Is not honoring the sabbath a sin?

[Timothew]

Actually it does. So am I to take it that you don't keep the sabbath either tall?




Ok, well given your understanding of Paul's writings, if your wife decides to run off with another man you should help her pack her bags and wish her the best. Or if your someone breaks into your house and steals your TV, don't bother calling the police.

If you find your children have decided to follow after another god, don't rebuke them.

Again, either the law is all gone, or it's not. The fact there was a change holds true, but the law itself is not gone.

For you to have gone so deep into Hebrews in the other thread tall, I'm surprised you'd argue against this. Let me ask you something.

We agree that within the MHP there is the ark of the covenant. Why is the mercy seat on top of the ark? If the earthly was patterned after the heavenly, what do you think is inside of the ark?

Dude! I thought we had agreed that I do keep the Sabbath Rest by virtue of Being in Christ.

So, by your understanding, If your wife decides to run off with another man, you should Stone Her?

If someone breaks into your house and steals your TV, you should Stone Him?

If your children follow after another God, you should Stone Them?

Who is your prophet, Bob Dylan? "Everybody must get stoned"

Didn't Jesus say somewhere that if someone takes your coat, you should also give them your shirt? Where is that Law?

 

[Stryder06]

Dude! I thought we had agreed that I do keep the Sabbath Rest by virtue of Being in Christ.

You can't keep the sabbath holy if you're doing your own thing on that day. That goes for anyone.

So, by your understanding, If your wife decides to run off with another man, you should Stone Her?


If someone breaks into your house and steals your TV, you should Stone Him?

If your children follow after another God, you should Stone Them?

Who is your prophet, Bob Dylan? "Everybody must get stoned"

Nope. Jesus didn't stone anyone, so I'm not stoning anyone.

Didn't Jesus say somewhere that if someone takes your coat, you should also give them your shirt? Where is that Law?

Judgment belongs to God. If you hadn't noticed, in the OT, stoning kinda faded away after the people asked to have a human king. Now Christ has simply asked us to Love God and our neighbor as ourselves. Judgment has been committed to Him to execute at the appointed time.

 

[Hentenza]

2 Cor. 3

4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

The ministry of death (the law) has passed away and the ministry of the Spirit is much more glorious. The ministry of death was written and engraved in stone (10 commandment tablets) and those were glorious but they have passed away so that we could receive the ministry of the Spirit. Jesus atonement on the cross is the efficient cause. Jesus is God and He gave us His commandments which are NOT in stone but in spirit.

The 4th commandment engraved in stone is NOT one of Jesus (God) commandments. ALL other 9 commandments including not to murder, not to steal, etc. were given to use BY Jesus for the ministry of the Spirit (new covenant). It is NOT a sin, per the ministry of the Spirit, to not keep the ministry of death (law).

 

[squint]

Yeah, exactly. That God. Adam and Eve when they were perfect and without sin were still told "The day you eat of it you shall surely die."

The fact that you are led to blame Adam, Gods son is also very obvious.

Don't you KNOW that where the WORD was sown, SATAN enters? Please. Just because you can't SEE that happening doesn't mean it DIDN'T when Jesus told us CLEARLY that DOES happen.

When did I ever try to say that sin was lawful for me?

Your own lawlessness in your flesh will never be lawful NO MATTER how much 'you pretend' it so under the LAW. Sorry.

The Law was meant to expose that working to be IN mankind and to CONDEMN it. That is exactly what the LAW 'is' supposed to do.

You however have been led by that SAME WORKING into the charade that your EVIL PRESENT, your LAWLESSNESS, your INDWELLING SIN is somehow going to MAGICALLY disappear and suddenly become LAWFUL.

All I can say is....it ain't happenin'.

I see it like this, God says that He will finish the work that He started in us. Grace is merited to me on Christ's behalf.

Oh, I don't doubt you will carry lawlessness/evil present to permanent judgment in your body/mind whatsoever, even if you don't see 'it' that way. And you will experience MERCY and GRACE from God for that effort, even if you don't know the difference between yourself and THAT WORKING.

Never said I could. I can however plead and ask God for His help to overcome sin.

Yeah, right. Like God is going to make YOUR EVIL PRESENT into good? Fat chance. You may as well ask God to turn the DEVIL into JESUS.

To stop thoughts from progressing that are inappropriate.

You can 'claim' your sinless mind all the day long. I will again merely LAUGH that evil present has led you to the conclusion that it is DIFFERENT/GOOD by your will. HA!

I can ask for forgiveness when I stumble have faith that I've been forgiven, and ask He who is able to keep me from falling to do just that.

Keeping you and dealing with EVIL PRESENT are two entirely different matters Stryder. Your evil present is not getting off the hook no matter HOW MANY angles it plays. Sorry to inform it of that TRUTH.

I don't condemn "mankind" I don't condemn anyone for that matter.

Oh please. You say GODS SAYS. That is in fact only how you are LED to see GOD SAYS. You merely parrot what YOU think YOU see. There are other reasonable logical alternatives to ONLY WHAT YOU SEE (supposedly in behalf of God.)

But you haven't gotten that by now so I don't see that changing.

You expect anyone to buy the 'I don't condemn anyone' story while you continue to spout condemnation in Gods behalf? Can you spell DOUBLETALK?

And I don't excuse myself.

Of course you EXCUSE yourself. You say MY EVIL PRESENT is 'lawful' because IT goes to CHURCH on Saturday.

lol w/that angle. Your evil present will be condemned sitting right there in the Pew.

I've been down this road before. Keeping the sabbath isn't a guarantee into heaven.

It's a VAIN ATTEMPT to make EVIL PRESENT into COMPLIANT GOOD.

It's an entire lifestyle of obedience and willingness to allow God to do what He said He would do; it's about faith in He who can makes us more than conquers.

Faith works through LOVE. One thing EVIL PRESENT cannot do, which you openly show, is to love our neighbors as ourselves, thusly fulfilling ALL the LAW in the Spiritual Manner Gods children are MEANT to do...regardless of their evil present.

enjoy!

squint

 

[Stryder06]

The ministry of death (the law) has passed away and the ministry of the Spirit is much more glorious. The ministry of death was written and engraved in stone (10 commandment tablets) and those were glorious but they have passed away so that we could receive the ministry of the Spirit. Jesus atonement on the cross is the efficient cause. Jesus is God and He gave us His commandments which are NOT in stone but in spirit.

The 4th commandment engraved in stone is NOT one of Jesus (God) commandments. ALL other 9 commandments including not to murder, not to steal, etc. were given to use BY Jesus for the ministry of the Spirit (new covenant). It is NOT a sin, per the ministry of the Spirit, to not keep the ministry of death (law).

Jesus is the Eternal God. Those commandments are His law because He gave them to us.

Jesus didn't have to tell the Jews to keep the sabbath, instead showed them how to keep it. Tell me, how can the ministry of the Spirit work without the ten commandments? How can you keep the spirit of the law without the letter being there?

If you don't have to keep the sabbath, you don't have to keep anything else. Without the law there is no sin, no need to repent of anything, and no need of grace which is so often coveted.

By saying there is no law you undermine the sacrifice of Christ. He died because the law could not be changed.

 

[Hentenza]

Jesus is the Eternal God. Those commandments are His law because He gave them to us.

Jesus didn't have to tell the Jews to keep the sabbath, instead showed them how to keep it. Tell me, how can the ministry of the Spirit work without the ten commandments? How can you keep the spirit of the law without the letter being there?

If you don't have to keep the sabbath, you don't have to keep anything else. Without the law there is no sin, no need to repent of anything, and no need of grace which is so often coveted.

By saying there is no law you undermine the sacrifice of Christ. He died because the law could not be changed.

Stryder,

You are talking from opinion not from scripture. I posted scripture that you did not address. Please post scripture with commentary to address your opinion.

 

[JAL]

Jesus is the Eternal God. Those commandments are His law because He gave them to us.

Jesus didn't have to tell the Jews to keep the sabbath, instead showed them how to keep it. Tell me, how can the ministry of the Spirit work without the ten commandments? How can you keep the spirit of the law without the letter being there?

If you don't have to keep the sabbath, you don't have to keep anything else. Without the law there is no sin, no need to repent of anything, and no need of grace which is so often coveted.

By saying there is no law you undermine the sacrifice of Christ. He died because the law could not be changed.

I think you're misunderstanding God's "law". God's will is love. Period. He wants a world filled with loving fellowship among God and men. Now, love does NO harm to one's neighbor. The problem is that life is too complicated for men to determine, on their own, courses of behavior perfectly harmless to fellow man. Consequently, regarding the specifics of how to walk in love, from moment to moment we need need to hear God's voice. "My sheep know my voice." (John 10:27). Especially because the specifics can change at any moment given the complexities of the world.

The law was a set of specifics VOICED to Israel (it wasn't voiced to us). In Ex 20, for example, the divine voice spoke the ten commandments to the entire nation of Israel at a defeaning voice. (Contrary to popular belief, the law did not originate on stone tablets - read it for yourself).


You said that God's law cannot change. Depends what you mean. The ESSENCE of the law is unchanging. God's law(s) always mean the following:
(1) Love your neighbor as yourself.
(2) Love the Lord with all your heart.

However, the SPECIFICS of the law (such as animal sactifices) can change at any moment. That's why we need to get God's will from His voice, not from the Bible.


What does this mean? I can't get into a full defense of my views here, but I'll summarize.

When God speaks, He must impart a feeling of certainty to our hearts (the Holy Spirit convicts our hearts) that the message is truly from Him. This is how we got saved. If feelings of certainty aren't authoritative, then we shouldn't have gotten saved. In short, a feeling of certainty obligates my conscience. Whatever I feel most certain about I must do (even if that means admitting, at times, that I feel too uncertain to take any radical actions). The more we seek God, the more loud and clear He speaks to us, and hence the more certainty we feel in our conscience.

My conscience has never felt the slightest degree of certainty that Gentiles need to be observing the Sabbath. If yours does, you are obligated, but that's because, in my opinion, your conscience is damaged by bad teaching, and I am hoping with this essay to set it straight. Because I really believe that a properly functioning conscience won't feel any obligation to the Jewish Sabbath.

Of course, my conscience could be the one that's malfunctioning. I realize that. But one thing is clear - it does not press me in the slightest to observe the Sabbath, and I'm pretty confident that non-Sabbatarians at large would concur. for me to honor the Jewish Sabbath would actually go AGAINST my conscience which, in short, would be sin.

 

[Stryder06]

Stryder,

You are talking from opinion not from scripture. I posted scripture that you did not address. Please post scripture with commentary to address your opinion.

I'm not speaking from opinion. I was directly addressing the scriptures that you posted. Quoting scripture all willy-nilly won't accomplish anything if you have an incorrect understanding about it. But if you insist:

8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.




Now, if you can provide one scripture that says we can forget the above, then i'll end my case.

 

[Stryder06]

The law was a set of specifics VOICED to Israel (it wasn't voiced to us). In Ex 20, for example, the divine voice spoke the ten commandments to the entire nation of Israel at a defeaning voice. (Contrary to popular belief, the law did not originate on stone tablets - read it for yourself).

You know that the gentiles were never given the promises made to Abraham and his seed right.

You said that God's law cannot change. Depends what you mean. The ESSENCE of the law is unchanging. God's law(s) always mean the following:
(1) Love your neighbor as yourself.
(2) Love the Lord with all your heart.

When I say law more so than not I'm talking about the ten commandments. And you know, without the Lord spelling out for us how to lover our neighbors and Him, we wouldn't know how to. If you doubt that, look at the what passes for "love" in the world.

However, the SPECIFICS of the law (such as animal sactifices) can change at any moment. That's why we need to get God's will from His voice, not from the Bible.

This is incorrect. The specifics could not be changed at any moment. It was at a precise moment that animal sacrifices ceased, and that was with the death of Christ.

My conscience has never felt the slightest degree of certainty that Gentiles need to be observing the Sabbath. If yours does, you are obligated, but that's because, in my opinion, your conscience is damaged by bad teaching, and I am hoping with this essay to set it straight.

You know, Eve had a rather clear conscience about eating the fruit. Now of course by clear i mean muddy, but I trust you get what I'm saying.

Because I really believe that a properly functioning conscience won't feel any obligation to the Jewish Sabbath.

It's been my opinion that a properly functioning conscience wouldn't accept anyone but God abrogating His law.

Of course, my conscience could be the one that's malfunctioning. I realize that. But one thing is clear - it does not press me in the slightest to observe the Sabbath, and I'm pretty confident that non-Sabbatarians at large would concur. for me to honor the Jewish Sabbath would actually go AGAINST my conscience which, in short, would be sin.

Well I'd fully agree with you if there was such a thing as a "Jewish" sabbath. However, considering that the sabbath was made for man, and that it began in Eden before there was a "jew" or "gentile", I just can't follow that logic.

 

[Hentenza]

I'm not speaking from opinion. I was directly addressing the scriptures that you posted. Quoting scripture all willy-nilly won't accomplish anything if you have an incorrect understanding about it. But if you insist:

8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.




Now, if you can provide one scripture that says we can forget the above, then i'll end my case.

I did. Here it is again.

2 Cor 3:3
3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

My challenge to you is to produce scripture that requires Christians under the ministry of the Spirit to keep the Sabbath or be in sin.

 

[Stryder06]

I did. Here it is again.

2 Cor 3:3
3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

My challenge to you is to produce scripture that requires Christians under the ministry of the Spirit to keep the Sabbath or be in sin.

I'm sorry but the burden of proof is still with you. If you haven't noticed that verse doesn't say "Forget the sabbath day and keep the sunday."

I'm just not seeing it.

I do see a plenitude of scripture telling me that it is a good thing to keep the commandments of God.

How about this: John 10:16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Now how can we have one flock if there is division within? How can there be one set of rules for half of the flock, and another set of rules for the other half?

So again, please provide me with scripture that says to forget the sabbath. I'll even settle for one that shows that God declared Sunday the new holy day.

 

[Hentenza]

I'm sorry but the burden of proof is still with you. If you haven't noticed that verse doesn't say "Forget the sabbath day and keep the sunday."

I'm just not seeing it.

I do see a plenitude of scripture telling me that it is a good thing to keep the commandments of God.

How about this: John 10:16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Now how can we have one flock if there is division within? How can there be one set of rules for half of the flock, and another set of rules for the other half?

So again, please provide me with scripture that says to forget the sabbath. I'll even settle for one that shows that God declared Sunday the new holy day.

Actually the burden of proof is on you. You claimed in post #2 of this thread that not keeping the Sabbath is a sin. Your post, your burden of proof.

I have showed you from 2 Cor. 3 where Paul himself, an ardent prior Jewish leader and knowledgeable of the law, calls the law engraved in stone the ministry of death. Tell me, when you buy a product that requires assembly and the first instruction tells you to use nut A with bolt B, doesn't that imply not to use nut C with bolt B? Again, there is absolutely no biblical proof that the ministry of death is still binding. On the contrary, Paul is clear that we are under the ministry of the Spirit because the ministry of death has passed away.

Here is the scripture again:

7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

BTW- John 10:6 does not even hint of the Sabbath.

Again, I challenge you to post biblical scripture that requires Christians under the ministry of the Spirit to observe the Sabbath or they are in sin.

 

[Stryder06]

Actually the burden of proof is on you. You claimed in post #2 of this thread that not keeping the Sabbath is a sin. Your post, your burden of proof.

I guess this goes both ways as I've yet to see someone show scripture that proves that something that used to be a sin, is no longer a sin.

I have showed you from 2 Cor. 3 where Paul himself, an ardent prior Jewish leader and knowledgeable of the law, calls the law engraved in stone the ministry of death. Tell me, when you buy a product that requires assembly and the first instruction tells you to use nut A with bolt B, doesn't that imply not to use nut C with bolt B? Again, there is absolutely no biblical proof that the ministry of death is still binding. On the contrary, Paul is clear that we are under the ministry of the Spirit because the ministry of death has passed away.

I understand that fully. But the question is why? The only reason we are no longer under the ministry of death is because of Christ. You fail to see that the commandments only bring death because of disobedience. With Christ we no longer fear the penalty of sin as He has paid it for us, this however does not mean that we are able to do as we will.

Here is the scripture again:

7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

The ministry of the Spirit couldn't take place without the law being in place. You get rid of the law and you get rid of the need for everything else that has provided provision for us. Sin is the transgression of the law. Without the law there is no sin.

BTW- John 10:16 does not even hint of the Sabbath.

I never said that John 10:16 had anything to do with the sabbath. I was trying to point you in the direction of unity. How can we be unified if we have different rules regulating different groups of people?

Again, I challenge you to post biblical scripture that requires Christians under the ministry of the Spirit to observe the Sabbath or they are in sin.

Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

James 1:25
23For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James 2:10-13 (King James Version) 10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.



So what do we have here. David calls the law of God perfect, James then calls it the perfect law of liberty. Furthermore He says that whoever looks into the law and straightens up will be blessed. Lastly he says (speaking of the ten commandments) that whoever keeps the whole law yet stumbles in one point is guilty of breaking them all.



This is to stress the point that no matter what law you think you're keeping right, if you've broken a single one, you've broken the entire thing and are subject to the penalty associated with it.



This message isn't meant to scare, but to wake people up so that they can see how much they need Christ. Only by His grace are we forgiven for the sins against the law which we have committed.

 

[squint]

SDA postions compared to New Testament statements about 'LAW' and 'PERSONAL OBEDIENCE' simply do not ADD UP, and here's WHY:

Paul advised that the ENTIRE LAW is fulfilled in those who LOVE THEIR NEIGHBORS AS THEMSELVES:

Does this mean those laws are TOSSED OUT? Never. They still stand TO BE FULFILLED in that way in EACH PERSON. On this basis no one should be tossing away so quickly what is FULFILLED in the prescribed manner. There are many statements from Paul attesting to the fact that the LAW stands and 'how' it is fufilled. So in this the SDA is ONLY correct in that the LAW STANDS.

Where the wheels come off their understanding is 'how' those LAWS are fulfilled:

Romans 13:

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

The TEN COMMANDMENTS in the above statement HAVE CLEARLY NOT been ELIMINATED...the ONLY thing that has 'changed' is now, rather than physical obedience to rituals and incantations (ANY COMMANDMENT) there remains only the PATH OF FULFILLMENT...clearly stated as loving our neighbors...doing no ILL to them.

We know from Paul from the chapter we ALL LOVE so dearly, 1 Corinthians 13, what LOVE IS and DOES...

One of the things LOVE DOES is to DO NO ILL.

The SDA'er however does not think it ANY ILL WHATSOEVER to sentence another non-Sat. sabbath worshipper to ETERNAL DEATH....

To them LOVE is in their view SENTENCING their fellow man to ETERNAL DEATH...nah...NO ILL there....sure.

Love also keeps NO RECORD OF WRONGS....

But the SDAer assuredly KEEPS SUCH RECORDS in order to COUNT SINS against those who 'do not keep' as THEY SAY keeping the LAW is....

So we have, so far 3 easy to see MAJOR FLAWS with the SDA doctrinal positions...

One, they have turned LOVING OUR NEIGHBORS into 'Saturday Sabbath keeping.' What in the world that has to do with loving our neighbors is really not made clear other than they think themselves OBEDIENT and claim their neighbors who DO NOT are disobedient. Obviously a SELF SERVING measure then of LAW observance 'FOR THEM' and condemnation to OTHERS...certainly FAR from any demonstration of LOVE to those neighbors.

Secondly, the KEEP RECORDS OF WRONGS. Love does not DO THIS. Where there is NO RECORD of WRONGS...there is NO COUNT of SINS.

Thirdly, the DO ILL portion. Apparently in SDA land sentencing some OTHER person to ETERNAL DEATH is NO ILL? It would seem to most sane observers that LOVE = ETERNAL DEATH is quite an idiotic form of the conveyance of LOVE to neighbors.

The final coup de grace for their ILL CONCEIVED RECORD COUNTING against their neighbors is that LOVE FAILS. Apparently GOD in ALL HIS LOVE will utterly FAIL to do ONE BIT OF GOOD for those who cannot DANCE THE LAW JIG as those legalists play their fiddles. Nope, LOVE in their views FAILS ENTIRELY to be able to do ONE SINGLE THING for the LAW BREAKERS (as they solely have determined.)

There are other observations...LOVE DOES NOT VAUNT itself against ANOTHER...yet they also VAUNT the fact that they are SOOOO lawful by setting in that PEW on Saturday....but YOU of course ARE NOT....

Love does not seek its' self....yet in SDA land they continually SEEK to grab any who will listen to DAMN their neighbors on the basis they prescribe.

Legalists in these matters are all rather blandly the same and blandly predictible.

Excuse their own sins on the basis of performances...damn others for their lack of same...damn others to eternal death even.

but CERTAINLY loving neighbors is not even in their list...other than to EQUATE LOVE to a mere WARNING resulting in conveying SIN, CONDEMNATION and ETERNAL DEATH to YOU.

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

YES, fulfilling the WHOLE LAW is exactly THAT...

There is NO LAW that can 'love our neighbors as ourselves.'

That is JESUS in us, doing THAT...The Spirit of FULFILLMENT.

God IS LOVE...proven in those who do same.

s

 

[freeport]

Weren't the Pharisees admonished for this type of legalism?

Luke 13:14-16 NASB
​

But the synagogue official, indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, began saying to the crowd in response, "There are six days in which work should be done; so come during them and get healed, and not on the Sabbath day."

But the Lord answered him and said, "You hypocrites, does not each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the stall and lead him away to water him?

"And this woman, a daughter of Abraham as she is, whom Satan has bound for eighteen long years, should she not have been released from this bond on the Sabbath day?"
​

Right, we are children of the Lord of the Sabbath and do good through the Holy Spirit.

Those not born of God can do no good, for they are not of God.

And God alone is good.

Real basic Christian theology, those trying to stir doubt on the matter show they do not believe they can do good.

But they claim otherwise most of the time: it is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit to claim one is good when one is not born of God.

 

[Hentenza]

I guess this goes both ways as I've yet to see someone show scripture that proves that something that used to be a sin, is no longer a sin.

You said it yourself. Because of Christ. Christ is our Sabbath rest. In addition, the law was given to Israel not to the gentiles.

I understand that fully. But the question is why? The only reason we are no longer under the ministry of death is because of Christ. You fail to see that the commandments only bring death because of disobedience. With Christ we no longer fear the penalty of sin as He has paid it for us, this however does not mean that we are able to do as we will.

The only thing that I will expand on this is that the commandments are those of Christ given to the gentiles not the ten commandments engraved in stone given to Israel. Did you know that the Kingdom of God was initially ONLY preached to the Jews? Do you know what changed? Do you know why it changed?

The ministry of the Spirit couldn't take place without the law being in place. You get rid of the law and you get rid of the need for everything else that has provided provision for us. Sin is the transgression of the law. Without the law there is no sin.

Sure, but as you correctly said above, we are no longer under the penalty of sin because of the grace of God. Saving faith is required not the keeping of the ministry of death.

I never said that John 10:16 had anything to do with the sabbath. I was trying to point you in the direction of unity. How can we be unified if we have different rules regulating different groups of people?

Unity between what? Are you talking about theological unity?

Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Yes it is.

James 1:25
23For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

The law of liberty is not the Jewish law but the law of the ministry of the Spirit. The new covenant law not the old covenant law. (See 2 Cor 3:17).

James 2:10-13 (King James Version) 10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Why did you jump verse 12? Lets put it in context:

5 Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts? 7 Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called?
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.”Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Again, the law of liberty is the new covenant not the old covenant. Verse 8 is quoting Jesus commandment not the ten commandments.

So what do we have here. David calls the law of God perfect, James then calls it the perfect law of liberty. Furthermore He says that whoever looks into the law and straightens up will be blessed. Lastly he says (speaking of the ten commandments) that whoever keeps the whole law yet stumbles in one point is guilty of breaking them all.

See above.

This is to stress the point that no matter what law you think you're keeping right, if you've broken a single one, you've broken the entire thing and are subject to the penalty associated with it.

Using James perspective, this goes onto another discussion regarding initial justification versus progressive sanctification. For the purposes of this discussion, since we have agreed that we are not under the penalty of sin, then it refers to post salvific penalty, ie. rewards.

This message isn't meant to scare, but to wake people up so that they can see how much they need Christ. Only by His grace are we forgiven for the sins against the law which we have committed.

We sin against God not against the law.

 

[Stryder06]

You said it yourself. Because of Christ. Christ is our Sabbath rest. In addition, the law was given to Israel not to the gentiles.

Sorry, I'd need to see the verse that says "And thus Christ has replaced the seventh day sabbath."

You keep missing the point that the day itself is holy. It was made holy at creation and has remained that way.

And please with the whole the law was given to the gentiles thing. The promises for Abraham's seed wasn't given to the gentiles but we know it belongs to us through faith.

The only thing that I will expand on this is that the commandments are those of Christ given to the gentiles not the ten commandments engraved in stone given to Israel. Did you know that the Kingdom of God was initially ONLY preached to the Jews? Do you know what changed? Do you know why it changed?

The same commandments you say He gave to the gentiles He also gave to the Israelites back while they were in the wilderness. And as for your questions, Yes, yes and yes, but I'm sure we'll disagree. Feel free to start another thread on that so we can avoid derailing this one.

Sure, but as you correctly said above, we are no longer under the penalty of sin because of the grace of God. Saving faith is required not the keeping of the ministry of death.

Saving faith leads you to keep the law. That's why I don't see why we have such a problem here. You know what not to do because God has given us instructions. You're obedient because you love Him, just like others are disobedient because they don't.

Unity between what? Are you talking about theological unity?

The bible says how can two walk together unless they be agreed. It also says what fellowship does light have with darkness, and that a kingdom that is divided against itself cannot stand.

Take that for what it's worth.

The law of liberty is not the Jewish law but the law of the ministry of the Spirit. The new covenant law not the old covenant law. (See 2 Cor 3:17).

The new covenant law is the old covenant law. Just like the ten commandments were part of the OC, they are part of the NC. Can you furnish scripture that shows that God established a set of laws for the Jews and a set of laws for the gentiles?

Why did you jump verse 12? Lets put it in context:

5 Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts? 7 Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called?
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.”Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Again, the law of liberty is the new covenant not the old covenant. Verse 8 is quoting Jesus commandment not the ten commandments.

You're misunderstanding the text. James is clearly talking about the ten commandments as he uses two of those very commandments to illustrate his point. Do you not believe that Jesus was the very One in the OT that gave the Israelites their law? The law is His. The commandment to love your neighbor was given in Deuteronomy first.

We sin against God not against the law.

The law is God's therefore it's one in the same, you can't sin against God if you haven't broken the law, and you can't break a law that doesn't exist anymore.

How does it work that one can be lawless before they come to God and then remain lawless once they come to Him? I mean, the bible is very clear that lawlessness is sin, and yet people continue to herald the message that there is no law. Just a little confused

 

[CalmRon]

SDA postions compared to New Testament statements about 'LAW' and 'PERSONAL OBEDIENCE' simply do not ADD UP, and here's WHY:

Paul advised that the ENTIRE LAW is fulfilled in those who LOVE THEIR NEIGHBORS AS THEMSELVES:

Does this mean those laws are TOSSED OUT? Never. They still stand TO BE FULFILLED in that way in EACH PERSON. On this basis no one should be tossing away so quickly what is FULFILLED in the prescribed manner. There are many statements from Paul attesting to the fact that the LAW stands and 'how' it is fufilled. So in this the SDA is ONLY correct in that the LAW STANDS.

Where the wheels come off their understanding is 'how' those LAWS are fulfilled:

Romans 13:

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

The TEN COMMANDMENTS in the above statement HAVE CLEARLY NOT been ELIMINATED...the ONLY thing that has 'changed' is now, rather than physical obedience to rituals and incantations (ANY COMMANDMENT) there remains only the PATH OF FULFILLMENT...clearly stated as loving our neighbors...doing no ILL to them.

We know from Paul from the chapter we ALL LOVE so dearly, 1 Corinthians 13, what LOVE IS and DOES...

One of the things LOVE DOES is to DO NO ILL.

The SDA'er however does not think it ANY ILL WHATSOEVER to sentence another non-Sat. sabbath worshipper to ETERNAL DEATH....

To them LOVE is in their view SENTENCING their fellow man to ETERNAL DEATH...nah...NO ILL there....sure.

Love also keeps NO RECORD OF WRONGS....

But the SDAer assuredly KEEPS SUCH RECORDS in order to COUNT SINS against those who 'do not keep' as THEY SAY keeping the LAW is....

So we have, so far 3 easy to see MAJOR FLAWS with the SDA doctrinal positions...

One, they have turned LOVING OUR NEIGHBORS into 'Saturday Sabbath keeping.' What in the world that has to do with loving our neighbors is really not made clear other than they think themselves OBEDIENT and claim their neighbors who DO NOT are disobedient. Obviously a SELF SERVING measure then of LAW observance 'FOR THEM' and condemnation to OTHERS...certainly FAR from any demonstration of LOVE to those neighbors.

Secondly, the KEEP RECORDS OF WRONGS. Love does not DO THIS. Where there is NO RECORD of WRONGS...there is NO COUNT of SINS.

Thirdly, the DO ILL portion. Apparently in SDA land sentencing some OTHER person to ETERNAL DEATH is NO ILL? It would seem to most sane observers that LOVE = ETERNAL DEATH is quite an idiotic form of the conveyance of LOVE to neighbors.

The final coup de grace for their ILL CONCEIVED RECORD COUNTING against their neighbors is that LOVE FAILS. Apparently GOD in ALL HIS LOVE will utterly FAIL to do ONE BIT OF GOOD for those who cannot DANCE THE LAW JIG as those legalists play their fiddles. Nope, LOVE in their views FAILS ENTIRELY to be able to do ONE SINGLE THING for the LAW BREAKERS (as they solely have determined.)

There are other observations...LOVE DOES NOT VAUNT itself against ANOTHER...yet they also VAUNT the fact that they are SOOOO lawful by setting in that PEW on Saturday....but YOU of course ARE NOT....

Love does not seek its' self....yet in SDA land they continually SEEK to grab any who will listen to DAMN their neighbors on the basis they prescribe.

Legalists in these matters are all rather blandly the same and blandly predictible.

Excuse their own sins on the basis of performances...damn others for their lack of same...damn others to eternal death even.

but CERTAINLY loving neighbors is not even in their list...other than to EQUATE LOVE to a mere WARNING resulting in conveying SIN, CONDEMNATION and ETERNAL DEATH to YOU.

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

YES, fulfilling the WHOLE LAW is exactly THAT...

There is NO LAW that can 'love our neighbors as ourselves.'

That is JESUS in us, doing THAT...The Spirit of FULFILLMENT.

God IS LOVE...proven in those who do same.

s

Squint I agree with what you say that love is the fullfillment of the law, but we must realize that the love your neighbor and love God are two general principles whichs become more deeply defined in regards to te ten commandments. if we love our neighbor we not murder, steal from or bear false witness against him and in the same manner if we love god we will do as he says here- that we have no other gods before him, that we revere his name , that we make not idols to him or other things and we keep the day he asks us to keep holy.

 

[squint]

Squint I agree with what you say that love is the fullfillment of the law, but we must realize that the love your neighbor and love God are two general principles whichs become more deeply defined in regards to te ten commandments.

Every supposed 'law keeper' should tell you that sitting in a pew on SATURDAY is completely MEANINGLESS apart from that which is IN THE HEART. Physical attendance does not matter ONE WHIT by any comparison. Since there is no way to 'accurately gauge' then what that really means to be 'in' compliance, the only other LOGICAL or reasonable place to 'look' is what ARE the 'real results of their attendance?

If you want to quick cut to the chase, please review what SDAers ACTUALLY DO from their own statements regarding these matters.

Here is what YOU WILL FIND:

The conveyance of SIN to their neighbors for NON-attendance.

The conveyance of CONDEMNATION to their neighbors for that SIN.

The conveyance of potential ETERNAL DEATH to their neighbors for that SIN.

and of course the COMPLETE exoneration of themselves, even if they were sitting in the pew thinking of not wanting to be there, all the day long.

if we love our neighbor we not murder, steal from or bear false witness against him and in the same manner if we love god we will do as he says here-

There are many things that love does not do, but those things are NOT 'performances' under the LAW of 'do not,' but under the RULE of the SPIRIT which IS Love. Love is TRANCENDANT above EVERY LAW and is the FULFILLMENT of EVERY LAW.

SDA methodology can easily be seen from their own statements to convey SIN COUNTING, CONDEMNATION AND POTENTIAL OF ETERNAL DEATH.

IF you say ALL THOSE THINGS ARE LOVE, you are sadly mistaken.

that we have no other gods before him, that we revere his name , that we make not idols to him or other things and we keep the day he asks us to keep holy.

No other gods? Please... NO one is absolute 100% correct about ANY of these 'legal' matters because THEY ARE HEART matters that NO MAN is fit to judge upon ANOTHER whatsoever.

A non SATURDAY PEW SITTER who loves their neighbors is FULFILLING THE LAW in every aspect including SABBATH WORSHIP. And the same ones sitting in the PEWS on Saturday CONDEMNING THAT PERSON "IN THE NAME OF GOD as 'they' see it" is going to have THEIR OWN DAMNATION to their neighbors reigned down upon them.


People who 'think' they practice LAW and use it to bring the CONDEMNATION of potential ETERNAL DEATH to their neighbors are IN FACT murderers IN THEIR HEARTS.

To bow to some myriad of constructs about 'physical performance requirements' about the LAW and to call THAT love to their neighbors is ridiculous idolatry, the SUBSTANCE of which is OPENLY REVEALED out of their own mouths to in reality be DEATH IN THEM to their neighbors reigning supreme.

You think one cannot COMMIT MURDER in their heart?

1 John 3:15
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer

One cannot HATE their neighbor or their brother ANY MORE than to sentence them to the potential of ETERNAL DEATH.

You think one who claims to LOVE GOD by "following the ten commandments" cannot be a LIAR in their heart?

1 John 4:20
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar

Legal on the OUTSIDE by physical performance measures means NOTHING. Out of their OWN MOUTHS they condemn their neighbors PROVING the lawlessness of DEATH to neighbors REIGNS in their hearts.

enjoy!

squint

 

[JAL]

You know that the gentiles were never given the promises made to Abraham and his seed right.

Huh?
Gal 3:29 ???

This is incorrect. The specifics could not be changed at any moment. It was at a precise moment that animal sacrifices ceased, and that was with the death of Christ.

Yes, by "any moment" I mean "at the precise moment that God's voice so decrees."

Let's keep in mind that ethics is situational (the specifics vary from person to person, age to age, and nation to nation). For example, suppose my family has an allergy to peanut butter. It would be immoral (and thus a violation of God's law of love) for me to feed it to them. However, suppose they consult a nutritionist who manages to cure them of that allergy. Now the situation has changed. It's no longer a violation of God's law.

God's law cannot, therefore, should not be reduced to a set of rigid rules such as "Thou shalt not eat peanut butter." Such specifics are SITUATIONAL and only point to the real meaning of the law (love). If God's voice tells me to eat peanut butter, I'll eat it. If it tells me to abstain, I'll abstain. Whether or not the Bible says to eat peanut butter is totally irrelevant. Only God's voice can tell me what the law of love entails.

In a nutshell, I don't care if every page of the Bible says, "Honor the Sabbath."

As you yourself said:

And you know, without the Lord spelling out for us how to lover our neighbors and Him, we wouldn't know how to. If you doubt that, look at the what passes for "love" in the world.

SDAs tend to be hypocritical. They have no qualms about taking a 2-week vacation in the Bahamas. (What happened to working six days a week as the ten commandments decreed?). And in fact they only work five days instead of six. By so acting, they imply that ethics is situational. The specifics of how to apply the law can change at any moment (for instance the moment you are ready to take your 2-week vacation in the Bahamas).

That's precisely the position of the non-Sabbatarian. We hold that ethics is situational, and that God's voice hasn't restricted us to the Saturday Sabbath given to Israel.

You know, Eve had a rather clear conscience about eating the fruit. Now of course by clear i mean muddy, but I trust you get what I'm saying.

You're not making any sense here. Eve violated here conscience.

It's been my opinion that a properly functioning conscience wouldn't accept anyone but God abrogating His law.

It's not abrogation. It's application. God's voice tells us how to apply it. God didn't abrogate some of His law. He's just as committed to all of it today as in Israel's day. And, as always, His voice (speaking through conscience), tells us how to apply it today. That's precisely why I don't see any need to honor a Saturday sabbath.

Well I'd fully agree with you if there was such a thing as a "Jewish" sabbath. However, considering that the sabbath was made for man...

Funny how you SDAs like to cite verses where Jesus was drawing a conclusion precisely opposite of SDAism. "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath" means that the sabbath was supposed to serve man (be a blessing) instead of man being enslaved to a ritual. That's why jesus and His disciples broke it whenever it got in the way.

...and that it began in Eden before there was a "jew" or "gentile", I can't follow that logic.

You can't follow the logic because you don't understand situational ethics. Read my lips. YOU CAN'T GET THE SPECIFIC'S OF GOD'S WILL FROM THE BIBLE. For example, the Bible can't tell you whether you should go to work tomorrow (a terrorist might be planning to bomb the building as with 911). Only God's voice has all that information.


But since you mentioned the garden, let's talk about it. SDAs claim that we should follow God's example seen in the garden. So what did God do?
(1) He worked six days
(2) He rested on the seventh.
SDAs take the easy way out. On the EASY part (the resting), they follow God's example. But on the hard part (working six days), they don't follow His example. And then they rebuke the rest of us for not following God's example! LOL.