John 8:58 and Trinitarians.

[scriptures]

There are several things wrong with this. First you did not properly identify your source. Which writing of BeDuhn's did this supposedly come from? Second BeDuhn is not known as, nor shown to be, an accredited Greek scholar by any college or university. The fact the BeDuhn has a PhD, is a Professor of Religious Studies, and former chair of the Department of Humanities at Northern Arizona University does NOT make him an authority in Greek. The greatest error is this quote is nothing but some guy giving his opinion. There is NO, ZERO, NONE scholarship to support any of the assertions

That is expected of you, But then again his credentials is enough. Besides educated or not (in greek) we are all humans trying to know our creator. No advantage actually, unless you want to "idolized" this so called scholars.

The better part is there are enough of them to support the "I have been" translation.

So what? There are many ungrammatical translations in the NT.

Really? That is an admittance that your translation of John 8.58 is "ungrammatical"

Unsupported assertion. The early church translated Jn 8:58 the way it is translated in most modern Bibles, and they spoke Greek. Here

What church are you talking about? Third century? That is apostasy church.

Ignores the witness of the early church.

Is that the first century church?

No evidence that this is a Greek idiom. BeDuhn's unsupported opinions are no more relevant than any man on the street.

Maybe you have to read his book.

More unsupported opinion. I am not interested in some speculative way to "cheat out" an interpretation.

Maybe your mind is already close to unbiblical trinity that's why.

The modern versions follow the lead of the early church in translating this passage.

Again your talking about the "apostasy church"

 

[Jpark]

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

John 8:59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

John 10:30 "I and My Father are one."

John 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.

John 10:32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of these works do you stone Me.

John 10:33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.

Basically, no one can deny Trinity unless they reject the doctrine of Paul and testimony of John.

John 21:24 This is the disciple who testifies of these things, and wrote these things; and we know that his testimony is true.

So by saying Trinity is not true and Jesus is not God, you are rejecting two apostles of God.

Acts 8:1 At that time a great persecution arose against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Acts 8:3 As for Saul, he made havoc of the church, entering every house, and dragging off men and women, committing them to prison.

Acts 9:4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"

Saul was not just persecuting the church; Saul was persecuting Jesus.

John 12:48 "He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

You are rejecting Jesus.

 

[Der Alte]

" I am he" is an acceptable translation of the literal "I am" on John 8.58, I have no problem with that since definitely trinity(unbiblical doctrine) is denied. But then again we have to consider the context. The adverbial clause "before Abraham came to be" talks about existence and not identity.

Which grammar, Biblical precedent, or other evidence can you provide which supports "I am he" is an acceptable translation of the literal "I am" on John 8.58?" Your personal assumptions/presuppositions, what you do or don't have a problem with is NOT evidence. None of this argumentation explains why the priests, scribes, and Pharisees would desecrate the most sacred site, ever, in Israel, by murdering Jesus, in the temple, while violating at least 20 other laws. And do all this in front of a large group of ordinary Jews.

The "adverbial clause" does NOT say before "Abraham came to be" and the question put to Jesus was not about his existence, but his age.

 

[Der Alte]

That is expected of you, But then again his credentials is enough. Besides educated or not (in greek) we are all humans trying to know our creator. No advantage actually, unless you want to "idolized" this so called scholars.

Do you idolize "Saint" Jason BeDuhn since you quoted him or rather copy pasted a phony quote from a random online website? And you seem to think that posting in a huge font size somehow makes your arguments valid.

The better part is there are enough of them to support the "I have been" translation.

ZERO, ZIP, ZILCH except for the New Watchtower Travesty (NWT)

Really? That is an admittance that your translation of John 8.58 is "ungrammatical"

What may appear "ungrammatical" in English is quite grammatical in Greek. But you quite evidently don't know the difference.

What church are you talking about? Third century? That is apostasy church.

Repeating over and over and over, "I'm right and you're wrong Am too! Nuh Huh! Apostasy church! Apostasy church!" The apostate church is the WTBTS which did not exist before 1872.

Is that the first century church?

It is NOT the WTBTS which has only been in existence for 137 years.

Maybe you have to read his book.

I have read enough of his book to know he did not say what you posted and claimed he said.

Maybe your mind is already close to unbiblical trinity that's why.

You have no cogent response or argument so you are reduced to empty accusations. So typical of the servants of the watchtower.

Again your talking about the "apostasy church"

Endless accusations with NO, ZERO, NONE evidence for anything.

 

[2ducklow]

" I am he" is an acceptable translation of the literal "I am" on John 8.58, I have no problem with that since definitely trinity(unbiblical doctrine) is denied. But then again we have to consider the context. The adverbial clause "before Abraham came to be" talks about existence and not identity.

So you can't say "Before Abraham was, I am he, the christ, the one who was prophesized to come", because why? Because the jews asked him if he had seen abrham I presume. Then my question would be could Jesus have ignroed thier question, since if Jesus began his life like all other humans, it would be a silly question to ask him if he had seen abraham? Why could it not be that he was continuing his explanation that he was/is the christ? that is what the whole chapter 8 is about, christ explaining why and how he is the christ.

 

[2ducklow]

You are confused. You don't seem to understand that the Jews picked up stones justified in their reasoning; making himself God and thereby blaspheming.

you say they were justified? the bible doesn't.

 

[2ducklow]

Basically, no one can deny Trinity unless they reject the doctrine of Paul and testimony of John.


So by saying Trinity is not true and Jesus is not God, you are rejecting two apostles of God.

You are rejecting Jesus.

nothing you've said is in the bible. and accusing me of rejecting Jesus proves nothing. all you have done is quote scripture, and interpret it in really ridiculous ways such as quoting a scirpture that says Jesus is the son of god to prove that he is god. then accuse me of rejecting Jesus cause i don't reason that the son of God is god. do you guys realize how weak this kind of doctinal proof is? It's no proof.

 

[Jpark]

nothing you've said is in the bible.

John's testimony

John 10:33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.

John 19:35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.

John 21:24 This is the disciple who testifies of these things, and wrote these things; and we know that his testimony is true.

Paul's Doctrine

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Titus 2:11-14 says For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us

Rejecting Jesus

John 12:48 "He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

John 10:30 "I and My Father are one."

Hidden Claim

Undoubtedly a hidden claim to deity.

Matthew 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"

Matthew 19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.

Matthew 19:17 But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

Only God can answer the question of goodness. Jesus answers the question in verse 17.

 

[gort]

you say they were justified? the bible doesn't.

What I said in no way correlates to your assumption.

 

[Der Alte]

So you can't say "Before Abraham was, I am he, the christ, the one who was prophesized to come", because why? Because the jews asked him if he had seen abrham I presume. Then my question would be could Jesus have ignroed thier question, since if Jesus began his life like all other humans, it would be a silly question to ask him if he had seen abraham? Why could it not be that he was continuing his explanation that he was/is the christ? that is what the whole chapter 8 is about, christ explaining why and how he is the christ.

Total fabrication! Jesus only acknowledges one time in the book of John that he is the Messiah, that was to the Samaritan woman and he was alone with her. None of the Jewish leaders in the temple heard, or knew of, Jesus' conversation with the Samaritan woman. Other than the woman at the well, there is no conversation prior to or including John 8:58 which could reasonably be interpreted as Jesus claiming to be the Messiah.

 

[2ducklow]

What I said in no way correlates to your assumption.

it's not an assumption, it's a fact, no scripture says what you assert, which is that the jews picked up stones JUSTIFIED IN THIER REASONING. you made it up it isn't in the bible. you have no defence for your beliefs except what you make up. and of course your rather lengthy negative statements about me,. you have no defence for your beliefs.

The unbelieving Jews understood better than the unbelieving 2ducklow

this proof you offered for your belief that unbelieving Jews were right when they accused Jesus of making himself god,is no proof. negative statemeknts about me are no proof of your doctrine, but it's the only proof you have, other than making up stuff like "the jews were justified."

 

[2ducklow]

John's testimony

John 10:33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.

John 19:35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.

John 21:24 This is the disciple who testifies of these things, and wrote these things; and we know that his testimony is true.

already dealt with this, you ignored what I said.

Paul's Doctrine

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Titus 2:11-14 says For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us

titus 2.14 is based on a grammar rule made uip to prove that Jesus is god. is a junk grammar rule.
here is what god really said.

Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

which in no way identifys Jesus as god.

yiou can't make up grammar rules to prove a doctrine which is what they did with titus 2.13.

Rejecting Jesus

John 12:48 "He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

John 10:30 "I and My Father are one."

John 17:11 And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are.

at any rate, it says they are one, it doesn't say what the one is that they are. You can't say Jesus is g od based on what the bible doesn't say.

Hidden Claim

Undoubtedly a hidden claim to deity.

John 17:11 And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are.


Jesus and god are one the same way the church is suppose to be one, so there goes your hidden claim to diety.

Matthew 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"

Matthew 19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God


Matthew 19:17 But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

Only God can answer the question of goodness. Jesus answers the question in verse 17.

Jesus was saying don't call him good cause only one is god, even god. Matthew 19.17 proves Jesus is not god.

 

[Der Alte]

[ . . . ]titus 2.14 is based on a grammar rule made uip to prove that Jesus is god. is a junk grammar rule.
here is what god really said.

Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

which in no way identifys Jesus as god.

yiou can't make up grammar rules to prove a doctrine which is what they did with titus 2.13.[ . . . ]

Funny, as early as the first century the church recognized that Titus 2:13 called Jesus, God.

Clement Of Alexandria [A.D. 153-217] - Exhortation To The Heathen

This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man. He alone being both, both God and man, — the Author of all blessings to us; by whom we, being taught to live well, are sent on our way to life eternal. For, according to that inspired apostle of the Lord, “the grace of God which bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us, that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for the blessed hope, and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ.”

This is the New Song, the manifestation of the Word that was in the beginning, and before the beginning. The Savior, who existed before, has in recent days appeared. He, who is in Him that truly is, has appeared; for the Word, who “was with God,” and by whom all things were created, has appeared as our Teacher. The Word, who in the beginning bestowed on us life as Creator when He formed us, taught us to live well when He appeared as our Teacher; that as God He might afterwards conduct us to the life which never ends.

Hippolytus Part 2 Dogmatical And Historical Treatise On Christ And Antichrist [170-236 AD]

67. These things, then, I have set shortly before thee, O Theophilus, drawing them from Scripture itself, in order that, maintaining in faith what is written, and anticipating the things that are to be, thou mayest keep thyself void of offense both toward God and toward men, “looking for that blessed hope and appearing of our God and Savior,” when, having raised the saints among us, He will rejoice with them, glorifying the Father. To Him be the glory unto the endless ages of the ages. Amen​

So according to 2dl when did this rule get made up?

 

[gort]

it's not an assumption, it's a fact, no scripture says what you assert, which is that the jews picked up stones JUSTIFIED IN THIER REASONING. you made it up it isn't in the bible. you have no defence for your beliefs except what you make up. and of course your rather lengthy negative statements about me,. you have no defence for your beliefs.
this proof you offered for your belief that unbelieving Jews were right when they accused Jesus of making himself god,is no proof. negative statemeknts about me are no proof of your doctrine, but it's the only proof you have, other than making up stuff like "the jews were justified."

Well duck, if the Jews picked up stones to kill him, dont'cha think they felt justifying doing so?

And isn't it a fact that you feel justified in your reasoning in your war against trinitarianism?

You know, it's an either/or situation here in both cases; you and the pharisees. One either feels justified or one does'nt.

 

[2ducklow]

Well duck, if the Jews picked up stones to kill him, dont'cha think they felt justifying doing so?

doesn't matter if they felt justified or not. a murder can feel justified an often do. . They felt justified so they were justified, is what you are saying, which is absurd.. .,

Jeremiah 3:11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.

Ezekiel 16:51 Neither hath Samaria committed half of thy sins; but thou hast multiplied thine abominations more than they, and hast justified thy sisters in all thine abominations which thou hast done.

Ezekiel 16:52 Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.


the unbelieving Jews have to bear their shame in that they justified their evil deeds of wanting to stone Jesus.


Proverbs 30:12 There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.


Im sure the jews who wanted to stone jesus felt pure in thier own eyes, but they were filthy.
ONce again, you contradict scripture gort.


Or perhaps you meant that they were justified in believing that Jesus made himself god and felt justified in believing that because there is no other thing that "I and my Fahter" could possibly mean, but were wrong in wanting to stone him for t that.

Scripture contradicts the intepretation that Jesus and the Father are one god.

John 17:21-22 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me. And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we are one;


scripture explains how Jesus and the father are one. THe Father is in Jesus and Jesus is in the Father. that is the biblical explanation as to how Jesus and the father are one, which is the same way we the church are to be one. The chuch is one when it is in them. THere is no mention of jesus and The Father being one god, that is the false interpretation the unbeliving Jews placed on what Jesus said, which is the same false interpretation, contradicted by sriupture that you place on that verse. Only difference is they wanted to kill him for it and you don't.

And isn't it a fact that you feel justified in your reasoning in your war against trinitarianism?

I wouldn't call it a war, i would call it getting prepared for the great revival that is going to sweep the world for god and sweep away all false doctrine. I find my reasoning correct, I never thought of it in the light of justified or not. Hummmmm, I thought about it, and yea, i feel justified. when trinity falls it's going to fall lbig time and world wide.

You know, it's an either/or situation here in both cases; you and the pharisees. One either feels justified or one does'nt.

more slander proof , your negative opinon of me proves nothing.

 

[Jpark]

already dealt with this, you ignored what I said.

titus 2.14 is based on a grammar rule made uip to prove that Jesus is god. is a junk grammar rule.
here is what god really said.

Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

which in no way identifys Jesus as god.

yiou can't make up grammar rules to prove a doctrine which is what they did with titus 2.13.



John 17:11 And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are.

at any rate, it says they are one, it doesn't say what the one is that they are. You can't say Jesus is g od based on what the bible doesn't say.


John 17:11 And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are.


Jesus and god are one the same way the church is suppose to be one, so there goes your hidden claim to diety.
Jesus was saying don't call him good cause only one is god, even god. Matthew 19.17 proves Jesus is not god.

John 17:8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

Isaiah 48:16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me."

Galatians 4:6 God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"

I suggest you read Isaiah 48:12-16. God is clearly the only one speaking here.

Isaiah 48:12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.

Revelation 1:10-18

This website gives a better argument.

http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVSermons/SubtleReferencesToTheTrinity.htm

 

[scriptures]

So what? There are many ungrammatical translations in the NT.


.

So far, this is the best I ever read from You.

 

[Der Alte]

Dr Jason BeDuhn has written:
"John 8:58. The traditional translation "Before Abraham was, I am" is slavishly faithful to the literal meaning of the Greek ("Before Abraham came to be, I am"). The result is ungrammatical English. We cannot mix our tenses in such a way. The reason for this ugly rendering is the accident that, in English, the idiomatic "I am" sounds what God says about himself in the Hebrew/Old Testament. This is sheer coincidence. Jesus is not employing a divine title here. He is merely claiming that he existed before Abraham and, of course, he still exists whereas Abraham is dead. There is nothing wrong with the Greek, but we need to take account of the Greek idiom being employed and render the meaning into proper English. The NWT moves a step closer, but doesn't quite get there, because it still sounds awkward. But at least they were trying to convey exactly what the Greek idiom means. It's not that easy to come up with a phrase that works.
"I am before Abraham" would be my choice to cheat our way out of it. Again, the inversion of the word order in the traditional English translation attempts to isolate "I am" as the divine title. But there's nothing unusual in the Greek word order to induce us to deviate from normal English usage here"

How about that?

provide a proper citation for this piece of Dan Brown fiction? As I said it is NOT from the only book BeDuhn wrote about the NT.

 

[Spartan Warrior]

History has nothing to do with the facts of God's Word.

Actually the trinity came from Rome. God has always been one; READ your Bible.

The day that you can show me credible, verifiable, historical evidence for any organized body of believers, by any name, which believed essentially as you do, between, 90 AD, when the NT was completed, and the 19th century, or later, when all false anti-Trinitarian religions, such as JW, LDS, OP, WWCG, INC, kristadelfian, etc. came into existence, then I will believe you. Posting this same post over and over and over does nothing to convince anyone. Is this your best shot?

 

[Spartan Warrior]

Jesus is God, God is one; not three persons (unless you can showing using God's Word, no where does it say God is three persons). Jesus death was planned long before there was a sinner. Jesus is God manifested in the flesh, no where can you find him in God's Word identified as the second person of the trinity. (ROME) and her baby sisters.

Notice how I use scripture.


Just because Jesus came in a earthy human form did not mean that all of God left high and exalted state and, what the Bible declares is God was manifested in the flesh.


1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.



1 Timothy 3:16 (Amp) 16And great and important and weighty, we confess, is the hidden truth (the mystic secret) of godliness. He [God] was made visible in human flesh, justified and vindicated in the [Holy] Spirit, was seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, [and] taken up in glory.

Jesus was God when He walked this earth, but more important He was totally human; but He was not yet glorified because in all things there was a reason for His earthiness, His flesh.

God had a savoir before Adam ever sinned.

1 Peter 1:19but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

It was death God desired of this flesh that was manifested; the whole death process. The whole of God can never die, but God’s purpose was by his own blood He would defeat death.

Genesis 2: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die

All died in Adam; all will be made alive in Christ.

So tell us about the origin (beginning) of Jesus (Logos) and the HOly Spirit. USing the bible, of course.