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Should Revelations be studied?
- Thread starter Stryder06
- Start date
S
Spartan Warrior
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Amen
I agree with your assessment but what does man's history have to do with that which is spiritual?
Being blown out of proportion always happens when religious man trys to fit his preconceived opinion instead of backing it up with God's divine Word.
If you want to know the truth then lets God's Spirit open up its meaning using the scriptures for your examples instead of mans fleshly understanding.
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Spartan, I never said that Revelation wasn't symbolic. I said that not all of it is symbolic, and that is mostly in regards to the seven last plagues and the heavenly city. The city actually exists, and the plagues are going to fall soon.
There's a difference between dreams and visions. John wasn't given a dream, he was given a vision.
What do you mean you can't find any mention of it being literal? I've already given you two literal events that are to take place, the pouring out of the vials of God's wrath, and the New Jerusalem.
Honestly, I don't even know what you mean by spiritual. It seems as if you're trying to learn life lessons from the book instead of learning about how things in the end time will transpire.
The way all prophecy is to be understood, in context and historically.
John see's four beast in Revelation followed by a fifth. The same vision was seen by Daniel. Each beast represented a kingdom that came and left. Babylon = Lion, Persia = Bear, Greece = Leopard, Rome = Horrible Beast.
Man can interpret the bible however he wants, but because prophecy is of no private interpretation as 2 Peter 1:20 tells us, we know that there is only one accurate view, and that is to look at it historically.
Where do you get this from? The beast represents a nation. Only. It doesn't represent our inward beastly nature. That's not biblical at all. Look at the characteristics of each beast and then compare them with the nations they represent.
I don't know where you're getting this realm talk from, but it surely isn't the bible. Man has the understanding that God has given us. He tells us things in ways that we can understand. God has to come down to our level of understanding because it's impossible for us to go "up" to His level.
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Son of Israel
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According to the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation that will be after the 2 Great Battles of "Armegeddon" and "Gog/Magog". [I made a seperate thread on that]
I and some others view these as fulfilled on OC "Israel/Judah/Jerusalem" myself as I do all of Daniel and the Olivet Discourse......or else JESUS made false prophecies to the OC Judeans/Israelites as the Jews of today believe
Reve 16:16 And he together-assembles/leads/sun-agagein <4863> (5629) them into the Place, the being called to Hebrew Armageddwn
Reve 20:8 And he shall be coming out to deceive the Nations, the in the four corners of the land, the Gog and the Magog, together-assembles/leads/sun-agagein <4863> (5629) them into the Battle of which the Number as the Sand of the Sea. [Reve 16:14]
Jerusalem was destroyed in AD 70 as Jesus foretold His disciples. He warned them in the Olivet Prophecy, He warned them again around AD 68 by sending the Revelation of Jesus Christ to James in Jerusalem prior, by giving the Revelation to John on Patmos, from there delivering John and the book to James.
What verse would someone think was still future?
It is possible that there might be a double fulfillment as per a man of God that I know. But if so, it would be against Jerusalem, for it is a book against the anti-christ Jews and Jerusalem, their burning destruction of that Great harlot that God pronounced upon them clear back in Leviticus.
An exegesis is the only way to understand the book.
God never changes His theme, Example...
(Gen 38:24) And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt.
(Lev 21:9) And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the harlot, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.
(Mat 23:37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
(Mat 23:38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
(Isa 1:1) The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem...
(Isa 1:21) How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
(Jer 3:8) And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
(Eze 16:2) Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,
(Eze 16:15) But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.
The Jerusalem Harlot laid down with the Babylonians in the "bed of love".
(she 'married' herself to them')
(Eze 23:17) And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them.
harlot/harlot, abomination, desolation, burnt with fire... the curse is upon Jerusalem harlot who WIDOWED HERSELF...
The exact same theme continues...
(Rev 17:16) And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
(Rev 18:7) How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
(Rev 17:5) And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Who is she again?
(Rev 18:24) And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Where are the prophets killed?
(Luk 13:33) Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
Again, who is that desolated one?
(Luk 13:34) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
(Luk 13:35) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
(Mat 23:29) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
(Mat 23:30) And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
(Mat 23:31) Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
(Mat 23:32) Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
(Mat 23:33) Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
(Mat 23:34) Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
(Mat 23:35) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
(Mat 23:36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
(Mat 27:25) Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
(Rev 17:6) And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus...
(Rev 18:21) And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
This is an "Exegesis".
It means, letting God teach you out of His Word.
It is quite differant from an "Isogesis" way of reading the Bible.
An Isogesis manner of Bible study is to follow after someone else's ideas and guidance as to what it "MEANS".
That is the path to great delusion and controversy.
Such as what I see on this thread so far in those pushing for some other explanation other than what Jesus Christ Reveals by His Word in "EXEGESIS".
EXEGESIS, remember that word and that manner of learning from God my dear friends.
Try any of the scripture in Revelation, you will be astounded what Christ will show you
Son of Israel
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S
Spartan Warrior
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Stryder06
I disagree with youre assessment, yes there is a New Jerusalem and it is real but it is spiritual; the plagues are spiritual symbolisms also. Your two events you gave are your interpretation of how you see it; what you claim cannot be backed up with scripture unless you want to give me chapter and verse, which you cannot that Revelation is partially literal.
If you do not understand what spiritual is you better do some spiritual searching because maybe you never notice it but God is a spirit, we are carnal (beastly); true worshipers worship him in spirit and truth not literally. Revelation is not so much about the end of time as mush as is the revelation or the unveiling of Jesus Christ with in us; not outwardly; the beast, the battle of Armageddon, the plaques, the candlesticks, the seven churches are with in us and are symbolic (I already pointed this out in scripture)
If anyone is giving private interpretation it is you unless you can show that revelation is "partial literal" as you claim by your assumption. Show me where revelation should be interpreted historically using scripture please? Where do you get your information, are we suppose to assume all truth? Context of what history?
So are you saying there is no beastly nature in man and you do not have not carnal beastly nature, perhaps Hitler was spiritual afterall? It is called our flesh, carnal nature, Adamic nature it is that nature God caused in all of us because of the fall. Man is dead in truspasses and sin.
The "mark of the beast" is the direct opposite to the "MARK OF GOD," and is an imprint of the nature and character of this world's bestial system. The challenge to OVERCOME this mark of the bestial has been with us a long time-- ever since "The Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to KEEP (guard) it." (Genesis 2:15).
There was a beast waiting to place its mark upon the Adam. "The serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made." (Genesis 3:1 ). And in Revelation we again have this charge to guard against the beast, and the system which it represents.
We find that the IMPRINT was made when Eve responded to the serpent's argument, which caused her to "take of the fruit," which had been forbidden her. Immediately the mark was in her forehead, and then in her hand. Adam joined her in this receiving of the mark. And having taken the imprint-- they began to manifest the nature, character of the bestial, in selfish, rebellious, minding the flesh behavior.
In Revelation, again the hand and the mind are involved with the mark of the beast-- the influence that causes one to think and act according to the ways of the world.
It is this flesh nature that identifies us with this world's carnality. "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, sedition, heresies, envying, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: - they that do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." But then in contra-distinction to such negativism, we find that the new Christ nature bears a far different imprint, for "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance." (Galatians 5:19-23). O, to bear the mark of God!
Not only is the bestial mark stamped upon the nature of man, to influence his thinking, and his handiwork, but we live under the mark of the beast by living in this commercialized world order. "That no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." If we buy a car, a home, clothes, food, pay taxes, etc. it is all under the mark of the beast. Whether we use a barter system, or silver coins, we have to do business according to our culture and order of society.
The name, nature, character of the beast touches every facet of our natural life. Yet Jesus had no trouble with this, and He instructed the people to "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." (Mark 12:17). So when faced with the demand for tribute money, He said to Peter, "Lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for Me and thee." (Matthew 17:27). He used the money of the system to pay the tribute of the system, and in doing so, He made sure that no one could say He owed them anything. Even though HE TRULY BELONGED TO A DIFFERENT ORDER, THE HEAVENLY, yet He submitted to the present order, while He maintained a PURE SPIRIT un- touched by that order. He did not rebel against that society, for such rebellion would have defiled Him, having partaken of the world's spirit of rebellion. He gave the system its due, and therefore was free of any obligation to it.
I disagree there are many levels of spirituality. I heard a Baptist say on the radio one day that when you see something in scriptures that is so awesome and so impossible and only a few can see it. That is spiritual.
Revelation shows this in many ways which I will be glad to point out later.
You do yourself a disservice to try to think you can understand deep spiritual matters with these short paragraphs. Being spiritual has nothing to do with religion. There were men in the Old that were probably far more spiritual then most believers today; even though the Holy spirit had not been poured out yet, we see this with David and Moses. Just because you refuse to seek God in a spirit and truth does not mean there is not deeper spiritual realms.
Psalm 103:7
He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel.
Moses knew God face to face; not like the children of Israel who knew only Gods acts. The blind lead the blind in religion today; they know only the acts
In my Fathers house are many mansions; or Greek abiding place. We all have a different abiding places. If God has not called you in another abiding place/spiritual room/spiritual plane/deeper understanding then that is all you can understand. Many are shallow, superficial, and religious or where ever God has placed them.
I disagree with youre assessment, yes there is a New Jerusalem and it is real but it is spiritual; the plagues are spiritual symbolisms also. Your two events you gave are your interpretation of how you see it; what you claim cannot be backed up with scripture unless you want to give me chapter and verse, which you cannot that Revelation is partially literal.
If you do not understand what spiritual is you better do some spiritual searching because maybe you never notice it but God is a spirit, we are carnal (beastly); true worshipers worship him in spirit and truth not literally. Revelation is not so much about the end of time as mush as is the revelation or the unveiling of Jesus Christ with in us; not outwardly; the beast, the battle of Armageddon, the plaques, the candlesticks, the seven churches are with in us and are symbolic (I already pointed this out in scripture)
If anyone is giving private interpretation it is you unless you can show that revelation is "partial literal" as you claim by your assumption. Show me where revelation should be interpreted historically using scripture please? Where do you get your information, are we suppose to assume all truth? Context of what history?
So are you saying there is no beastly nature in man and you do not have not carnal beastly nature, perhaps Hitler was spiritual afterall? It is called our flesh, carnal nature, Adamic nature it is that nature God caused in all of us because of the fall. Man is dead in truspasses and sin.
The "mark of the beast" is the direct opposite to the "MARK OF GOD," and is an imprint of the nature and character of this world's bestial system. The challenge to OVERCOME this mark of the bestial has been with us a long time-- ever since "The Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to KEEP (guard) it." (Genesis 2:15).
There was a beast waiting to place its mark upon the Adam. "The serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made." (Genesis 3:1 ). And in Revelation we again have this charge to guard against the beast, and the system which it represents.
We find that the IMPRINT was made when Eve responded to the serpent's argument, which caused her to "take of the fruit," which had been forbidden her. Immediately the mark was in her forehead, and then in her hand. Adam joined her in this receiving of the mark. And having taken the imprint-- they began to manifest the nature, character of the bestial, in selfish, rebellious, minding the flesh behavior.
In Revelation, again the hand and the mind are involved with the mark of the beast-- the influence that causes one to think and act according to the ways of the world.
It is this flesh nature that identifies us with this world's carnality. "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, sedition, heresies, envying, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: - they that do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." But then in contra-distinction to such negativism, we find that the new Christ nature bears a far different imprint, for "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance." (Galatians 5:19-23). O, to bear the mark of God!
Not only is the bestial mark stamped upon the nature of man, to influence his thinking, and his handiwork, but we live under the mark of the beast by living in this commercialized world order. "That no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." If we buy a car, a home, clothes, food, pay taxes, etc. it is all under the mark of the beast. Whether we use a barter system, or silver coins, we have to do business according to our culture and order of society.
The name, nature, character of the beast touches every facet of our natural life. Yet Jesus had no trouble with this, and He instructed the people to "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." (Mark 12:17). So when faced with the demand for tribute money, He said to Peter, "Lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for Me and thee." (Matthew 17:27). He used the money of the system to pay the tribute of the system, and in doing so, He made sure that no one could say He owed them anything. Even though HE TRULY BELONGED TO A DIFFERENT ORDER, THE HEAVENLY, yet He submitted to the present order, while He maintained a PURE SPIRIT un- touched by that order. He did not rebel against that society, for such rebellion would have defiled Him, having partaken of the world's spirit of rebellion. He gave the system its due, and therefore was free of any obligation to it.
I disagree there are many levels of spirituality. I heard a Baptist say on the radio one day that when you see something in scriptures that is so awesome and so impossible and only a few can see it. That is spiritual.
Revelation shows this in many ways which I will be glad to point out later.
You do yourself a disservice to try to think you can understand deep spiritual matters with these short paragraphs. Being spiritual has nothing to do with religion. There were men in the Old that were probably far more spiritual then most believers today; even though the Holy spirit had not been poured out yet, we see this with David and Moses. Just because you refuse to seek God in a spirit and truth does not mean there is not deeper spiritual realms.
Psalm 103:7
He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel.
Moses knew God face to face; not like the children of Israel who knew only Gods acts. The blind lead the blind in religion today; they know only the acts
In my Fathers house are many mansions; or Greek abiding place. We all have a different abiding places. If God has not called you in another abiding place/spiritual room/spiritual plane/deeper understanding then that is all you can understand. Many are shallow, superficial, and religious or where ever God has placed them.
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Son of Israel
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Another exegesis...
The mark of the beast = 666 and has to do with commerce.
Commerce is all about mammon. Or as Jesus or Paul refers to it, mammon or filthy lucre.
It is referred to in this manner because of the manner in which it is being used can warrant a dispicable referencing.
A pure exegesis here then would be...
Where else in the Bible does the 666 occur? Because that is where we should look to find out what God's answer is. We find it in...
(1Ki 10:14) Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold,
Now we know that the mark of the beast is gold based.
Now, from what we read about this 666 is that it is in the forehead.
That's where we "THINK". The word "mark" in the Greek we would pronounce...
Karagma, where we get our modern day word, "Character".
So it is the person whose "Character" is consious foremost toward mammon, or money, or filthy lucre.
That is why this strong and powerful statement is made by Paul...
(1Ti 6:10) For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
And tadaa... now we know what the "mark of the beast" is!
But, if we would rather, we can lend an ear to our modern day private interpreters of the Revelation of Jesus Christ and start imagining that it means tatoos of bar codes on our hands or computer chips implanted by the government, blah blah blah...
Son of Israel
The mark of the beast = 666 and has to do with commerce.
Commerce is all about mammon. Or as Jesus or Paul refers to it, mammon or filthy lucre.
It is referred to in this manner because of the manner in which it is being used can warrant a dispicable referencing.
A pure exegesis here then would be...
Where else in the Bible does the 666 occur? Because that is where we should look to find out what God's answer is. We find it in...
(1Ki 10:14) Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold,
Now we know that the mark of the beast is gold based.
Now, from what we read about this 666 is that it is in the forehead.
That's where we "THINK". The word "mark" in the Greek we would pronounce...
Karagma, where we get our modern day word, "Character".
So it is the person whose "Character" is consious foremost toward mammon, or money, or filthy lucre.
That is why this strong and powerful statement is made by Paul...
(1Ti 6:10) For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
And tadaa... now we know what the "mark of the beast" is!
But, if we would rather, we can lend an ear to our modern day private interpreters of the Revelation of Jesus Christ and start imagining that it means tatoos of bar codes on our hands or computer chips implanted by the government, blah blah blah...
Son of Israel
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S
Spartan Warrior
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Awesome Post; I love the deepness of God's Word. Another thought on the mark of the beast is in the number 666 which is symbolic of man for man was created on the sixth day, three is the the number for divine fullness and six is the number for man. In other words the fullness of man.
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Reve 13:18 Here the Wisdom is, the one having Mind let him calculate! the number of the beast
For number of man is, and the number of it six hundred sixty six.
http://www.greeknewtestament.com/index.htm
Textus Rec.) Revelation 13:18 wde h sofia estin o ecwn ton noun yhfisatw ton ariqmon tou qhriou ariqmoV gar anqrwpou estin kai o ariqmoV autou cxV
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I just dont think that we are supposed to understand some things. Some of it I take as literal. Some of it I take as metaphorical or descriptions by a generation that had no understanding of modern technology/things. As for the debate on whether we are, or we are not to, it states that we will be blessed simply by reading it.
*shrug*
*shrug*
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Matthew 24 said:
Matthew 24 said:
Matthew 25 said:
Mark 13 said:
Mark 13 said:
Luke 12 said:
= it's NONE of our business. The last Book of the Bible was never intended to be a prophetic "rubiks cube". The Scripture is totally against using Revelation in an attempt to squeeze out an answer "God" tells us is His business. We are to keep working and treat each day as "that day" so when The Lord does come He finds good servants that are hard at work.
Can you imagine the total disaster a convert to the Christian Faith would find themself in after being certain of the day, hour, month, year or whatever "the time" was to be and nothing happens. The damage of how Christ's name is slandered among the Gentiles and especially the damage done to people who were thinking of looking more into the Christian faith UNTIL observing a foolish spectacle such as setting a date.
The "last times" were initiated when Jesus died on the cross and was Resurrected and this is why each and every generation believed that Jesus would come in their time.
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Son of Israel
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Amen. And everyone who HAS received Christ in their time, to them, The Lord Came. That is the only true meaning of the "coming of the Lord".
You are so right to state that it isn't a universal calendar date. Nice post.
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Interesting thread....shameless bump
What exactly does the OP mean by "studying".
According to Reve 1:3, the one reading and those hearing are "blessed/happy".
Does this imply one doesn't need to 'study' it? Thanks
Revelation 1:3 Happyblessed the one reading/ana-ginwskwn <314> (5723) and the ones hearing the words of the Prophecy and keepings the in it having been written, for the time nigh.
Matt 24:15 "Whenever then ye may be seeing the abomination of the desolation the being declared thru Daniel the Prophet having stood in a place, holy (the one reading/ana-ginwskwn <314> (5723) let be understanding!/noeitw <3539> (5720) [Mark 13:14]
What exactly does the OP mean by "studying".
According to Reve 1:3, the one reading and those hearing are "blessed/happy".
Does this imply one doesn't need to 'study' it? Thanks
Revelation 1:3 Happyblessed the one reading/ana-ginwskwn <314> (5723) and the ones hearing the words of the Prophecy and keepings the in it having been written, for the time nigh.
Matt 24:15 "Whenever then ye may be seeing the abomination of the desolation the being declared thru Daniel the Prophet having stood in a place, holy (the one reading/ana-ginwskwn <314> (5723) let be understanding!/noeitw <3539> (5720) [Mark 13:14]
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jpcedotal
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Revelation should be studied AFTER the rest of the Bible has been studied and a general understanding of the rest of the Bible is accomplished on a personal level.
Revelation is not set apart from the rest of the Bible...it is the completion of everything promised through the blood Jesus Christ...so obviously first we need to figure out who Jesus is and what He means to the human race.
That begins with Gen 1:1.....
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Excellent post!Corinthians 7:23 Of value/honor ye are purchased/hgorasqhte <59>, no be ye becoming! bond-servents of men. [Hosea 13:14/Reve 5:9]
Reve 5:9 And they are singing a song, new, saying: "worthy Thou are to be receiving the scroll and to open-up the seals of it that Thou was slain/slaughtered and did purchase/hgorasaV <59> to the God of us in the blood of Thee out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation". [Hosea 13:14]
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- Mar 23, 2004
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indubitably. But only if we keep our eyes on the One behind all of it. Otherwise our own hu-man "wisdom" will kick in and we will be lost, blind, and deaf, and the One Who we will face will tell us to depart from Him, for we NEVER knew Him.
Revelations is nothing to trifle with. And neither is He.
YouTube - Awesome God (by Rich Mullins)
Revelations is nothing to trifle with. And neither is He.
YouTube - Awesome God (by Rich Mullins)
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