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Adam and Eve

Mike Elphick

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How do you know embedded age does not include scars?

What does age have to do with scarring?

The navel is often described as a 'scar', but I think it's also a vestige. And remember, in evolution vestigial does NOT mean without function.

I don't know about you, but a woman's body would not be so attractive without her navel, which can therefore be considered a minor secondary sexual characteristic.
 
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AV1611VET

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Philip Gosse...

So evolution is NOT Omphalos as there is absolutely no attempt to make things older than they appear.
So says Philip Gosse.

Henry Morris says otherwise, and so does C.I. Scofield, Charles Ryrie, et al.
See? You've got it the wrong way round, AV! If the idea of Omphalos applies to the earth being created in the act of developing, with trees having rings etc., the same would certainly apply to Adam and Eve and therefore they would have been born with navels.
I asked if mtDNA Eve and y-Adam had belly buttons.

And I couldn't care less if they are considered the earliest humans found, the latest humans found, or anywhere in between; nor do I care if they are single individuals, or the entire planet.

Do they, or do they not, have belly buttons?
 
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AV1611VET

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More importantly, does Santa Claus have a belly button?
Santa Claus didn't start this mtDNA and y- stuff.

You guys can put stuff on paper, but backing it up is another matter, isn't it?
 
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Mike Elphick

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Mike Elphick said:
Philip Gosse...

So evolution is NOT Omphalos as there is absolutely no attempt to make things older than they appear.

So says Philip Gosse.

Henry Morris says otherwise, and so does C.I. Scofield, Charles Ryrie, et al.

But that's what the Omphalos theory is all about! And where exactly does Henry Morris say that "evolution is Omphalos" as stated by you in post #53375281.

AV1611VET said:
Mike Elphick said:
See? You've got it the wrong way round, AV! If the idea of Omphalos applies to the earth being created in the act of developing, with trees having rings etc., the same would certainly apply to Adam and Eve and therefore they would have been born with navels.

I asked if mtDNA Eve and y-Adam had belly buttons.

You did and I told you it was a silly question. Being born with navels does not mean Omphalos, who's hypothessis is that at creation the world was made to look intentionally older than it seems. For goodness sake, read it up.

And I couldn't care less if they are considered the earliest humans found, the latest humans found, or anywhere in between; nor do I care if they are single individuals, or the entire planet.

Of course you couldn't.

Do they, or do they not, have belly buttons?

Oh dear! :wave:
 
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Split Rock

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Henry Morris says otherwise, and so does C.I. Scofield, Charles Ryrie, et al.I asked if mtDNA Eve and y-Adam had belly buttons.
Who cares what Henry Morris said? Now you are giving up on what the Bible says, and going with Henry Morris??

And I couldn't care less if they are considered the earliest humans found, the latest humans found, or anywhere in between; nor do I care if they are single individuals, or the entire planet.

Do they, or do they not, have belly buttons?
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For cryin out loud, they had belly buttons!!!
 
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Tammisto

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I asked if mtDNA Eve and y-Adam had belly buttons.

And I couldn't care less if they are considered the earliest humans found, the latest humans found, or anywhere in between; nor do I care if they are single individuals, or the entire planet.

Do they, or do they not, have belly buttons?

Yes, they had belly buttons. Though I fail to see the relevance of this or how you could possibly use it in one of your semantic arguments.
 
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AV1611VET

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Yes, they had belly buttons. Though I fail to see the relevance of this or how you could possibly use it in one of your semantic arguments.
According to evolution, the first man on the planet had to have a navel --- no ifs, ands, or buttons about it.

But according to Genesis 1, the first man on the planet did not require one; and, in fact, sound doctrine teaches he did not.
 
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Tiberius

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According to evolution, the first man on the planet had to have a navel --- no ifs, ands, or buttons about it.

But according to Genesis 1, the first man on the planet did not require one; and, in fact, sound doctrine teaches he did not.

What part of the Bible states that Adam and Eve did not have belly buttons? Book, chapter and verse please.
 
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Tammisto

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According to evolution, the first man on the planet had to have a navel --- no ifs, ands, or buttons about it.

But according to Genesis 1, the first man on the planet did not require one; and, in fact, sound doctrine teaches he did not.

Where is it stated in the bible that Adam had no belly button? But before that provide evidence for the validity of the bible.

Edit: Besides that the so callled Y adam and mtDNA eve are not the first humans anyway.
 
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Cabal

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It's the word of AV, therefore you don't need Bible verses to back it up.

Seems like a backtrack on all his earlier everything-is-embedded malarkey anyway. Can't say it improves it any, either.
 
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Mike Elphick

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According to evolution, the first man on the planet had to have a navel --- no ifs, ands, or buttons about it.

But according to Genesis 1, the first man on the planet did not require one;

So what? This is all getting pretty silly. Your argument was that if, according to the ToE, the first humans had navels then:-

Evolution is Omphalos, in that the first man and woman would have belly buttons.

Whereas the Adam and Eve of the Bible would not, and that fact would be a testimony to their progeny.

But, as I've pointed out before, this is not the case at all. In fact I asked you to read it up, as you clearly don't understand the hypothesis. Allow me to refresh your memory:-

The Omphalos hypothesis was named after the title of an 1857 book, Omphalos by Philip Henry Gosse, in which Gosse argued that in order for the world to be "functional", God must have created the Earth with mountains and canyons, trees with growth rings, Adam and Eve with hair, fingernails, and navels (omphalos is Greek for "navel"), and that therefore no evidence that we can see of the presumed age of the earth and universe can be taken as reliable. The idea has seen some revival in the twentieth century by some modern creationists, who have extended the argument to light that appears to originate in far-off stars and galaxies (although other creationists reject this explanation).

Omphalos is a young earth creationist hypothesis and has nothing to do with evolution where there is no need for things to appear any other age that what they are. Thus the fact that Mitochondrial Eve and Y-Chromosome Adam both had navels does not mean they were at a different development age than that of their appearance. For some young earth creationists (before Ken Ham), there was a need to counteract early estimates of the Earth's age, because it was thought a functioning earth with seas, mountains, canyons and flowing water would take time to form. So, according to the hypothesis, God created everything in a working state that had the appearance of age without being actually old, including the provision of Adam and Eve's navels, even though they were created as adults.

...and, in fact, sound doctrine teaches he did not.

Let me repeat, Omphalos is without doubt a creationist invention, but it is no longer accepted by 'main stream' YECsts, who have invented other fancy excuses for explaining the structure of the Earth and the measured age of the universe being massively longer that their genealogical date of 6,000 years or so. Thus according to Answers in Genesis:-

When God created Adam and Eve in mature form, the day they were created they might have appeared to be, say, 30 years old. But God wouldn't want or need to create the appearance of a false history, any more than the mature trees created by God would have had growth rings initially. Those are things which would develop in their offspring as a result of processes later on.

So YECists these days claim that Adam and Eve had no navels and that trees were created without rings, but absolute tree-ring chronology for extant and fossil trees can be traced back nearly 13,000 years - twice the age of the YECist universe! Very unsound doctrine indeed!
 
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AV1611VET

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Which is why AV claims over and over that he is not a YEC and that in fact everyone is a creationist in some respect, which is to say, he likes playing with words, probably why there was that "misunderstanding" with Omphalos.
No misunderstanding, my friend.

Omphalos = navel

y-Adam had a navel

y-Adam = Omphalos

You need to realize that Omphalism necessitates a false history.

Evolution, from the perspective of YEC and Embedded Age = false history.
 
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Mike Elphick

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No misunderstanding, my friend.

Omphalos = navel

y-Adam had a navel

y-Adam = Omphalos

Much misunderstanding. For the third time, Omphalos in this context does NOT mean navel. It is a creationist hypothesis named after the Greek word for navel.

You need to realize that Omphalism necessitates a false history.

Yes, you got that one right, it's false CREATIONIST history.

Evolution, from the perspective of YEC and Embedded Age = false history.

I see you're wriggling AV. Please don't make yourself seem even more uninformed by twisting the Omphalos hypothesis to mean 'embedded age', because that's the OPPOSITE of what the hypothesis is all about - it's actually making an excuse for observed embedded age. For goodness sake read it up!
 
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AV1611VET

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Please don't make yourself seem even more uninformed by twisting the Omphalos hypothesis to mean 'embedded age'...
Don't worry --- if anyone knows the difference --- I do.

QV please: 260 and 18.
 
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Cabal

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No misunderstanding, my friend.

Omphalos = navel

y-Adam had a navel

y-Adam = Omphalos

You need to realize that Omphalism necessitates a false history.

Evolution, from the perspective of YEC and Embedded Age = false history.

Ah, a twisted definition. Thought as much.

/thread.
 
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Mike Elphick

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Mike Elphick said:
Please don't make yourself seem even more uninformed by twisting the Omphalos hypothesis to mean 'embedded age', because that's the OPPOSITE of what the hypothesis is all about - it's actually making an excuse for observed embedded age.

Don't worry --- if anyone knows the difference --- I do.

QV please: 260 and 18.

Let's see...
AV1611VET said:
FishFace said:
1. Is there a meaningful distinction between "embedded age" and "embedded history?"

Yes

FishFace said:
2. What do they each mean?

Embedded age = maturity w/o history; embedded history = maturity with history.

FishFace said:
3. Do they mean anything other than the appearance of being old?

Yes; embedded age is having maturity w/o a past; embedded history is having maturity with a past you didn't live.

FishFace said:
4. If so, is embedded age meaningfully distinct from actual age?

Yes; in the area of having a history.

Grand sounding, but very muddled semantics.

Age is a property of an object who's date of creation/construction/formation lies in the past and that has the potential of being measured or estimated. So what I meant by embedded age (your expression) is the characteristics of an object that has aged.

For you, 'embedded age' has nothing to do with real age, but with appearances - much like the 'stressed' wooden furniture you can buy these days and expensive reproduction pieces. For me, it would be antiques that have age 'embedded'.

It seems different people use different definitions, which make the expression 'embedded age' pretty meaningless without providing a prior definition, which you did not.

Googling "embedded age" brings up nearly 4,000 hits, but adding "ompahalos" brings up only two, both related to posts made by your goodself, which makes your definition unique to you alone. Of course creationists can make anything up, even their own definitions.
 
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