John 8:58 and Trinitarians.

[Der Alte]

The day that you can show me credible, verifiable, historical evidence for any organized body of believers, by any name, which believed essentially as you do, between, 90 AD, when the NT was completed, and the 19th century, or later, when all false anti-Trinitarian religions, such as JW, LDS, OP, WWCG, INC, kristadelfian, etc. came into existence, then I will believe you. Posting this same post over and over and over does nothing to convince anyone. Is this your best shot?

History has nothing to do with the facts of God's Word.

Actually the trinity came from Rome. God has always been one; READ your Bible.

History may not have anything to do with the facts of God's word but it certainly reveals whether, or not, a group is part of the church that Jesus built, against which the gates of hell cannot prevail. Therefore if some organized religious body, by any name, which believes essentially as you do, cannot be shown to exist between 90 AD and the late 19th century, then your religious group is not part of that church.

Your history is off by about 800 years +/-. The word Trinity was used by the early church around 180 AD. And the RCC, with a pope at its head, residing in Rome, did not come into existence until the 11th century when the bishop of Rome, Gregory, declared himself the head of the church and the sole authority on all matters of interest to the church, and declared that only the bishop of Rome could use the title of Pope, all presiding bishops had been using the title prior to his declaration.

I agree that God is one but anti-Trinitarians endlessly squabble and bicker about words, used by Trinitarians, trying to express the nature of God, as revealed in scripture, e.g. “Trinity,” ”triune,” ”person," "being," "entity," "substance," "essence," ”nature,” ”who," etc., etc.,

All words are inherently finite and imperfect, therefore these words, "Trinity,” ”triune,” ”person," "being," "entity," "substance," "essence,” ”nature,” ”who," and/or any other words one chooses to mention, are totally inadequate to describe God, the infinite, perfect, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. But the fact that human words are finite, limited and imperfect does not prove or disprove anything about the doctrine of the Trinity.

Here yet again scriptural truths I have posted before, without any so-called unscriptural words or man made doctrines. Notice how I use scripture.

1. There is one God! The Father is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Father is not the Son or the Spirit. Numerous vss. e.g., John 6:27, Gal 1:1, Gal 1:3, Eph 6:23, Philippians 2:11, 1 Thess 1:1, 2 Tim 1:2, Titus 1:4, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:17, et. al.

2. There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit.

[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[3] Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

[10] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

[11] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

[12] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

[17] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

[18] Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he [God] hath purchased with his own blood.

[19] Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[21] Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

[31] Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

[36] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.​

3. There is one God! The Holy Spirit is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Spirit is not the Father or the Son. Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27, Heb 3:7-11, Heb 10:15-17.

There is one God! The Father, the Son, and the Spirit, all three are called/ referred to as God, in scripture, but each has a distinct mind, will, and self; John 16:13, 1 Cor 12:11, Philippians 2:5, John 5:26, Rom 8:27, Matthew 26:39.

 

[2ducklow]

John 17:8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

Isaiah 48:16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me."

Galatians 4:6 God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"

I suggest you read Isaiah 48:12-16. God is clearly the only one speaking here.

Isaiah 48:12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.

Revelation 1:10-18

Jesus and the Father are the first and the last. They are the first and the last of this creation. God created it at the first, and he will destroy it at the last,ergo God the Father is the first and the last. Jesus is also the first and the last. All things were created in, unto, for, and through Jesus Christ, which means Jesus is the reason for all creation. So in that sense he too is the first and the last.

none of the scriptures you quoted prove that Jesus is god, none of them even remotely could be considered proof that Jesus is god. And you offered no reasoning as to why they should be considered proof. also nothing in isa. 48:12-16 proves that Jesus is god either. and you didn't even offer any explanation for why that would prove Jesus is either.

12 Hearken unto me O Jacob, And Israel, my called one,--I, am, the Same I, the first, yea, I, the last: 13 Surely, mine own hand, founded the earth, And, my right hand, stretched out the heavens,--While I was calling unto them, they stood forth, at once 14 Assemble yourselves--all of you and hear, Who among them, hath told these things? he whom Yahweh loveth, will execute--His pleasure, on Babylon, And his stroke on the Chaldeans. 15 I--I, have spoken, Yea I have called him,--I have brought him in, and he shall make prosperous his way. 16 Draw ye near unto me--hear ye this, Not in advance in secret, have I spoken, From the very time it cometh into being, there, am I,--And, now, My Lord Yahweh hath sent me and his spirit. 17 Thus saith Yahweh--Thy Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel,--I--Yahweh, am thy God, Teaching thee to profit, Guiding thee in the way thou shouldest go. 18 Oh! that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments,--Then had been, like a river, thy prosperity, And, thy righteousness, like the waves of the sea: (Rotherham)

 

[2ducklow]

Jesus is God, God is one; not three persons (unless you can showing using God's Word, no where does it say God is three persons). Jesus death was planned long before there was a sinner. Jesus is God manifested in the flesh, no where can you find him in God's Word identified as the second person of the trinity. (ROME) and her baby sisters.

Notice how I use scripture.


Just because Jesus came in a earthy human form did not mean that all of God left high and exalted state and, what the Bible declares is God was manifested in the flesh.


1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

1 Timothy 3:16 And, confessedly great, is the sacred secret of godliness,--Who was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, was made visible unto messengers, was proclaimed among nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.

1 Timothy 3:16 (Amp) 16And great and important and weighty, we confess, is the hidden truth (the mystic secret) of godliness. He [God] was made visible in human flesh, justified and vindicated in the [Holy] Spirit, was seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, [and] taken up in glory.

the earliest manuscripts read ος which means 'who'. No manuscirpt earlier than the 8th or 9th century reads 'God' or 'θεος'.
And "ο' isn't in the earliest manuscripts . The earliest reading for 'o' is manuscript D. So who is the correct reading, which the UBS gives a B rating to , which means it's almost certain in their opinon that it reads who and not god or he.

[qutoe=spartan]
Jesus was God when He walked this earth, but more important He was totally human; but He was not yet glorified because in all things there was a reason for His earthiness, His flesh.

God had a savoir before Adam ever sinned.

1 Peter 1:19but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

[/quote] a totally false translation. the greek word does not mean foreordained it means foreknown.

(Rotherham) 1 Peter 1:20 Foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, but made manifest at a last stage of the times, for the sake of you

(Young) 1 Peter 1:20 foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you,

(Darby) 1 Peter 1:20 foreknown indeed before [the] foundation of [the] world, but who has been manifested at the end of times for your sakes,


(ASV) 1 Peter 1:20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Jesus was not slain from the foundation of t he earth, litrally. the plan of God was from the foundation of the earth that Jesus ,whom god foreknew, would be slain for the sins of the world. Jesus wasn't slain until he was on calvary, some milliniums much later than the time of the foundation of the world.

It was death God desired of this flesh that was manifested; the whole death process. The whole of God can never die, but God’s purpose was by his own blood He would defeat death.

Genesis 2: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die

All died in Adam; all will be made alive in Christ.

 

[Der Alte]

Jesus and the Father are the first and the last. They are the first and the last of this creation. God created it at the first, and he will destroy it at the last,ergo God the Father is the first and the last. Jesus is also the first and the last. All things were created in, unto, for, and through Jesus Christ, which means Jesus is the reason for all creation. So in that sense he too is the first and the last.[ . . . ]

So according to your interpretation there are two "THE first and THE last?" How does that work? If there are two they both cannot be "the first."

 

[Jpark]

nothing you've said is in the bible. and accusing me of rejecting Jesus proves nothing. all you have done is quote scripture, and interpret it in really ridiculous ways such as quoting a scirpture that says Jesus is the son of god to prove that he is god. then accuse me of rejecting Jesus cause i don't reason that the son of God is god. do you guys realize how weak this kind of doctinal proof is? It's no proof.

I know that the Bible is not a strong argument. Only the power of the Holy Spirit can really prove what is right and what is wrong. This is just my attempt of persuasion.

Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Basically, by saying that Trinity is wrong, one is saying that John is wrong.

Isaiah 43:10-11 says "Before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the LORD, and besides Me there is no savior."

Titus 2:13 says looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

And one is saying Paul is wrong.

By saying John and Paul are wrong, one is saying God is wrong, since He inspired Scripture.

 

[Der Alte]

I know that the Bible is not a strong argument. Only the power of the Holy Spirit can really prove what is right and what is wrong. This is just my attempt of persuasion.

Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Basically, by saying that Trinity is wrong, one is saying that John is wrong.

Isaiah 43:10-11 says "Before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the LORD, and besides Me there is no savior."

Titus 2:13 says looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

And one is saying Paul is wrong.

By saying John and Paul are wrong, one is saying God is wrong, since He inspired Scripture.

우리가 선을 행하되 낙심하지 말지니 피곤하지 아니하면 때가 이르매 거두리라

노인목자

 

[Jpark]

What does the Bible teach about the Trinity?

The most difficult thing about the Christian concept of the Trinity is that there is no way to adequately explain it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain. God is infinitely greater than we are; therefore, we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him. The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God. Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different Persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this does not mean the Trinity is not true or that it is not based on the teachings of the Bible.

I can explain it. This is how to understand Trinity.

God is the Holy Spirit.

Jesus, the Spirit of His Son, is the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is the key relation between Jesus and God.

God in essence is Spirit.

One God. One Spirit.

The Spirit of His Son, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God.

 

[Spartan Warrior]

What a bunch of HOGWASH.

I do not even care what human history has to say on this subject... HISTORY is not divine; God's Word is. None of these verses say anything about God is made up of three persons. Where is your so called three persons in scripture? If you cannot prove the three persons of God's makeup USING God's Word... YOU HAVE NO TRINITY. None of these verse prove the trinity; God is one.

History may not have anything to do with the facts of God's word but it certainly reveals whether, or not, a group is part of the church that Jesus built, against which the gates of hell cannot prevail. Therefore if some organized religious body, by any name, which believes essentially as you do, cannot be shown to exist between 90 AD and the late 19th century, then your religious group is not part of that church.

Your history is off by about 800 years +/-. The word Trinity was used by the early church around 180 AD. And the RCC, with a pope at its head, residing in Rome, did not come into existence until the 11th century when the bishop of Rome, Gregory, declared himself the head of the church and the sole authority on all matters of interest to the church, and declared that only the bishop of Rome could use the title of Pope, all presiding bishops had been using the title prior to his declaration.

I agree that God is one but anti-Trinitarians endlessly squabble and bicker about words, used by Trinitarians, trying to express the nature of God, as revealed in scripture, e.g. “Trinity,” ”triune,” ”person," "being," "entity," "substance," "essence," ”nature,” ”who," etc., etc.,

All words are inherently finite and imperfect, therefore these words, "Trinity,” ”triune,” ”person," "being," "entity," "substance," "essence,” ”nature,” ”who," and/or any other words one chooses to mention, are totally inadequate to describe God, the infinite, perfect, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. But the fact that human words are finite, limited and imperfect does not prove or disprove anything about the doctrine of the Trinity.

Here yet again scriptural truths I have posted before, without any so-called unscriptural words or man made doctrines. Notice how I use scripture.

1. There is one God! The Father is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Father is not the Son or the Spirit. Numerous vss. e.g., John 6:27, Gal 1:1, Gal 1:3, Eph 6:23, Philippians 2:11, 1 Thess 1:1, 2 Tim 1:2, Titus 1:4, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:17, et. al.

2. There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit.

[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
​

[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[3] Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

[10] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

[11] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

[12] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

[17] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

[18] Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he [God] hath purchased with his own blood.

[19] Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[21] Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

[31] Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

[36] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
​

3. There is one God! The Holy Spirit is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Spirit is not the Father or the Son. Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27, Heb 3:7-11, Heb 10:15-17.

There is one God! The Father, the Son, and the Spirit, all three are called/ referred to as God, in scripture, but each has a distinct mind, will, and self; John 16:13, 1 Cor 12:11, Philippians 2:5, John 5:26, Rom 8:27, Matthew 26:39.

 

[Spartan Warrior]

Spin.

[/font][/color][/size]

1 Timothy 3:16 And, confessedly great, is the sacred secret of godliness,--Who was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, was made visible unto messengers, was proclaimed among nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.


the earliest manuscripts read ος which means 'who'. No manuscirpt earlier than the 8th or 9th century reads 'God' or 'θεος'.[/font][/color][/size]
And "ο' isn't in the earliest manuscripts . The earliest reading for 'o' is manuscript D. So who is the correct reading, which the UBS gives a B rating to , which means it's almost certain in their opinon that it reads who and not god or he.

[qutoe=spartan]
Jesus was God when He walked this earth, but more important He was totally human; but He was not yet glorified because in all things there was a reason for His earthiness, His flesh.

God had a savoir before Adam ever sinned.

1 Peter 1:19but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

a totally false translation. the greek word does not mean foreordained it means foreknown.

(Rotherham) 1 Peter 1:20 Foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, but made manifest at a last stage of the times, for the sake of you

(Young) 1 Peter 1:20 foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you,

(Darby) 1 Peter 1:20 foreknown indeed before [the] foundation of [the] world, but who has been manifested at the end of times for your sakes,


(ASV) 1 Peter 1:20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,

Jesus was not slain from the foundation of t he earth, litrally. the plan of God was from the foundation of the earth that Jesus ,whom god foreknew, would be slain for the sins of the world. Jesus wasn't slain until he was on calvary, some milliniums much later than the time of the foundation of the world.[/color][/size][/font]
[/quote]

 

[Der Alte]

What a bunch of HOGWASH.

I do not even care what human history has to say on this subject... HISTORY is not divine; God's Word is. None of these verses say anything about God is made up of three persons. Where is your so called three persons in scripture? If you cannot prove the three persons of God's makeup USING God's Word... YOU HAVE NO TRINITY. None of these verse prove the trinity; God is one.

You did not even read the post or address anything in it. All I see is some version of "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!" The scripture I quoted and referenced, show that the father, the son, and the holy spirit are all called or referred to as God and that each one has a distinct self, mind, and will. Saying hogwash does NOT address anything.

 

[Spartan Warrior]

It is soooo simple. God is one. (That is a scriptural fact) Not three persons.

Unless you can show me using God's Word not your spin that God is made up of three persons you have nothing to say. So why should I bother.

If you cannot prove God is three persons YOU HAVE NO TRINITY.

You did not even read the post or address anything in it. All I see is some version of "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!" The scripture I quoted and referenced, show that the father, the son, and the holy spirit are all called or referred to as God and that each one has a distinct self, mind, and will. Saying hogwash does NOT address anything.

 

[Der Alte]

It is soooo simple. God is one. (That is a scriptural fact) Not three persons.

Unless you can show me using God's Word not your spin that God is made up of three persons you have nothing to say. So why should I bother.

If you cannot prove God is three persons YOU HAVE NO TRINITY.

I just did dood, I proved the Trinity, with nothing but scripture. No spin, nothing but the word of God and you can't handle it. All you can do is ignore the word of God, and repeat over and over and over, "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!

 

[Detai]

.

 

[Godfixated]

I just did dood, I proved the Trinity, with nothing but scripture. No spin, nothing but the word of God and you can't handle it. All you can do is ignore the word of God, and repeat over and over and over, "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!

Are you kidding me?! You have proved absolutely nothing and you have used history more than Scripture. You have also failed to ever explain these two verses, as every body else has failed to explain them: James 1:13, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:" and Hebrews 4:15, "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." God cannot be tempted with; however Jesus was tempted with evil just as we are. So, how can Jesus be God if God cannot be tempted with evil. I know you will probably ignore this just like all you Trinitarians have so far in this thread.

Here is a bonus, I will even highlight it for you: Numbers 23:19, "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" and Matthew 16:13, "When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?"

These verses provide more evidence against the trinity than any verse or ECF that you have quoted. I have quoted these arguments and verses probably ten times in this and other threads and not one person has addressed them.

 

[gort]

Are you kidding me?! You have proved absolutely nothing and you have used history more than Scripture. You have also failed to ever explain these two verses, as every body else has failed to explain them: James 1:13, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:" and Hebrews 4:15, "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." God cannot be tempted with; however Jesus was tempted with evil just as we are. So, how can Jesus be God if God cannot be tempted with evil. I know you will probably ignore this just like all you Trinitarians have so far in this thread.

Here is a bonus, I will even highlight it for you: Numbers 23:19, "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" and Matthew 16:13, "When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?"

These verses provide more evidence against the trinity than any verse or ECF that you have quoted. I have quoted these arguments and verses probably ten times in this and other threads and not one person has addressed them.

Pardone for butting in, but I've dealt with others as you in the same question you pose concerning God and temptation.. It's actually your error. YOu see, Israel tempted God. You'll find it in the OT. I won't find it for you. You'll see that God was tempted.

 

[Spartan Warrior]

Handle what? You proved NOTHING.

Is not the trinity made up of three persons, this is the foundation of whole false doctrine?

Oh sure you used scripture to back up what you believe is the trinity; but you did not prove the doctrine of the trinity because you did not show me one verse that said anything about God is made up of "three persons". Until you can prove using scripture God is three persons you have no trinity. So stop spinning and show me using God's Word that God is made up of three person; if you can't you're verses have proven "NOTHING".

I just did dood, I proved the Trinity, with nothing but scripture. No spin, nothing but the word of God and you can't handle it. All you can do is ignore the word of God, and repeat over and over and over, "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!

 

[RibI]

There is a damnable lie out there that nearly all professing Christians believe. It’s known as the trinity doctrine. This teachinglimits God...and denies His plan for a family.

The catholic encyclopedia explains it this way. (and who would know more about the trinity than the Catholics, after all they invented it) and I quote...
“The trinity is unalterableforever.” That means that it’s sealed, closed, unable to grow.

The article gives no biblical reason for believing it, but if you don’t believe it, you’re going to hell... I guess it doesn’t have to make sense.

The trinity is a GIANT lie, that if believed, won’t let you understand the truth about God or the truth of God.

When Jesus came in the flesh, He revealed the Father... In Jo. 1:18 says “No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him”. Before that time God the Father was unknown to mankind in general.

Here Jesus reveals the Father, if the Holy Spirit was a 3rd individual in the Godhead, this was certainly the time to reveal him too...Don’t you think?

In Jo.1 Starting in verse 1 we read...In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. {this was another ideal time to tell us about this 3rd individual if it was true}

The greeting “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ”... or something similar to this is used by Paul in Romans... 1st and 2nd Corinthians...Galatians...Ephesians...Philippians...Colossians...1st and 2nd Thessalonians...1st and 2nd Timothy...Titus...and Philemon. Similar greetings are given in James, 1st John, 2nd John...Jude...and Revelation. All of these can be found within the first 7 verses of these books.

These all seem to me like ideal times to have mentioned the 3rd member of a trinity if one existed, but nothing! You reckon they forgot?

In the 4th and 5th chapters of Rev. there is quite a description of “The Throne Room in Heaven.” In this description we see God on His throne, 24 elders on their thrones, 4 living creatures, and the Lamb, Jesus Christ receiving the prophecy of all prophecies. It seems everyone of importance was there at this most important event.

Everyone that is, except the Holy Spirit. Do those who teach the trinity think his invitation got lost in the Mail or something?

Now the trinitarian idea has been around for a long time in pagan religions, around the world….. It didn’t really get started good in Christendom until 325 A.D. at the council of Nicaea. This council wasn’t called by the religious leaders of the day but by the Pagan Emperor Constantine. His only concern was to quell a dispute among the people, so he wouldn’t have riots on his hands. He wasn’t concerned about truth being taught in the church.

Some cite parts of 1Jo. 5:7-8 which no reliable manuscript contains. 1Jo.5:7-8 should read 7 For there are three that bear witness the Spirit the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

{Of course they agree. The water represents our baptisms, the blood cleanses us of our sins, and God gives us His Spirit to help us along the way. All three are major factors in our conversion. Of course they agree!}

The words added to 1Jo.5:7-8 were added to the margin of the Latin Vulgate in about 545 A.D. then into Greek in about 1215A.D. The added words are totally bogus. They’re meant to lead people into the false doctrine of the trinity.

By the time the KJV was published, the people who worked on it were so steeped in the trinity doctrine, that they thought they’d help God out by referring to the Holy Spirit as he, or him, or himself.

In Greek, as in some other languages nouns are assigned gender, although the gender assigned to something doesn’t mean that, that particular thing is male or female.

It’s a grammatical thing that’s foreign to those of us who only speak English.

Now in the N.T. the Holy Spirit or Spirit of God is referred to 107 times by my count and 102 are assigned the neuter status...or IT status, if you will.

Five times John uses a term that was assigned a masculine gender. This word is translated “The Comforter.”

On top of that, the Hebrew word used in the O.T. is assigned a feminine gender...How does that work? For 3/4 of the Bible the Holy Spirit is a female?...and then in the last 1/4 of the Bible, (because of a word use 5 times that’s assigned a masculine gender) it’s a male?

I guess it doesn’t have to make sense.

So basically, they have taken a few words that were added hundreds of years after the Bible was written, and 5 out of 107 references to the Holy Spirit in the N.T. that were assigned a masculine gender in Greek and built a false doctrine on it.

 

[The Gregorian]

I've been wanting to start a thread discussing this as well... the phrase "Ego eimi" is simply the most basic form of any sentence in the first person singular. "Ego eimi" is not a name... it is a statement that "I" "am."

For example: "I am sitting" and "I am typing."

Jesus said "Before Abraham existed, ego eimi" ... some translate this to "I am." ... but this isn't grammatically the same.

It would be closer translated to "Since before Abraham existed, I HAVE been." It's a statement that he pre-existed his human condition... but NOT necessarily "as his own Father."

Further, the direct translation of what people claim this is refering to is not "I am" either. Instead, it's "I shall become." God didn't say "I am who I am" but "I shall become who I shall become." Which could also be worded "I will prove to be who I will prove to be."

God wasn't suggesting that it was his NAME... he was stating that he would prove who he is.

... when trinitarians use this verse and say "See... Jesus said 'I am.' that means he's God." ... it really disappoints me.

 

[Godfixated]

Pardone for butting in, but I've dealt with others as you in the same question you pose concerning God and temptation.. It's actually your error. YOu see, Israel tempted God. You'll find it in the OT. I won't find it for you. You'll see that God was tempted.

The first problem in your post is that you present an "apparent contradiction" in the Word of God with no attempt to explain of rectify it. The Word does not nor ever will contradict Itself. Everything fits like a hand in a glove, thus if we actually take the time to study, as in 2 Timothy 2:15, we can come an accurate understanding of each of these passages.

The key to this is context. James 1:13 specifically says that God cannot be tempted with evil. "With evil" is the key. Jesus Christ was most assuredly tempted with evil as in Matthew 4:1, "Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil." Being tempted of the devil is definitely tempted by evil. Thus a more accurate statement would be, "How could Jesus be God if God cannot be tempted with evil by Jesus Christ was tempted by evil. God cannot be tempted to sin because He is not a man as it says in Numbers 23:19. The devil was trying to tempt Jesus Christ to sin in disobeying God. Of course Jesus Christ was victorious.

Let's look at a couple of places where God was "tempted" in the Old Testament. The first verse I would like to show would be Exodus 17:1-2, "And all the congregation of the children of Israel journeyed from the wilderness of Sin, after their journeys, according to the commandment of the LORD, and pitched in Rephidim: and there was no water for the people to drink. Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? wherefore do ye tempt the LORD?" Here we see Moses asking the children of Israel why they tempt the Lord. Well a quick glance would have someone say, Oh God was tempted here, but looking deeper into this passage God is not being tempted to sin. They were more like testing God here because they did not believe on Him and thus He had to show another sign of His power. In Exodus 17:7, it explains exactly how they were tempting God. "And he called the name of the place Massah, and Meribah, because of the chiding of the children of Israel, and because they tempted the LORD, saying, Is the LORD among us, or not?" Thus God was not tempted by evil because He was not tempted to sin.

Another passage in the Old Testament where God was tempted would be Numbers 44:20-22, "And the LORD said, I have pardoned according to thy word: But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD. Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;" Again they are not trying to cause God to sin, they are testing in the fact that God had said the land of Canaan is theirs, but they have decided they were no match for the Canaanites. They had seen the wonderful works of God so many times and still they test His power in not believing in what God could do.

 

[scriptures]

Handle what? You proved NOTHING.

Is not the trinity made up of three persons, this is the foundation of whole false doctrine?

Oh sure you used scripture to back up what you believe is the trinity; but you did not prove the doctrine of the trinity because you did not show me one verse that said anything about God is made up of "three persons". Until you can prove using scripture God is three persons you have no trinity. So stop spinning and show me using God's Word that God is made up of three person; if you can't you're verses have proven "NOTHING".

Wow, This is one of the best post I ever read. Excellent!!!! Clear!!!!Truthful!!!!Logical!!!!!Biblical!!!!!