Atheist Universe: Not Impossible

[quatona]

I was going to rebut this point by point but I think instead I will just say I'm sorry you feel that way about us.

In any case, I think it needs to be pointed out that even if all his feelings concerning atheists were accurate and spot on this would not make a case for the existence of god(s), and even less the god of his idea.

 

[lordbt]

That´s completely wrong. Determination does not preclude change (of opinion). The change can be determined and not result of "freewill".

Determined by what?

Actually I think that the fact that we can not arbitrarily pick our thoughts makes a strong case against "freewill".

What do you mean by "arbitrarily pick our thoughts?"

 

[DeathMagus]

Determined by what?

Biology, chemistry, and physics.

 

[lordbt]

Which part of my biology, chemistry or physics led me to choose to be a fan of the Steelers and not my hometown Browns?

 

[DeathMagus]

Which part of my biology, chemistry or physics led me to choose to be a fan of the Steelers and not my hometown Browns?

The same part of you that causes you to have the personality you have. Clearly it's a physical process, at least to a large degree, given that people's behaviors, moods, decisions, and personalities can all be drastically altered by various chemical imbalances, various physical traumas, etc.

If you had a free will independent of biology, chemistry, and physics, events that alter your brain chemistry would have no effect on you as a person.

 

[quatona]

Determined by what?

The determining factors for change aren´t fundamentally different than the determining factors for non-change. Change simply doesn´t indicate "freewill". Leaves turning red in autumn doesn´t indicate they have freewill.

IOW: determined not by one single cause, but by the billions of factors/causes that result in the outcome.

What do you mean by "arbitrarily pick our thoughts?"

In my experience my thoughts come to me. I don´t plan to have a particular thought. And even if I did, the idea to have a particular thought itself was not planned.
I do not hold an opinion because I have planfully decided to hold this opinion, but because, well, I can´t help it. It´s not like I control my opinions. It´s more like my opinions control me.

 

[lordbt]

The determining factors for change aren´t fundamentally different than the determining factors for non-change. Change simply doesn´t indicate "freewill". Leaves turning red in autumn doesn´t indicate they have freewill.

No, but leaves refusing to turn red in autumn would. My decision to respond to your post is done by my own volition. I can continue to debate this topic or end it here. Logic would tell me to end it here because if you believe in determinism, then facts would not change your opinion, that opinion would be determined. So any effort on my part would be a waste of time. Normally I would continue debating a point so long as my time and interest in the subject lasted. Right now, I have both time and interest in continuing this discussion, so according to your determinist position, I would likely continue. If I make no further posts on this thread will you accept that I have done so of my own free will, or will you claim otherwise?

 

[marksman007]

Hmmmmm, atheists believe in a god they don't believe in...

It is obvious as the finger at the end of your nose. They worship....THEMSELVES!!!!!

 

[marksman007]

Whether or not free will exists (I don't believe it does) doesn't negate an important need for prisons, that being the isolation of criminals from society.

Taking your statement to its logical conclusion (am I allowed to do that?) when a crime is committed the person involved is made to do it by somone or something as in "the devil made me do it." That in itself is problematic as atheists don't believe that the devil exists. If that is not the case, then he exercised his free will to commit the crime.

 

[roflcopter101]

It is obvious as the finger at the end of your nose. They worship....THEMSELVES!!!!!

Apart from the implied accusation that atheists are egotistical, what is wrong with self-worship?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

No, but leaves refusing to turn red in autumn would.

No, that would indicate to me that leaves are deterministically sentient.

My decision to respond to your post is done by my own volition. I can continue to debate this topic or end it here. Logic would tell me to end it here because if you believe in determinism, then facts would not change your opinion, that opinion would be determined. So any effort on my part would be a waste of time.

No, that not correct. My opinion can be altered by forces outside myself, such as a compelling argument by you. That doesn't mean I have free will. Quite the opposite.

Normally I would continue debating a point so long as my time and interest in the subject lasted. Right now, I have both time and interest in continuing this discussion, so according to your determinist position, I would likely continue.

No, I wouldn't try and conclude anything about you. Our thought processes are highly complex. There could be a huge number of factors that might influence you to either quit or continue, despite what you say you "normally" do.

If I make no further posts on this thread will you accept that I have done so of my own free will, or will you claim otherwise?

Obviously, since I don't believe in free will, I'll claim you'll either quit or continue without having free will...

An Experiment:

Let's say it's breakfast and you have a choice between a number of foods you usually might eat for breakfast. Let's say you choose oatmeal. Now, if it were possible to rewind time to the millisecond before you chose the oatmeal, could you have chosen something different?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Taking your statement to its logical conclusion (am I allowed to do that?) when a crime is committed the person involved is made to do it by somone or something as in "the devil made me do it." That in itself is problematic as atheists don't believe that the devil exists. If that is not the case, then he exercised his free will to commit the crime.

That's not a "logical" conclusion at all...

Yes, if there is no free will then criminals commit crimes because outside forces influence their decisions. But there's usually not one thing or person that does this, and nothing we would call the devil.

 

[allhart]

Read Ecc. Chapter 1 Especially 1:7

 

[allhart]

Einstein said: the problem with scientists is we are poor philosophers.

 

[quatona]

No, but leaves refusing to turn red in autumn would.

Ok, so we have a example in which you admit it refutes your assertion that determination precludes change. Here you say that change would not indicate "freewill", but no-change would.

My decision to respond to your post is done by my own volition.

That may be so (depending on your definition of volition) - but the question remains: What determines what you will?

I can continue to debate this topic or end it here.

Yes, you perceive options. Doesn´t necessarily mean they are really available. But all this is not even the point of our current disagreement. The point in disagreement is your statement that without "freewill" people couldn´t change their opinion.

Logic would tell me to end it here because if you believe in determinism, then facts would not change your opinion, that opinion would be determined.

You should try convincing me with facts, for a change.
Facts are strong determining factors, and along with and due to changes in the determining factor "facts" (and the knowledge thereof) opinions often do change. In the best case opinions would be entirely determined by facts (and change with the facts) - I fail to see how additional knowledge or new facts require "freewill" to result in a change of opinion.

So any effort on my part would be a waste of time. Normally I would continue debating a point so long as my time and interest in the subject lasted. Right now, I have both time and interest in continuing this discussion, so according to your determinist position, I would likely continue.

No, that´s not "my determinist position" - it´s an implication that you falsely ascribe to determinism.

If I make no further posts on this thread will you accept that I have done so of my own free will, or will you claim otherwise?

Why? The point in dispute was your assertion that with determinism you can´t change. Now you want me to conclude from the fact that you keep doing what you are doing (responding) that your actions are not determined. How does that make sense?

My statement: Change is not evidence for "freewill". Changes can be determined. Since you have already agreed that there are examples in which changes can be determined, I think my point stands.

 

[marksman007]

Apart from the implied accusation that atheists are egotistical, what is wrong with self-worship?

I checked a buddist site and I could not find self worship amongst its tennents. It seems a very complicated relgion and relies a lot on adherants good works to achieve whatever it is you want to achieve.

I am so grateful that my faith is not dependent on me and measuring up to a standard. From day one I was saved by grace, not works and daily I reply upon God's grace to keep me in line wiht his will and purpose for my life. I don't have time for self worship because I don't need it as I am complete in Christ and accepted by God through him. What I am is irrelevant because I am dead to sin and alive to God.

BTW, it wasn't an implied accusation, it was a fact. Anyone who is a self worshipper has problems especially as it is widely known that self praise is no recommendation.

 

[marksman007]

Yes, if there is no free will then criminals commit crimes because outside forces influence their decisions. But there's usually not one thing or person that does this, and nothing we would call the devil.

Now I know why social reformers are insistient that criminals are not to blame for what they do so we musn't punish them. Doesn't work though because the devil (oops there's that naughty D word) is in the detail. Knowing without a shadow of doubt that the devil is alive and well, just as well I am not a follower of Todd not Todd.

Just as a matter of interest, if you are not Todd, who are you? Perhaps you are God as you seem to know so much.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Now I know why social reformers are insistient that criminals are not to blame for what they do so we musn't punish them. Doesn't work though because the devil (oops there's that naughty D word) is in the detail. Knowing without a shadow of doubt that the devil is alive and well, just as well I am not a follower of Todd not Todd.

If you know without a shadow of a doubt that the devil exists, you must have some pretty good evidence. Mind sharing that evidence with a non believer?

Just as a matter of interest, if you are not Todd, who are you? Perhaps you are God as you seem to know so much.

"I'm a god — I'm not the God, I don't think."
- Phil Connors -

 

[roflcopter101]

I checked a buddist site and I could not find self worship amongst its tennents. It seems a very complicated relgion and relies a lot on adherants good works to achieve whatever it is you want to achieve.

That sounds about right.

I am so grateful that my faith is not dependent on me and measuring up to a standard.

What?

From day one I was saved by grace, not works and daily I reply upon God's grace to keep me in line wiht his will and purpose for my life.

Then what motivates you to follow God's word if it decides to send you to hell or to heaven before you are even born? You could just live a life of excess and sin and nothing would matter in the long run.

I don't have time for self worship because I don't need it as I am complete in Christ and accepted by God through him.

It's not really THAT time consuming, is it?

What I am is irrelevant because I am dead to sin and alive to God.

And you have not sinned in the last year? Last decade? Last 50 years?

BTW, it wasn't an implied accusation, it was a fact. Anyone who is a self worshipper has problems especially as it is widely known that self praise is no recommendation.

Again, that assumes that atheists worship themselves, which I highly doubt is applicable for the vast majority of atheists.
Also, self-praise is necessary for being a functioning member of society: it is also known as self-confidence. In a way, you are exhibiting self-worship, as you are not immediately saying, "Oh, I'm sorry roflcopter101, I'm totally wrong and you're right sorry sorry sorry". Additionally, it has been shown that girls like guys with massive egos. If your assertion was true that all atheists are egotistical self-worshippers, atheists would get more girls than Christians and religious people, eventually outreproducing religious people in the long run and probably leading to a world of atheists. Which is totally likely.

 

[allhart]

That sounds about right.



What?



Then what motivates you to follow God's word if it decides to send you to hell or to heaven before you are even born? You could just live a life of excess and sin and nothing would matter in the long run.



It's not really THAT time consuming, is it?



And you have not sinned in the last year? Last decade? Last 50 years?



Again, that assumes that atheists worship themselves, which I highly doubt is applicable for the vast majority of atheists.
Also, self-praise is necessary for being a functioning member of society: it is also known as self-confidence. In a way, you are exhibiting self-worship, as you are not immediately saying, "Oh, I'm sorry roflcopter101, I'm totally wrong and you're right sorry sorry sorry". Additionally, it has been shown that girls like guys with massive egos. If your assertion was true that all atheists are egotistical self-worshippers, atheists would get more girls than Christians and religious people, eventually outreproducing religious people in the long run and probably leading to a world of atheists. Which is totally likely.

Out producing and ya know you are living from the blessings of our forefathers of the last 233 years, but those days are running out. Your freedom will be gone on the other side of the token. Ya'll think your smarter than Benjamin Franklin and alike . When actual reality you are digressing. You don't know to hold on to freedom. For you have had it your entire life, so out of discourse you take freedom to keep peace. While you give yours away in return. Sense the beginning 233 years we have given up our freedoms and people sit and contemplate on how to fix more social issues in and around morality(While people walk away from morality as a whole), but not knowing origin then how can you know your meaning and in return then know your morality?
So people think they are neanderthal girl catchers lol. Well what makes people think that evil warriors are the best life style life can offer. Whats wrong with being a WARRIOR OF GOD!

If you want to be real about social issues you better thank your lucky stars your in America and you need to preserve freedom to worship. For if you don't preserve Christians right to worship then you will have Sharia law! That's the other option. For think about it. Even from your secular point of you. You make it where the people aren't free on all or some level in our human society. Like over populating the Christians, so you can take away our freedom, because you don't like descent or is it you hate us and our freedom to worship?