Did Jesus have brothers and sisters born of Mary

[LittleLambofJesus]

If, for the sake of argument, Joseph had other children by his former (now deceased) wife, how would scripture describe their relationship to Jesus based on how scripture has rendered the relationship between siblings of different mothers?

Would they not be called his "brothers"? If not, why not, and cite examples from scripture to back up your reasoning.

I believe scripture demonstrates that Jesus' brothers were older than Jesus based on their attempts to take charge of Him or direct His actions. If Jesus was the eldest among them He would have been their head in the absence of Joseph who is presumed to have died by the time Jesus begins His ministry. On this basis they could not be children of Mary's.

John

Good point!

 

[kiwimac]

If, for the sake of argument, Joseph had other children by his former (now deceased) wife, how would scripture describe their relationship to Jesus based on how scripture has rendered the relationship between siblings of different mothers?

Would they not be called his "brothers"? If not, why not, and cite examples from scripture to back up your reasoning.

I believe scripture demonstrates that Jesus' brothers were older than Jesus based on their attempts to take charge of Him or direct His actions. If Jesus was the eldest among them He would have been their head in the absence of Joseph who is presumed to have died by the time Jesus begins His ministry. On this basis they could not be children of Mary's.

John

I think you are reaching here. The scripture says that Jesus had brothers and sisters, I fail to understand why this is difficult to comprehend.

 

[narnia59]

I think you are reaching here. The scripture says that Jesus had brothers and sisters, I fail to understand why this is difficult to comprehend.

And they also say Joseph was his father.

Might that incline one to consider it can be problematic to make it so 'simple'?

 

[simonthezealot]

If, for the sake of argument, Joseph had other children by his former (now deceased) wife, how would scripture describe their relationship to Jesus based on how scripture has rendered the relationship between siblings of different mothers?

Why didn't they get mentioned in the trips to bethlehem Luke 2:4-7 and nazereth Matthew 2:20-23 if there were any brothers-sisters. Because none existed.

Would they not be called his "brothers"? If not, why not, and cite examples from scripture to back up your reasoning.

I'm more interested in seeing something FROM scripture to indicate that they are something less than 1/2 brothers. It's not there...YET in favor of 1/2 brothers you could view any of the following scriptures
Matthew 12:46, Luke 8:19, Mark 3:31 Matthew 13:55.Matthew 13:56. John 7:1-10, Acts 1:14, Galatians 1:19

I believe scripture demonstrates that Jesus' brothers were older than Jesus based on their attempts to take charge of Him or direct His actions. If Jesus was the eldest among them He would have been their head in the absence of Joseph who is presumed to have died by the time Jesus begins His ministry. On this basis they could not be children of Mary's.

John

Look there is no context anywhere of His mother and brothers coming to see Him that even hints anything but, blood-related brothers.

 

[Thekla]

Why didn't they get mentioned in the trips to bethlehem Luke 2:4-7 and nazereth Matthew 2:20-23 if there were any brothers-sisters. Because none existed.

or ...
1. they were appreciably older
2. they were among the general group of relatives
3. their presence was not considered pertinent to the significance of the account

I'm more interested in seeing something FROM scripture to indicate that they are something less than 1/2 brothers. It's not there...YET in favor of 1/2 brothers you could view any of the following scriptures
Matthew 12:46, Luke 8:19, Mark 3:31 Matthew 13:55.Matthew 13:56. John 7:1-10, Acts 1:14, Galatians 1:19

This still does not address whether they were 1/2 by Joseph or not, or any of the other relationships included in the definition (household, neighbor, etc.)

Look there is no context anywhere of His mother and brothers coming to see Him that even hints anything but, blood-related brothers.

Depends what you think when you read adelphoi (as a Greek speaker of the 1st century Roman Empire in the ME).

 

[cyberlizard]

Question. Did Jesus have brothers and sisters that were born thru Mary after the birth of Jesus?
I would like to see the Scriptures for and against any view rendered on this thread. Thanks and God bless

if it was not for the doctrine of 'perpetual virginity' this question would never even be asked.


Steve

 

[bbbbbbb]

This still leaves the translation of adelphoi incomplete, though.
As noted before, there are many words left incompletely or perhaps misleadingly translated.

I do think that the full meaning of words is not given because of clumsiness.

Here is the Gospel passage:


John 19:25

Yes, clumsiness is a problem. However, the advantage of multiple translations is that the various translators are aware of these problems and frequently use alternate words where applicable.

John 19:25 in the Amplified translation reads as follows:

John 19:25 (Amplified Bible)

25But by the cross of Jesus stood His mother, His mother's sister, Mary the [wife] of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.

As you can see they placed the word "wife" in parentheses to alert the reader to the possibility of other meanings.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yes, clumsiness is a problem. However, the advantage of multiple translations is that the various translators are aware of these problems and frequently use alternate words where applicable.

John 19:25 in the Amplified translation reads as follows:

John 19:25 (Amplified Bible)

25But by the cross of Jesus stood His mother, His mother's sister, Mary the [wife] of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.

As you can see they placed the word "wife" in parentheses to alert the reader to the possibility of other meanings.

I find it best just to write the english equivalent beside each and every greek word.

It seems like there are 2 article "the's" where your translation as "wife" in parenthesis.

I use this site for the greek texts and never really noticed that rendering until now

Search for 'Genesis 1:1' in the version

John 19:25 eisthkeisan <2476> (5715) {HAD STOOD} de <1161> {YET} para <3844> {BESIDE} tw <3588> {THE} staurw <4716> {CROSS} tou <3588> {OF THE} ihsou <2424> {JESUS} h <3588> {THE} mhthr <3384> {MOTHER} autou <846> {OF HIM} kai <2532> {AND} h <3588> {THE} adelfh <79> {SISTER} thV <3588> {OF THE} mhtroV <3384> {MOTHER} autou <846> {OF HIM} maria <3137> {MARY} h <3588> {THE} tou <3588> {OF THE} klwpa <2832> {CLEOPAS,} kai <2532> {AND} maria <3137> {MARY} h <3588> {THE} magdalhnh <3094> {MAGDALENE.}

 

[Thekla]

Yes, clumsiness is a problem. However, the advantage of multiple translations is that the various translators are aware of these problems and frequently use alternate words where applicable.

John 19:25 in the Amplified translation reads as follows:

John 19:25 (Amplified Bible)

25But by the cross of Jesus stood His mother, His mother's sister, Mary the [wife] of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.

As you can see they placed the word "wife" in parentheses to alert the reader to the possibility of other meanings.

I'm not sure what wife in parenthesis has to do with sister

 

[bbbbbbb]

I'm not sure what wife in parenthesis has to do with sister

Actually nothing, I am sure. I guess we can just chalk up the Amplified translation as being another one in agreement on the translation of the word, sister.

 

[narnia59]

Why didn't they get mentioned in the trips to bethlehem Luke 2:4-7 and nazereth Matthew 2:20-23 if there were any brothers-sisters. Because none existed.

Hmm. And assuming Jesus had several little brothers and sisters running around, why didn't they get mentioned in the trip to Jerusalam (Luke 2:41-52)? By the time he was twelve, Mary and Joseph would have multiple little ones around, but no mention of them.

Because none existed.

 

[narnia59]

Look there is no context anywhere of His mother and brothers coming to see Him that even hints anything but, blood-related brothers.

And yet Scripture cites Joseph as Jesus' father with there being no blood-relationship.

How again is it so improbable that Scripture would cite him as having brothers with no blood relationship?

 

[prodromos]

How do promoters of NO brothers and sisters explain the earliest of christian "church fathers" like Hegessipus being recorded as saying about Jude that he was "the Lord's brother according to the flesh" ?

Who are the promoters of NO brothers and sisters in this thread? Certainly not me. I am quite certain that Jesus had brothers and sisters who were children of Joseph by his former wife.

What is the alternative to "according to the flesh" ?

John

 

[prodromos]

I think you are reaching here.

Can you give a plausible explanation for Jesus' brothers trying to control and direct him?

The scripture says that Jesus had brothers and sisters

and I am not saying otherwise. Any sons and daughters of Joseph by his former wife are brothers and sisters of Jesus.

I fail to understand why this is difficult to comprehend.

Perhaps your focus is too narrow. Younger siblings did not try and control the head of the household. Older siblings obviously have no issues with trying to direct their younger brother.

John

 

[PaladinValer]

Jesus probably had half-brothers through St. Joseph.

It very well however could have been cousins, tight ones at that.

 

[prodromos]

Why didn't they get mentioned in the trips to bethlehem Luke 2:4-7 and nazereth Matthew 2:20-23 if there were any brothers-sisters. Because none existed.

The Church records that Salome, the wife of Zebedee and mother of James and John, is a daughter of Joseph and hence one of Jesus' sisters. This would make her quite a bit older than Jesus and also explains how she could be so bold as to ask of Christ for her two sons to sit at His right and left hand in His kingdom. The Coptic Church, separated since 451AD (a century before the Council of Constantinople declared Mary as ever virgin) also has the Tradition of James the son of Joseph accompanying the family on their flight into Egypt soon after Jesus' birth.

I'm more interested in seeing something FROM scripture to indicate that they are something less than 1/2 brothers. It's not there...

of course not. In Hebrew culture there is no concept of anything less than being a full brother. That is my whole point.

Look there is no context anywhere of His mother and brothers coming to see Him that even hints anything but, blood-related brothers.

Define what "blood-related" means in 1st Century Hebrew culture?

John

 

[prodromos]

John 19:25 (Amplified Bible)

25But by the cross of Jesus stood His mother, His mother's sister, Mary the [wife] of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.

As you can see they placed the word "wife" in parentheses to alert the reader to the possibility of other meanings.

In reality it is to alert the reader to the actual meaning implied by the Greek. The word "wife" may not be in the text, but in Greek it is almost always implied whereas the explicit terms wife or spouse are rarely used.

John

 

[simonthezealot]

Hmm. And assuming Jesus had several little brothers and sisters running around, why didn't they get mentioned in the trip to Jerusalam (Luke 2:41-52)? By the time he was twelve, Mary and Joseph would have multiple little ones around, but no mention of them.

Because none existed.

Thats incorrect verse 44 may be aluding to them...
But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance.

 

[simonthezealot]

And yet Scripture cites Joseph as Jesus' father with there being no blood-relationship.

It does? Just curious where is that? in what context?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Thats incorrect verse 44 may be aluding to them...
But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance.

#4773 used 12 times in 12 verses.

ISA) Luke 2:44 Thinking yet Him to be in the company, they came of a day a way and they sought Him in their kinsfolk/suggenesin <4773> and to the known ones/acquainteses

Textus Rec.) Luke 2:44 nomisanteV de auton en th sunodia einai hlqon hmeraV odon kai anezhtoun auton en toiV suggenesin kai en toiV gnwstoiV

Strong's Number G4773 matches the Greek &#963;&#965;&#947;&#947;&#949;&#957;&#8053;&#962; (syggen&#275;s), which occurs 12 times in 12 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

4773. suggenes soong-ghen-ace' from 4862 and 1085; a relative (by blood); by extension, a fellow countryman:--cousin, kin(-sfolk, -sman).
4862. sun soon a primary preposition denoting union;
1085. genos ghen'-os from 1096; "kin" (abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective):--born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock.