretty good numbers of Christians believe in a fictional Jesus; one that never lived: a radical Jesus rather than a reverent Jesus submissive to the Bible's God.

Jesus taught, and practiced, the Shema.

†. Mtt 4:10 . .Away from me, Satan! For it is written: Worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.

†. Mtt 22:35-38 . . One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: Rabbi, which is the greatest commandment in the Law? Jesus replied: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment.

The Bible's Christ would be a shameless hypocrite had he not practiced what he preached.

I am amazed that any professing Christian might think Jesus, a biological Jew, born under the jurisdiction of Old Testament Judaism— thoroughly obligated to the terms and conditions of Moses' covenanted law—would rebel against Moses or, worse, campaign against Almighty God's sovereign authority in an attempt to repeal the death penalty when Jesus and the God of the Bible are clearly in perfect agreement.

†. Mtt 3:17 . . And a voice from heaven said: This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.

†. John 3:34 . . For he is sent by God. He speaks God's words

†. John 8:26 . . He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of Him.

†. John 8:29 . .The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.

†. John 10:30 . . I and my Father are one.

†. John 12:49 . . For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a mandate, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Jesus was the most observant Jew who ever lived. He never even one time opposed Moses' covenanted law, nor encouraged others to do so.

†. Mtt 5:18-19 . . I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The Bible's God mandates capital punishment in Moses' covenanted law for several kinds of crimes— a law that Jesus himself, as a ritually circumcised, biological Jew, was obligated to obey or risk incurring a curse upon himself.

†. Gal 5:3 . . I testify to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

†. Deut 4:2 . .You shall not add anything to what I command you or take anything away from it, but keep the commandments of Yhvh your God that I enjoin upon you.

†. Deut 5:29-30 . . Be careful, then, to do as Yhvh your God has commanded you. Do not turn aside to the right or to the left: follow only the path that Yhvh your God has enjoined upon you, so that you may thrive and that it may go well with you, and that you may long endure in the land you are to possess.

†. Deut 26:16-18 . .Yhvh your God commands you this day to follow these decrees and laws; carefully observe them with all your heart and with all your soul. You have declared this day that Yhvh is your God and that you will walk in his ways, that you will keep his decrees, commands and laws, and that you will obey him.

†. Deut 27:26 . . Cursed be he who will not uphold the terms of this Law and observe them.

BTW: when people say that Jesus disapproved the death penalty because he favored repentance and forgiveness, they are insinuating that the Old Testament's God is a heartless monster. Well, all I have to say to them is just feast your glims on the awful slaughter in the book of Revelation. The master of ceremonies is He that sitteth upon the throne and The Lamb.

†. Ps 2:7-12 . . I will declare the decree: Yhvh has said unto me: You are My son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for your inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron; you shall dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O you kings: be instructed, you judges of the earth. Serve Yhvh with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[Webers_Home]

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†. 1John 5:16-17 . . If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

NOTE: listed below are a number of sins for which offenders merit the death penalty.

Murder (Gen 9:5-6, Ex 21:12-14, Lev 24:17, Lev 24:21, Num 35:31-34)
Assault and Battery upon parents (Ex 21:15)
Kidnapping (Ex 21:16)
Execrating parents (Ex 21:17)
Harboring a dangerous animal (Ex 21:28-29)
Adultery (Lev 20:10)
Marrying a mother and her daughter (Lev 20:14)
Sleeping with a daughter-in-law (Lev 20:12)
Homosexuality (Lev 20:13)
Sleeping with the wife of one's father (Lev 20:11)
Necromancy (Lev 20:27)
Contempt of court (Deut 17:8-13)
Perjury (Deut 19:16-21)
Breaking the Sabbath (Ex 31:12-17)
Propagating cults and isms (Deut 13:1-18)
Blaspheme (Lev 24:13-16)
Malicious miscarriage (Ex 21:22-24)
Bestiality (Ex 22:18, Lev 20:15-16)
Tainted Virgins (Deut 22:13-21)
Promiscuous Fiancée (Deut 22:23-27)
Sorcery (Ex 22:18)
Chronic juvenile delinquency (Deut 21:18-21)

In addition, there are a number of civil and military felony crimes that merit death such as treason and desertion.

Christians who do such things should be encouraged to man-up (or woman-up; as the case may be) and face the music rather than expect sympathy from either their church or their Christian friends. Christians who pray otherwise are not only attempting to obstruct justice, but also in shameful rebellion against Almighty God's sovereign wishes in regards to criminal justice.

†. Rom 13:3-4 . . For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

But now, supposing you live in a despotic country like North Korea, China, or Zimbabwe and one of your congregation is arrested and sentenced to death for nothing more serious than the political crime of dissent. Can you pray for that? Yes, because that's not one of the sins listed in the Bible worthy of the death penalty. But will your request be granted? Maybe and maybe not since successful prayer is dependent upon consistent obedience.

†. John 15:7 . . If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

†. 1John 3:22 . . And whatsoever we ask, we receive of Him, because we keep His commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[ceh85]

'Thou shalt not kill' seems pretty clear to me. Even if those people are guilty, it doesn't make it right for us to murder them. That is what the death penalty is, institutionalised murder, and in my opinion it doesn't make sense: that person killed someone, therefore we will kill them as well? That is 'eye for an eye' and as Christians we are taught there is a better way.

I would argue for life imprisonment. I agree with Emmy that if they serve a long sentence instead they may repent and come to God.

 

[AmyGlen]

The problem with the death penalty is that it's not our place to take life. God only should be allowed to take people's lives. Plus by cutting these people's lives short we are not giving them the time to repent and becomes Christians. And before someone says, "they don't deserve salvation!" I would just like to remind everyone that nobody deserves salvation, none of us do. God however offers it to us in His mercy and love.

If you think these individuals are "redeemable" or "restorable" - I would love to hear what makes you think they, who are fanatically faithful to their own religious beliefs, who think it deserving of immediate death should anyone convert from their religion to another, will respond to some misguided sense of "Christian" grace? "

God has the power to change any man's heart. You can't underestimate the power of God to change lives and convert people.

 

[Webers_Home]

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RE: 'Thou shalt not kill' seems pretty clear to me.

The God who commanded "Thou shalt not kill" is the very same God who mandated the death penalty for killers.

†. Gen 9:6 . .Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed

†. Num 35:31-34 . .You may not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer who is guilty of a capital crime; he must be put to death . . You shall not pollute the land in which you live; for blood pollutes the land, and the land can have no expiation for blood that is shed on it, except by the blood of him who shed it.

†. Ex 21:12-14 . . He who fatally strikes a man shall be put to death. If he did not do it by design, but it came about by an act of God, I will assign you a place to which he can flee. When a man schemes against another and kills him treacherously, you shall take him from My very altar to be put to death.

RE: I would argue for life imprisonment.

It often comes as a surprise to Bible students that prison is neither an option nor a substitute for the punishments stipulated in God's law. In point of fact, to deviate from God's law in any way at all is a serious offense.

†. Deut 4:2 . .You shall not add anything to what I command you or take anything away from it, but keep the commandments of Yhvh your God that I enjoin upon you.

†. Deut 5:29-30 . . Be careful, then, to do as Yhvh your God has commanded you. Do not turn aside to the right or to the left: follow only the path that Yhvh your God has enjoined upon you

†. Deut 27:26 . . Cursed be he who will not uphold the terms of this Law and observe them.

FAQ: May Christians ignore God's wishes concerning capital punishment? Answer: Never.

†. Rom 3:31 . . Do we, then, nullify The Commandments by this faith? God forbid! Rather, we uphold The Commandments.

†. Rom 7:7 . . What shall we say, then? Are The Commandments evil? God forbid! Indeed I would not have known what sin is except through The Commandments.

†. Rom 7:12 . . The Law is holy, and The commandments are holy and righteous and good.

†. 1John 3:4 . . Whosoever commits sin transgresses also The Commandments: for sin is the transgression of The Commandments.

Christians who defy the death penalty, are not only sinning, but also in open rebellion against the sovereign wishes of the very God whom they profess to worship and serve.

†. Rom 13:3-4 . . For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Lots of quotes...looks like that is yer sentance....looking up quotes to set the captives free

 

[Subdood]

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RE: 'Thou shalt not kill' seems pretty clear to me.

The God who commanded "Thou shalt not kill" is the very same God who mandated the death penalty for killers.

†. Gen 9:6 . .Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed

†. Num 35:31-34 . .You may not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer who is guilty of a capital crime; he must be put to death . . You shall not pollute the land in which you live; for blood pollutes the land, and the land can have no expiation for blood that is shed on it, except by the blood of him who shed it.

†. Ex 21:12-14 . . He who fatally strikes a man shall be put to death. If he did not do it by design, but it came about by an act of God, I will assign you a place to which he can flee. When a man schemes against another and kills him treacherously, you shall take him from My very altar to be put to death.

RE: I would argue for life imprisonment.

It often comes as a surprise to Bible students that prison is neither an option nor a substitute for the punishments stipulated in God's law. In point of fact, to deviate from God's law in any way at all is a serious offense.

†. Deut 4:2 . .You shall not add anything to what I command you or take anything away from it, but keep the commandments of Yhvh your God that I enjoin upon you.

†. Deut 5:29-30 . . Be careful, then, to do as Yhvh your God has commanded you. Do not turn aside to the right or to the left: follow only the path that Yhvh your God has enjoined upon you

†. Deut 27:26 . . Cursed be he who will not uphold the terms of this Law and observe them.

FAQ: May Christians ignore God's wishes concerning capital punishment? Answer: Never.

†. Rom 3:31 . . Do we, then, nullify The Commandments by this faith? God forbid! Rather, we uphold The Commandments.

†. Rom 7:7 . . What shall we say, then? Are The Commandments evil? God forbid! Indeed I would not have known what sin is except through The Commandments.

†. Rom 7:12 . . The Law is holy, and The commandments are holy and righteous and good.

†. 1John 3:4 . . Whosoever commits sin transgresses also The Commandments: for sin is the transgression of The Commandments.

Christians who defy the death penalty, are not only sinning, but also in open rebellion against the sovereign wishes of the very God whom they profess to worship and serve.

†. Rom 13:3-4 . . For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

I appreciate how clearly you outlined the issue scripturally. Thanks! Sadly, the word of God takes back seat to many people's emotions here, seeming more devoted to the sacred "yeah-but" of their feelings and opinions than they are the clarifying truth of God's Word.

God bless...

 

[Webers_Home]

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RE: Lots of quotes...looks like that is yer sentence

No, not a sentence; a duty.

†. Mtt 28:18-20 . . All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations . .teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you

RE: looking up quotes to set the captives free

That is precisely true.

†. John 8:31-32 . . If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed; and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

†. Rom 12:2 . . Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is— that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Far too many Christians are stalled at the Sermon On The Mount thinking that's all Jesus ever believed and taught. Not even! God's alter ego has always been Man's source of divine information; even in the Old Testament.

†. John 1:1-4 . . In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by him, and apart from him nothing came into being that has come into being. In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

†. John 1:18 . . No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father hath declared him.

†. John 5:37 . .The Father who sent me, He has borne witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

†. Luke 24:44-45 . . And he said unto them: These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the Prophets, and in the Psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.

In other words, when Christians cannot see Christ in the Old Testament, it's because he isn't permitting them to.

†. Mtt 11:27 . . No one knows the Son, except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son: and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.

So then, guess where Moses got the Ten Commandments. From God? Yes, but not from the invisible God; no, from the God that's visible: the Word of the New Testament, the very Word whom some Christians think opposes capital punishment.

†. Ex 24:9-11 . .Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: and they saw the God of Israel: and there was under His feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel He laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Capital punishment will find its ultimate fulfillment in the reservoir of liquid flame by means of a method of execution akin to burning at the stake.

†. Rev 20:11-15 . . And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

. . And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

†. Rev 21:8 . . But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and promiscuous persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

The lake of fire is not a pipe dream. John actually saw it; sort of like one of the trailers of a coming attraction that they show in theaters.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[rcorlew]

.
RE: Lots of quotes...looks like that is yer sentence

No, not a sentence; a duty.

†. Mtt 28:18-20 . . All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations . .teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you

RE: looking up quotes to set the captives free

That is precisely true.

†. John 8:31-32 . . If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed; and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

†. Rom 12:2 . . Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is— that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Far too many Christians are stalled at the Sermon On The Mount thinking that's all Jesus ever believed and taught. Not even! God's alter ego has always been Man's source of divine information; even in the Old Testament.

†. John 1:1-4 . . In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by him, and apart from him nothing came into being that has come into being. In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

†. John 1:18 . . No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father hath declared him.

†. John 5:37 . .The Father who sent me, He has borne witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

†. Luke 24:44-45 . . And he said unto them: These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the Prophets, and in the Psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.

In other words, when Christians cannot see Christ in the Old Testament, it's because he isn't permitting them to.

†. Mtt 11:27 . . No one knows the Son, except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son: and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.

So then, guess where Moses got the Ten Commandments. From God? Yes, but not from the invisible God; no, from the God that's visible: the Word of the New Testament, the very Word whom some Christians think opposes capital punishment.

†. Ex 24:9-11 . .Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: and they saw the God of Israel: and there was under His feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel He laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Capital punishment will find its ultimate fulfillment in the reservoir of liquid flame by means of a method of execution akin to burning at the stake.

†. Rev 20:11-15 . . And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

. . And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

†. Rev 21:8 . . But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and promiscuous persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

The lake of fire is not a pipe dream. John actually saw it; sort of like one of the trailers of a coming attraction that they show in theaters.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."

Just in case you are wondering, that was Jesus confronting the use of the death penalty as prescribed by law, the very law that He gave.

 

[ceh85]

.
†. 1John 5:16-17 . . If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

NOTE: listed below are a number of sins for which offenders merit the death penalty.

Murder (Gen 9:5-6, Ex 21:12-14, Lev 24:17, Lev 24:21, Num 35:31-34)
Assault and Battery upon parents (Ex 21:15)
Kidnapping (Ex 21:16)
Execrating parents (Ex 21:17)
Harboring a dangerous animal (Ex 21:28-29)
Adultery (Lev 20:10)
Marrying a mother and her daughter (Lev 20:14)
Sleeping with a daughter-in-law (Lev 20:12)
Homosexuality (Lev 20:13)
Sleeping with the wife of one's father (Lev 20:11)
Necromancy (Lev 20:27)
Contempt of court (Deut 17:8-13)
Perjury (Deut 19:16-21)
Breaking the Sabbath (Ex 31:12-17)
Propagating cults and isms (Deut 13:1-18)
Blaspheme (Lev 24:13-16)
Malicious miscarriage (Ex 21:22-24)
Bestiality (Ex 22:18, Lev 20:15-16)
Tainted Virgins (Deut 22:13-21)
Promiscuous Fiancée (Deut 22:23-27)
Sorcery (Ex 22:18)
Chronic juvenile delinquency (Deut 21:18-21)

In addition, there are a number of civil and military felony crimes that merit death such as treason and desertion.

Christians who do such things should be encouraged to man-up (or woman-up; as the case may be) and face the music rather than expect sympathy from either their church or their Christian friends. Christians who pray otherwise are not only attempting to obstruct justice, but also in shameful rebellion against Almighty God's sovereign wishes in regards to criminal justice.

†. Rom 13:3-4 . . For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

But now, supposing you live in a despotic country like North Korea, China, or Zimbabwe and one of your congregation is arrested and sentenced to death for nothing more serious than the political crime of dissent. Can you pray for that? Yes, because that's not one of the sins listed in the Bible worthy of the death penalty. But will your request be granted? Maybe and maybe not since successful prayer is dependent upon consistent obedience.

†. John 15:7 . . If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

†. 1John 3:22 . . And whatsoever we ask, we receive of Him, because we keep His commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

If all the above crimes are punishable by death, why don't we kill people who commit perjury, for example?

 

[Webers_Home]

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RE: And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." Just in case you are wondering, that was Jesus confronting the use of the death penalty as prescribed by law, the very law that He gave.

Thank you for bringing that up. It so happens to be a particularly favorite passage of mine for demonstrating that the war between the sexes is not Jesus' war, and that he harbors no gender bias whatsoever nor practices a double standard: one for woman and one for men. But if you hoped to utilize that passage to invalidate everything else I've already posted in msgs 5, 6, 9, and 12; then you've made a really big mistake. That incident in the 8th chapter of John only serves to illustrate just how much of a stickler for due process that God's alter ego really is.

God's law mandates death for adulteresses and adulterers.

†. Lev 20:10 . . And the man that commits adultery with another man's wife, even he that commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

However, God's law also mandates the testimony of a minimum of at least two witnesses in capital cases.

†. Deut 17:6-7 . . At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. In this manner shall you put the evil away from among you.

†. Num 35:30 . . One witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die.

God's law also states that the witnesses themselves must be the first to attack.

†. Deut 17:7 . .The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. In this manner shall you put the evil away from among you.

It's always fun to speculate what Jesus wrote on the ground with his finger. Well, I think it was the names of girlfriends whom the adulteress' accusers thought nobody knew about. When Jesus replied by saying "he that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone" he no doubt was referring to those accusers' secret lives and that's why they all took off out of there. The last thing those elite Jews needed was scandal because they loved prestige far more than they loved God.

Back in the 1980's a municipal court judge in San Diego was totally humiliated when a witness was called to testify in a case he was hearing. The witness was a hooker whom he had been frequenting on the sneak. When she took the stand, and recognized the judge as one of her Johns, she exclaimed, right in front of everybody: Why, I didn't know you were a judge! (chuckle) The press had a field day with that one.

Pop Quiz #1: suppose two witnesses had stepped forward; what then?

Answer: Nothing because Jesus was neither a cop nor a judge. He was just an itinerant Bible-thumping preacher up on a soap box in a public place. If the Pharisees had really meant business, they would have hauled the woman before the Sanhedrin rather than Jesus. They only brought her to Jesus to test his faithfulness to God's law. (chuckle) Well, they sure got more than they bargained for, didn't they. Yes, he was 100% faithful in contrast to those elite hypocrites who certainly weren't.

Pop Quiz #2: So then, if the woman really was an adulteress, why did Jesus not condemn her?

Answer: Because in the eyes of God's law, that woman was innocent. It had not been proven the charges against her were true; and you certainly couldn't expect Jesus to act upon hearsay, could you.

BTW: Another important use of that incident is to demonstrate that the damned will be given a fair trial at the Great White Throne of Rev 20:11-15 before being executed in the reservoir of liquid flame.

C.L.I.F.F.
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[Webers_Home]

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RE: If all the above crimes are punishable by death, why don't we kill people who commit perjury, for example?

Because human beings, on the whole, hate theocracy; and much prefer their own laws to God's.

†. Ps 2:2-3 . .The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against Yhvh and against His Anointed, saying: "Let us break their bonds in pieces and cast away their cords from us."

Even Christians dislike God's laws stipulating capital punishment; how much more the Municipal, State, and Federal governments of the world?

†. 1John 2:15 . . Love not the world, neither that which pertains to the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

C.L.I.F.F.
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[david_x]

Does Jesus' life and teaching demonstrate that there is a better way than 'an eye for eye, a tooth for a tooth', a way that involves redemption and restoration, or should we continue to pander to ancient, and scripturally overridden, codes of justice?

I only ask because I hear on the news that the federal prosecutors of the alleged 9-11 perpetrators will be seeking the execution of certain Guantanamo inmates.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

It is the responsibility of the States to seek justice as they see fit. I might hate it but it is their job.

 

[TheOtherHockeyMom]

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RE: If all the above crimes are punishable by death, why don't we kill people who commit perjury, for example?

Because human beings, on the whole, hate theocracy; and much prefer their own laws to God's.

†. Ps 2:2-3 . .The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against Yhvh and against His Anointed, saying: "Let us break their bonds in pieces and cast away their cords from us."

Even Christians dislike God's laws stipulating capital punishment; how much more the Municipal, State, and Federal governments of the world?

†. 1John 2:15 . . Love not the world, neither that which pertains to the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

C.L.I.F.F.
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So, just out of curiosity, would you prefer to live in a place where all the crimes you listed were punishable by death?

 

[Webers_Home]

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RE: So, just out of curiosity, would you prefer to live in a place where all the crimes you listed were punishable by death?

YES.

Something that not every Gentile knows is that when Messiah returns to rule the world, the law of the land will be the Bible's civil laws as stipulated per Moses' covenanted law; and Yhvh's anointed in the second Psalm intends to enforce those laws to the max. Justice will be swift, and there will be no plea bargaining, no appeals, and no penal systems because the only jail that God approves of is Hell.

Christ intends to rule this planet as a despotic monarch, and I for one am really looking forward to it.

†. Ps 2:4-12 . . He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; Yhvh shall hold them in derision. Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, and distress them in His deep displeasure: "Yet I have set My king on My holy hill of Zion."

. . I will declare the decree: Yhvh has said to me: "You are My son, today I have begotten you. Ask of Me, and I will give you the nations for your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron; you shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel."

. . Now therefore, be wise, O kings; learn a lesson, you judges of the earth. Serve Yhvh with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way when his wrath is kindled but a little.

C.L.I.F.F.
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[Ave Maria]

I am against the death penalty. A person should have as long as possible to repent before dying.