Healthcare, socialism and christians

[chaz345]

I can think of two reasons why "conservatives" would oppose government help for the poor.

1) They are selfish. Plain and simple.

The facts on charitable giving disprove this.

 

[allhart]

The study I read accounted for the difference in church donations in right versus left.


Regardless of specific numbers, I'm sure you'd agree that there are at least SOME who advocate greater government programs who figure that that advocacy and the money they do pay in taxes is all they need to be doing. OTOH I'm sure there are some on the other side of the debate who figure that giving to their church is enough.

(Self-government) God requires 10% in forwarding His kingdom, but it doesn't stop there, by assuming our responsibility's as Christians. God asks us to take care of the peoples outside needs (the poor and disabled) and He will take care of their hearts and minds! However if I can't take care of myself and family how can I do anything for anyone else? My first responsibility is loving myself and family..... Money isn't everything we give, our legacy, examples, obedience to God by loving my neighbor as myself..... We give according to our resources and ever ones needs vary!

 

[DaisyDay]

(Self-government) God requires 10% in forwarding His kingdom, but it doesn't stop there, by assuming our responsibility's as Christians. God asks us to take care of the peoples outside needs (the poor and disabled) and He will take care of their hearts and minds! However if I can't take care of myself and family how can you do anything for anyone else? My first responsibility is to myself and family..... Money isn't everything to giving, our legacy, examples, obedience to God by loving my neighbor as myself.....

You can give the gift of allowing other people to be charitable to you and your family; you get taken care of and they get some good works in.

 

[allhart]

You can give the gift of allowing other people to be charitable to you and your family; you get taken care of and they get some good works in.

The Gift that keeps on giving is Love, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience

 

[voiceofsoul]

I would rather tear my baby from my wife's belly with my bare hands than entrust the delivery of my child to an Obama, Bush or Clinton, but I digress.

 

[voiceofsoul]

I can think of two reasons why "conservatives" would oppose government help for the poor.

1) They are selfish. Plain and simple.
2) They have been indoctrinated () into believing government is evil, and the private individual is not.

Wait, you left one off...

3) They are realistic thinkers who are well aware of the dangers of a vast, authoritarian state a la Hitler, Stalin and Mao and realize that universal health care is yet another big step in that direction.

 

[lordbt]

I can think of two reasons why "conservatives" would oppose government help for the poor.

1) They are selfish. Plain and simple.
2) They have been indoctrinated () into believing government is evil, and the private individual is not.

There is a third reason that you have obviously not considered--
3) They are guided by principle. That it is possible to oppose such government action on moral grounds. Government action that tramples human liberty is an evil through which no good can come.

 

[Douger]

I can think of two reasons why "conservatives" would oppose government help for the poor.

1) They are selfish. Plain and simple.
2) They have been indoctrinated () into believing government is evil, and the private individual is not.

How about that we don't believe in forcing our religious beliefs on others? (which happens to be my own reason)

 

[reverend C]

it is my opinion that people not being burdened by the hardships of acquiring health care under our present system will release them into freedoms that they don't enjoy now, like being able to switch jobs, take one that represents an opportunity that might not supply benefits, start a business they couldn't afford to attempt otherwise, and so on. can people come up with more examples of how this could free the population to pursue their dreams? right now, our system is a prison to many more people than just those that don't have insurance. for many, it is the insurance itself that is the cell. health care reform is not an attack on freedom, but a delivery of it.

 

[Received]

He also realized the sometimes violent resistance is the only way. Or have you forgotten about how He dealt with the moneychangers in the temple?

Does the context indicate violence? Was anyone hurt? (Really, I'm asking honestly).

 

[reverend C]

How about that we don't believe in forcing our religious beliefs on others? (which happens to be my own reason)

it may be yours, but we know that most of the adamant conservatives on here would love to impose their religion on others. i could quote mine their posts for hours to prove this to you, but i don't think you really doubt it. do you?

 

[reverend C]

Does the context indicate violence? Was anyone hurt? (Really, I'm asking honestly).

of course not. it's the use of hyperbole in the hope that no one will notice.

 

[Pommer]

Does the context indicate violence? Was anyone hurt? (Really, I'm asking honestly).

Malach lost an "i", I believe.





So sue me...they can't all be gems.

 

[voiceofsoul]

it may be yours, but we know that most of the adamant conservatives on here would love to impose their religion on others. i could quote mine their posts for hours to prove this to you, but i don't think you really doubt it. do you?

That is because they are not true conservatives, they are neo-conservative populists. Most of them were Democrats 20-30 years ago, but then Democrats went wild with abortion, gun control, and anti-Christian political correctness; which sent them into the Republican Party. This forum is loaded with them, they have no respect for republican principles and conservative economics. I am a live-and-let-live, conservative-republican Christian.

 

[Received]

of course not. it's the use of hyperbole in the hope that no one will notice.

What do you mean?

 

[reverend C]

What do you mean?

it is the only time in scripture that Christ shows His temper, so the hawkish among us like to point to it to justify violence, but to call this violence is hyperbole, a gross exaggeration of the truth. but it's all they have, so they hope you don't really have the capability to read critically.

 

[Received]

Ah, gotcha. True that.

 

[sdmsanjose]

Socialism has about as many definitions as Capitalism. I think it is possible to talk about either in general and it would be very easy for someone to get the wrong idea about the specific position of someone using a general definition. For example, I have expressed my view on helping the poor and taxes and I have been labeled as someone that advocates additional taxes without limits.
In other words I am an revolutionary socialist. That was an assumption without basis taken from a general statement about my position that some of the tax money should be used for the poor.

I will try to be as specific as possible even though that will be difficult. Since health care is the hot topic this season I will try to talk specifically about it. My guess is that most that oppose health care for all in the USA are against it for monetary reasons as opposed to moral reasons.

First I will say that the monetary reason is a very important consideration. If providing health care to all USA citizens will bankrupt the nation as some have claimed, then my self preservation side of me will kick in and I say, hold off on the health care. If we believe that the health care for all will not create a financial disaster then I would look to the moral issue. The big question here is, will the universal health care proposal bankrupt the nation?

For me the moral issue will have to have the Bible as one of the main sources for guidance. I do not think that there is a lot of opposition from Christians that each INDIVIDULE should support the poor based on the scriptures. However, there is a good amount of opposition on our GOVERNMENT supporting the poor and that includes health care.

Because in the USA we have a REPRESENTATVE form of government I do not feel that we can completely separate our INDIVIDULE responsibility from our position and attitude with our form of government. There are those that say that the Bible says nothing about the GOVERNMENT helping the poor. I disagree and provide the scripture below as my basis

"May the reign of this son of mine ... take care of the helpless and poor when they cry to him; for they have no one else to defend them. He feels pity for the weak and needy and will rescue them. He will save them from oppression and from violence, for their lives are precious to him." (Ps. 72:4-6, 72:12-14)

The health care issue with pros and cons is a very hard issue to be specific about but I have attempted with my above post. I can actually see both sides of the issue; for me it depends on which of the two, monetary or moral issues are prominent. It goes back to the question of, is the health issue going to bankrupt the nation?
I am a self preservation man but I try to live up to the high standards as set forth by scriptures.

Do you think that one side is 100% wrong and the other 100% right

OR

Do you see two sides to this issue?

 

[nvxplorer]

For a Statist, Liberty is not a blessing, but an enemy. It is not possible to achieve Utopia if individuals are free to go their own way. The individual must be dehumanized and his nature de-legitimized. Through persuasion, deception and coercion, the individual must be subordinated to the state. he must abandon his own ambitions for the ambitions of the state. He must become reliant on and fearful of the state. His first duty must be to the state----not family, community and faith, all which have the potential of threatening the state. Once dispirited, the individual can be molded by the state.

Wow. Thank you for supporting the second option I listed. I can't image who you are referring to, as I know no "statists." Your post reads like something out of a science fiction novel. It's not even in the same universe as the reality I've known.

 

[nvxplorer]

Those that tax you directly, yes.....maybe its you who need to take a lesson in civics.

LOL! I guess I missed class the day taxation was defined as robbery. The lessons I remember had something to do with representative government, elections, ballot referendums and thingies like that.

Again, lets discuss what is causing healthcare to be so expensive, until then this debate will be nothing but assumptive stupidity and a proposing of more useless, bound to fail gov't programs based on good intentions.

I hate useless assumptive stupidity. Let's tax it! That should solve all our problems.