Healthcare, socialism and christians

[phillipoffrance]

Cheers for the replies guys. I came here because I figured anyone who has christianity as such a big part of their life they come to forums, I would probably get the most devout opinions.

The fact that there is debate, and civil at that, has put my mind at ease about the state of the debacle!

 

[allhart]

Philosopher C.S. Lewis wrote, "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."

 

[nvxplorer]

When Jesus made the call to care for the sick and poor, was he talking to the government or to individuals?

You seem to have fallen into the same misguided impression of American conservatives as the left here has which is that you are equating opposing GOVERNEMNT care for the poor and sick with opposing doing it at all.

Going back to Jesus, ALL of his directives and commands were aimed at the individual, were they not? Did he say "go and set up government programs to care for the sick and poor" or did he say simply "go do it"?

Lousy excuse. Do you really think God cares whether the help comes from government, a church or the Salvation Army? What's in your heart? If it's love, you wouldn't care how people are helped, as long as they're helped. Isn't that what God is looking at? Your heart? I doubt God cares about the "Pay To" line in your checkbook.

 

[King Nebuchadnezzah]

Lousy excuse. Do you really think God cares whether the help comes from government, a church or the Salvation Army? What's in your heart? If it's love, you wouldn't care how people are helped, as long as they're helped. Isn't that what God is looking at? Your heart? I doubt God cares about the "Pay To" line in your checkbook.

Is it okay to rob you at gunpoint then justify it by using the money I just stole from you to feed a starving child?

 

[allhart]

Reformation: Reform is not change in the substance or in the primary modification of the object(health-care), but a direct application of a remedy to the grievance complained of....

 

[nvxplorer]

Is it okay to rob you at gunpoint then justify it by using the money I just stole from you to feed a starving child?

Stop the hysterical rhetoric. Take a US civics class, and then get back to me.

(Do you consider all government services to be robbery, or just those that help the disadvantaged?)

 

[Billnew]

Hi



No one ever seems to mention that Jesus was probably the most socialist guy of his time.

in one of his only directly quoted statements in the Bible he told you all to take care of the sick? So why is it, in this healthcare debate, is there huge opposition from right wing christians?

I simply state that christians in the US are now conservative first and christians second. Ie, if the plan comes from a liberal, even though it is christian, it is evil. But if the plan that was against jesus' teachings came from a conservative, it would be swallowed. Because liberals have bought you abortion etc, anti christian things, you take scorn to all their actions. However, conservatives have also taken anti christian actions. Yet you dont scorn them...

Partisan conservatives first...christans second

I am a French (raised in UK) Christian, so I don't know the culture. But it seems to me this is the case. It also seems to be something rarely pointed out.

Can someone please mount a defence against this statement. As I would be very interested in hearing it.


(for the conservatives amongst you)

Easily.
Jesus told his followers to care for the sick and poor. He did not force anyone to give anything. Give from the heart.
Goverment caring for the sick and poor is not what Jesus comanded.
I actually think Jesus would lean more towards comunism. Commune: all people taking care and sharing with all people, not out of requirement, but out of love.
Thus a goverment of Communism would not be what Jesus would want either. Because goverments have to mandate everything. Thus people would not be giving out of kindness or love, but out of demand from the goverment.
Since the election of Obama, I come to realize, neither side fits perfectly in Christianity. One side wants to allow people to do anything that feels good(free love, sex without responsibility, abortion) and the other side that cringes at the mere mention of helping someone with tax payer money.
I believe Jesus wants us to be responsible, just and give to the poor.
Don't confuse goverment mandates(you will pay for this hand out) with jesus request for us to give.(please give to those in need, share what you have extra so they will have what they need.)

 

[nvxplorer]

I can think of two reasons why "conservatives" would oppose government help for the poor.

1) They are selfish. Plain and simple.
2) They have been indoctrinated () into believing government is evil, and the private individual is not.

 

[allhart]

Look people (EQUALITY), as understood by the Founders, is the natural right of individual to live freely under (SELF-GOVERNMENT), to acquire and retain the property he creates through his own labor and to be treated impartially before a just law. Moreover, equality should no be confused with perfection, for man is also imperfect, making his application of equality, even in the most just society, imperfect. Otherwise, inequality is the natural state of man in the sense that each individual is born unique in all human characteristics. Therefore, equality and inequality, properly comprehended, are both engines of LIBERTY!

 

[lawtonfogle]

Is it okay to rob you at gunpoint then justify it by using the money I just stole from you to feed a starving child?

Was it your starving child, and was that the only way to feed them?

 

[lawtonfogle]

Look people (EQUALITY), as understood by the Founders, is the natural right of individual to live freely under (SELF-GOVERNMENT), to acquire and retain the property he creates through his own labor and to be treated impartially before a just law.

Except this assumes that ownership is some natural process tied into trade. It assumes I own my own time, and that I own, by some unspoken means, everything which I have been given or traded for. Yet reality seems to show that we only own things we have the power to keep others from claiming ownership of. Luckily, or intelligently, we decided it would be in our best interest to bind our power together to emulate some form of natural ownership this assumes, but in our very binding, we have created the government.

 

[allhart]

I can think of two reasons why "conservatives" would oppose government help for the poor.

1) They are selfish. Plain and simple.
2) They have been indoctrinated () into believing government is evil, and the private individual is not.

For a Statist, Liberty is not a blessing, but an enemy. It is not possible to achieve Utopia if individuals are free to go their own way. The individual must be dehumanized and his nature de-legitimized. Through persuasion, deception and coercion, the individual must be subordinated to the state. he must abandon his own ambitions for the ambitions of the state. He must become reliant on and fearful of the state. His first duty must be to the state----not family, community and faith, all which have the potential of threatening the state. Once dispirited, the individual can be molded by the state.

 

[King Nebuchadnezzah]

Stop the hysterical rhetoric. Take a US civics class, and then get back to me.

(Do you consider all government services to be robbery, or just those that help the disadvantaged?)

Those that tax you directly, yes.....maybe its you who need to take a lesson in civics.

Again, lets discuss what is causing healthcare to be so expensive, until then this debate will be nothing but assumptive stupidity and a proposing of more useless, bound to fail gov't programs based on good intentions.

 

[eldermike]

Matthew 22:20-22 (English Standard Version)

20And Jesus said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" 21They said, "Caesar’s." Then he said to them, (A) "Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s." 22When they heard it, they marveled. And they(B) left him and went away

Who's image are you rendering to? Washington?
Why did Jesus seperate giving to government and God?

A socialist would not see these things this way, right?

But notice the conservatives do see things this way. The socialists asks: is giving to the government the same thing as giving to God? The conservative says: you are called to give to God apart from giving to the government. That's what Jesus said, right?

If it's Washingtons then give it to washington, if it's God's then give it to God. But no where in scripture will you find that giving to washington is giving to God.

God hates to share things, He will not share you or your money with anyone or anyones agenda. If you believe you are feeding the poor with taxes how then do you balance that in your world view with bombing the opressed with some of the same money. If you believe that the money you give washington heals the sick, how do you balance that with pork barrel pay-offs and the dirty political business of staying in office, with some of the same money.

Jesus was not a conservative, nor a liberal, these are foolish titles in the kingdom of God. Our imperfections and the stain of sin of ever thing we touch will not mix with the concept of doing God's work. The bible says that even our best work is like filthy rags to a Holy God.

If you see someone in need and your answer is socialism, good luck with that.

 

[King Nebuchadnezzah]

Was it your starving child, and was that the only way to feed them?

Irrelevant......

 

[chaz345]

Lousy excuse. Do you really think God cares whether the help comes from government, a church or the Salvation Army? What's in your heart? If it's love, you wouldn't care how people are helped, as long as they're helped. Isn't that what God is looking at? Your heart? I doubt God cares about the "Pay To" line in your checkbook.

Probably not. But I'd say he cares very much about the difference between someone for whom helping the poor amounts to actually going and doing it versus one who thinks they've helped the poor by supporting a law that requires others to do it.

My point being, the lack of individual giving by those who support greater government programs as compared to those on the other side of the issue makes me wonder if it's really about actually helping the poor at all.

 

[allhart]

Who's image are you rendering to? Washington?
Why did Jesus seperate giving to government and God?

A socialist would not see these things this way, right?

But notice the conservatives do see things this way. The socialists asks: is giving to the government the same thing as giving to God? The conservative says: you are called to give to God apart from giving to the government. That's what Jesus said, right?

If it's Washingtons then give it to washington, if it's God's then give it to God. But no where in scripture will you find that giving to washington is giving to God.

God hates to share things, He will not share you or your money with anyone or anyones agenda. If you believe you are feeding the poor with taxes how then do you balance that in your world view with bombing the opressed with some of the same money. If you believe that the money you give washington heals the sick, how do you balance that with pork barrel pay-offs and the dirty political business of staying in office, with some of the same money.

Jesus was not a conservative, nor a liberal, these are foolish titles in the kingdom of God. Our imperfections and the stain of sin of ever thing we touch will not mix with the concept of doing God's work. The bible says that even our best work is like filthy rags to a Holy God.

If you see someone in need and your answer is socialism, good luck with that.

Good points of view. The perspective of government and God is wisdom from God.

 

[chaz345]

Because those studies have had some pretty serious challenges raised against them.
For me personally, the biggest question is this:
Are donations to churches considered to be charitable donations? And if they are considered charitable donations, is it still fair to say that church goers (who are "predominantly" right wing) are more philanthropic towards their fellow man, or that their donations are more targetted at their church and its infrastructure?

The study I read accounted for the difference in church donations in right versus left.


Regardless of specific numbers, I'm sure you'd agree that there are at least SOME who advocate greater government programs who figure that that advocacy and the money they do pay in taxes is all they need to be doing. OTOH I'm sure there are some on the other side of the debate who figure that giving to their church is enough.

 

[chaz345]

I think you may be missing my point here.
I am not a doctor and I can't cure, or help someone deal with, say lupus. Is God calling me to perform the job of a doctor?

That you don't have the specific skills to serve that specific need doesn't preclude you from individually or as part of a group, providing the resources that make it possible for someone with those skills to provide the services at little to no cost to the end user.

 

[chaz345]

If it's Washingtons then give it to washington, if it's God's then give it to God. But no where in scripture will you find that giving to washington is giving to God.

VERY good point that I hadn't considered in quite those terms. I had always considered the fact that money given to the Roman government did little to nothing to help the local poor and sick.