Healthcare, socialism and christians

[nvxplorer]

Probably not. But I'd say he cares very much about the difference between someone for whom helping the poor amounts to actually going and doing it versus one who thinks they've helped the poor by supporting a law that requires others to do it.

I disagree. I would think God smiles on a people who take it upon themselves to help the downtrodden.

My point being, the lack of individual giving by those who support greater government programs as compared to those on the other side of the issue makes me wonder if it's really about actually helping the poor at all.

If private donations were sufficient, we wouldn't need government mandates.

What would it be about if not helping the poor?

 

[nvxplorer]

The facts on charitable giving disprove this.

Not at all. Show me charitible giving without taxing a tax deduction and you'll have a point.

Regardless, I was simply providing a possible reason which has nothing to do with statistics.

 

[nvxplorer]

Wait, you left one off...

3) They are realistic thinkers who are well aware of the dangers of a vast, authoritarian state a la Hitler, Stalin and Mao and realize that universal health care is yet another big step in that direction.

Wrong! Providing affordable healthcare for all is the work of SANTA...also known as...SATAN!!!! Hitler was a poseur.

 

[allhart]

Wow. Thank you for supporting the second option I listed. I can't image who you are referring to, as I know no "statists." Your post reads like something out of a science fiction novel. It's not even in the same universe as the reality I've known.

Try reading my post #29 or read the book by mark Levin "Liberty & Tyranny" for a different perspective on things or might you think you have a defeater belief. A stigma that you can't get your mind around. That only allows you to see life one way or one sided.

 

[Received]

"Yet when we measure monetary giving as a percentage of income in order to ascertain the level of one’s “sacrifice,” we find a surprising result: it is low-income working families that are the most generous group in America, giving away about 4.5 percent of their income on average. This compares to about 2.5 percent among the middle class, and 3 percent among high-income families."

Yep.

Further, "A large majority of U.S. citizens donate money each year to houses of worship and charitable organizations." Church money is used -- many people fail to realize -- largely to keep the church running optimally, and growing; although a little may be spent on missions, most of it probably isn't spent on places that really matter. As for charitable organizations, that's too broad a term: this could include things like art and music, not education or community outreach.

 

[nvxplorer]

Try reading my post #29 or read the book by mark Levin "Liberty & Tyranny" for a different perspective on things or might you think you have a defeater belief. A stigma that you can't get your mind around. That only allows you to see life one way or one sided.

I'm 52 years old. I have a grandchild. I'm a Vietnam era Navy veteran. I own my home - outright. I own my convertible. I'm still paying for my Harley, but hey, it's brand new. I live in a beautiful city at the foot of the Sierra. My girlfriend is wonderful, and my White Sox won the World Series before I died.

WHY ON EARTH WOULD I WANT TO READ SOME NONSENSE DOOMSDAY SCENARIO THAT HAS NO BASIS IN REALITY?

I've seen this movie before. 1993. The world didn't end. We didn't go communist. The only tyranny was that of the Blue Dress. Nonsense. Freaks. Watch out for the black helicopters! Duck!!!

 

[allhart]

I'm 52 years old. I have a grandchild. I'm a Vietnam era Navy veteran. I own my home - outright. I own my convertible. I'm still paying for my Harley, but hey, it's brand new. I live in a beautiful city at the foot of the Sierra. My girlfriend is wonderful, and my White Sox won the World Series before I died.

WHY ON EARTH WOULD I WANT TO READ SOME NONSENSE DOOMSDAY SCENARIO THAT HAS NO BASIS IN REALITY?

I've seen this movie before. 1993. The world didn't end. We didn't go communist. The only tyranny was that of the Blue Dress. Nonsense. Freaks. Watch out for the black helicopters! Duck!!!

The ( pro's and con's) in Conservatism, Statistism applied to civil society in our Constitution and Declaration of independence! Putts you on one side or the other. Most of civil society's problems stem from a moral one and most people try to blur the line between right and wrong, good and bad, just and unjust and means and ends. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is assumed responsibility's. Statists want utopia and will take your liberty/freedom in the pursuit of so called fairness.

 

[nvxplorer]

The ( pro's and con's) in Conservatism, Statistism applied to civil society in our Constitution and Declaration of independence! Putts you on one side or the other. Most of civil society's problems stem from a moral one and most people try to blur the line between right and wrong, good and bad, just and unjust and means and ends. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is assumed responsibility's. Statists want utopia and will take your liberty/freedom in the pursuit of so called fairness.

I'll try one more time.

In 1993, I was told that my liberty was in danger. NO ONE TOOK MY LIBERTY. The very same people who screamed in 1993 are screaming now. I DON'T BELIEVE THEM. Clear?

(It's quite obvious that the "uproar" is nothing more than partisan politics. Wouldn't you agree?)

 

[allhart]

When I look at my check after all of my blood, sweat and tears "then" you say you want more of my money? I resent you or anyone that claims hold to what isn't yours!!!!! When is enough, enough? Does it ever stop or will the gov. and the statists just scheme another unjust to rob from ones prosperity? I am glad you can buy or pay for your own way and assume responsibility's in your life, but so will the next generation like to do so and still be free! You can dehumanize conservatives or de-legitimize the indidviual all you want, for now we have unalienable rights and can agree to disagree. Life, Liberty and pursuit of happiness/property!

 

[allhart]

I'll try one more time.

In 1993, I was told that my liberty was in danger. NO ONE TOOK MY LIBERTY. The very same people who screamed in 1993 are screaming now. I DON'T BELIEVE THEM. Clear?

(It's quite obvious that the "uproar" is nothing more than partisan politics. Wouldn't you agree?)

Just like a frog in cold water, turning on the heat in slow increments (killing the frog) or allow the camels nose under the tent before you know it he's all the way in the tent. Do you think they are just going to take liberty all at once? You will have the American people up in their face, but take it a little at a time and indoctrinate the next generation. Acts 28: 26-27 comes to mind, with you my friend and, so you don't have much to lose? Also you can't get a different perspective on life until life of oppression is upon you. I pay enough dues. I want reform not deform of my health-care and not at the expense of the nation. ( Bankruptcy) Fix the issue just don't turn it up on its head. Don't get rid of what works.... Address the grievances of substance. Not a complete change of the whole system.

 

[nvxplorer]

When I look at my check after all of my blood, sweat and tears "then" you say you want more of my money?

I don't want any of your money. You seem incoherent.

I resent you or anyone that claims hold to what isn't yours!!!!! When is enough, enough? Does it ever stop or will the gov. and the statists just scheme another unjust to rob from ones prosperity?

Oh brother. You haven't listened to a word I've said, have you? I'm 52. When my son was born in 1980, I paid a higher tax rate than I do now. We didn't starve. We did just fine.

I am glad you can buy or pay for your own way and assume responsibility's in your life, but so will the next generation like to do so and still be free!

And yet, here we are, still free! How can that be?

You can dehumanize conservatives or de-legitimize the indidviual all you want,

I have no idea what you're talking about. I dehumanized no one. I put the word "conservative" in quotes. I'm conservative. Those you find at tea parties are not.

for now we have unalienable rights and can agree to disagree.

The only rights we have are those that we grant ourselves. What we give can also be taken away. Just ask any convicted pot smoker how inalienable his right to vote or bear arms is.

Life, Liberty and pursuit of happiness/property!

Thank you again for supporting my argument - the first option, this time. It's the inclusion of "property" that gives away the selfishness. Chattel, anyone? Slaves for sale!

 

[allhart]

I don't want any of your money. You seem incoherent.

Oh brother. You haven't listened to a word I've said, have you? I'm 52. When my son was born in 1980, I paid a higher tax rate than I do now. We didn't starve. We did just fine.

And yet, here we are, still free! How can that be?

I have no idea what you're talking about. I dehumanized no one. I put the word "conservative" in quotes. I'm conservative. Those you find at tea parties are not.

The only rights we have are those that we grant ourselves. What we give can also be taken away. Just ask any convicted pot smoker how inalienable his right to vote or bear arms is.

Thank you again for supporting my argument - the first option, this time. It's the inclusion of "property" that gives away the selfishness. Chattel, anyone? Slaves for sale!

Give your money to your charity then your preferred charity sounds like your (Gov.) lol. It's not like the collective doesn't take it or anything like that. God doesn't even force me to love him. Further more I pay my dues and when the Gov. takes over half of what I earned with out my consent then turns around and borrows money from China and over spends. I have a problem with all who vote for a living and don't work for a living! So GIVE ME A BREAK! Oh by the way you know we have Deficits and we are broke, not including our liability payouts!

 

[nvxplorer]

Give your money to your charity then your preferred charity sounds like your (Gov.) lol. It's not like the collective doesn't take it or anything like that. God doesn't even force me to love him. Further more I pay my dues and when the Gov. takes over half of what I earned with out my consent then turns around and borrows money from China and over spends. I have a problem with all who vote for a living and don't work for a living! So GIVE ME A BREAK! Oh by the way you know we have Deficits and we are broke, not including our liability's!

Collective. You give yourself away.

I have a problem with whiners, so I guess we're even. I don't pay over half my income in taxes, so if you think I'm going to feel sorry for someone who makes more money than me, you're sadly mistaken. Here...take my hankie.

 

[allhart]

Collective. You give yourself away.

I have a problem with whiners, so I guess we're even. I don't pay over half my income in taxes, so if you think I'm going to feel sorry for someone who makes more money than me, you're sadly mistaken. Here...take my hankie.

O.K. Robin-hood. Taking from one to satisfy your Social justice "A". The problem with this whole thing is a moral one and the biggest problem in civil society is it injects imperfection into all of our lives. People blur the lines between right and wrong, just and unjust , left and right and means and end...... And the people think to live in the middle, well God doesn't live in the middle, my friend! I don't think my Gov can do anymore than me, nor can they love my family or neighbor more than me, also I don't think they can allocate my own money better in bureaucracy and from behind a desk in Washington D.C. than me! The Gov can't do anything, unless they first take it from you! At least God doesn't demand more than you can afford to give also he only requires 10% of the start. 40-70% is over the top...Never worked for a poor-man either!

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

When Jesus made the call to care for the sick and poor, was he talking to the government or to individuals?

You seem to have fallen into the same misguided impression of American conservatives as the left here has which is that you are equating opposing GOVERNEMNT care for the poor and sick with opposing doing it at all.

Going back to Jesus, ALL of his directives and commands were aimed at the individual, were they not? Did he say "go and set up government programs to care for the sick and poor" or did he say simply "go do it"?

I couldn't agree more. Each individual Christian must do everything in his or her power to alleviate the suffering of the poor and the sick.
Incidentally this includes those individual Christians lucky enough to live in a democracy using their individual vote to bring about the government most committed to such Christian ideals.

It is each individual Christian's duty to do this, IMO.
Same with abortion.

 

[chaz345]

Does the context indicate violence? Was anyone hurt? (Really, I'm asking honestly).

Read the description of what he did. There's more to it than just flipping over their tables.

 

[chaz345]

Regardless, I was simply providing a possible reason which has nothing to do with statistics.

A possible reason that just "coincidentially" amounts to a character attack on an entire group.

 

[chaz345]

Give your money to your charity then your preferred charity sounds like your (Gov.)

One of the most liberal states in the country(MA) turned the state into a charity by putting a line on the tax form for additional voluntary contributions. The amount collected didn't even pay for the cost of changing the forms. Speaks volumes about how much liberals care. It's not about helping the poor, through goverment or otherwise, it's about solving society's problems using other people's money.

 

[chaz345]

I couldn't agree more. Each individual Christian must do everything in his or her power to alleviate the suffering of the poor and the sick.
Incidentally this includes those individual Christians lucky enough to live in a democracy using their individual vote to bring about the government most committed to such Christian ideals.

It is each individual Christian's duty to do this, IMO.
Same with abortion.

The thing is here in this country, the very same ones that are using Christ's directives to try to shape government policy when it comes to social programs immediately start screaming about separation of church and state when the topic switches to abortion. Or they say that Christ never said anything about abortion, which is techincally correct, but then they ignore the fact that he never said anything about helping the poor through government action either. Like someone else said, if helping the poor and giving to the government were in any way related, then why did he separate it when he said to give to the government (Ceasar) what is theirs and give to God what is His?

And where this becomes particularly problematic is that the existance of these government programs causes some to think, "hey I've done my part by paying my taxes, I don't need to give anymore."

 

[Sketcher]

My question for you is. Why are 'conservative chrsitians' such a huge lobby in the US?

Abortion. Free exercise rights.

No one ever seems to mention that Jesus was probably the most socialist guy of his time.

in one of his only directly quoted statements in the Bible he told you all to take care of the sick? So why is it, in this healthcare debate, is there huge opposition from right wing christians?

Jesus told people to care for the sick, visit those in prison, give to the poor, and so forth. But he did not say that the government should do it. He said we should do it. We are commanded to give out of our own means. But paying taxes is not giving. Jesus wanted real giving.

Right-wing Christians not only recognize this, but we also recognize the poor track record of the American government in its brief history of social welfare. It causes disincentives to work, and if you're a single mom, disincentives to marry. It subjects people to onerous regulations, whether you're a needy person receiving the aid, or someone who provides aid, or who would have provided aid. And on top of this, there's no way in heck we can pay for it.

Now, with all this in mind, we can look at the actual health care plan that is being proposed. The provision that would protect pro-life doctors and hospitals (there are many Catholic hospitals, for instance) from not having to perform abortions was narrowly defeated. The increased mandates would drive up costs (which are the main problem), rather than reduce them. Small businesses would be hit hard by play-or-pay, which would contribute to unemployment. The "public option" would eventually kill off market competition, since a government plan would not be forced to compete fairly. So what we would wind up with is more of the same corporatism in the short run, and a mandated monopoly in the long run, with out-of-control costs, as well as shortages in care. I believe in our Lord's wisdom, so I highly doubt he would endorse such a plan.

What right-wing Christians do want to see in the health care arena is a different kind of reform. We want to see costs arrested. We want to see more competition, as that would lead to more value and more fairness. We want to see more freedom in how to be creative in providing health care at a fair price. We want to see the areas in which we are doing well to continue to do well. These outcomes would benefit everybody, and Republicans have proposals which would do a lot of these things.