Taking questions on the Creation.

[BananaSlug]

You can't rush perfection, eh?

Yet he did it in six days?

 

[AV1611VET]

Yet he did it in six days?

Yes --- remember: He could have done it all in one picosecond.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

Yes --- remember: He could have done it all in one picosecond.

Actually, he did. It's called the Big Bang (thanks to Einstein, and it probably wasn't a "bang" either, as physical laws weren't yet in existence), and that picosecond is referred to as a singularity.

 

[JustMeSee]

"And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done"

If Genesis is to be taken literally, why does it say that God rested. Was She sleepy?

Also, why don't you use the original Hebrew version of Genesis instead of some other version?

 

[JustMeSee]

Why did God take Eve out from one of Adam's ribs, instead of creating her like He did Adam?

 

[JusSumguy]

It's important for folks to understand this next part.

You have to visualize this. When most folks think of the big bang, they think of a giant empty space that was filled up by the big bang (creation).

But that would be wrong. The Creation created the space to be filled up as well.

So.... Now listen, because this is a proven scientific fact......

In the beginning there was nothing. <--Sound familiar?


-

 

[Meshach]

This was posted by Cabal
Right, except he put mankind into an allegedly perfect world that yet contained one fruit which (somehow) screwed up everything for not just the two humans at the time, but all their descendants.

And given that he's meant to be omnipotent and omniscient, even before creating everything he knew that he was going to be sending the vast majority of these beings he apparently loved so much to hell, as a result of putting a choice in front of them they had no way of fully understanding to begin with. At best it's bad planning, at worst it's either a lack of total omnipotence or actual sadism.

Surely the simpler solution that allows less suffering for all concerned is - don't create?

I thought I would back pedal abit to this post by Cabal. These sorts of questions must enter everyone’s mind sooner or later. I am in no way claiming I have the answers but I have heard a number of messages, read a few books and have done a study or two of my own on these topics. I don’t know how big a post you can put up in here and I don’t want to bore you with a long post but it’s hard to give my take on this in a few short sentences. There was a time in my walk where I would always focus on the negative with God. My mind would be filled with many questions like these and was never really satisfied with any answers. That was before I understood or truly felt God’s love. We were created with free choice. God never set us up for failure, and it’s not because of Him that we disobey. It’s our choices. Could God have created us to ALWAYS obey, with no free choice? That would mean that all real choices would only belong to God, including the choice to sin or disobey. If you act on your own accord you are responsible, not God. What kind of relationship would a father have with his child if he or she was a robot? Every command programmed. You have to have that choice. That’s why I believe God put the tree there. I think it was J. Monsabre who said that if God would concede me His omnipotence for a little while I would make lots of changes in this world, but if He gave me His wisdom I wouldn’t change a thing. He is the Potter, we are the clay. It’s about obedience. He also forgave them. He clothed them in animal skins to cover their sin. Why is it harder for people to see the forgiveness than it is the judgment? Once a person truly realizes why they were created the simpler solution would not be –don’t create.
I stated earlier that God never set us up for failure or forced us to disobey. That is our choice. To say that they never truly understood the choice or if I personally would have done differently is hard to say. It was a command by God in which they disobeyed. Something like the ten commandments now that are scoffed at by many. Not requests but commands. I am going farther than I want to here. I will close with a few verses.
Many things we wont quite understand in this life but in the 12th verse of the 13th chapter of 1st Corinthians it states “now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully even as I am fully known.”
To say God put that choice there knowing the result would be sending a great majority of those He loved so much to hell would be I believe a comment from someone who doesn’t fully understand God’s love. There are many verses backing up God’s love for us. Did you know its four dimensional, or cube-shaped, perfect on all sides, infinite in all directions? Read Ephesians 3 verses 17 to 19. God also wants no one to perish and He states it in 2 Peter chapter 3 verse 9. What are Gods plans for you? Read all about them in Jeremiah chapter 29 verse 11 and 12. And the last verse I will post which most people, believers and non –believers probably hear more than any other verse. And it might seem like old news, or overused, or worn out until the true meaning captures your heart and that is John 3:16 “For God so loved the world….."
I did not do this good justice and I even thought about deleting it but it took me awhile to type out so i decided to post it after all. Hope it helps a bit.

 

[AV1611VET]

Why did God take Eve out from one of Adam's ribs, instead of creating her like He did Adam?

I like this --- from Matthew Henry's Commentary:

Adam was a figure of him that was to come; for out of the side of Christ, the second Adam, his spouse the church was formed, when he slept the sleep, the deep sleep, of death upon the cross, in order to which his side was opened, and there came out blood and water, blood to purchase his church and water to purify it to himself.

 

[JustMeSee]

I like this --- from Matthew Henry's Commentary:

And that is from The Bible?

 

[AV1611VET]

And that is from The Bible?

Yes --- with one minor detail:

Jesus is not called the 'Second Adam' in the Scriptures --- He is called the 'Last Adam.'

'Second Adam' is found in the Christmas song: God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen.

 

[CoderHead]

You can't rush perfection, eh?

And that's why He destroyed it with a flood and will someday destroy it again? That's what you call perfection? One would think that a "perfect" creation could be set in motion and left alone indefinitely. It is, afterall, perfect.

So.... Now listen, because this is a proven scientific fact......

In the beginning there was nothing.

Nuh-uh. There was a singularity containing all the matter in the universe. There was never nothing. Unless you have the scientific backing for your statement somewhere...

 

[Cabal]

I thought I would back pedal abit to this post by Cabal.

I can't say I really agree with what you wrote, but the response is appreciated, especially seeing as this is meant to be a Q&A thread

We were created with free choice.

We were created with ONE choice, and it was an uninformed one.

If I had a 4-year old child, and I asked then right then and there that I was going disinherit them unless they told me now whether they'd pick a fixed-rate mortgage or a variable-rate mortgage, what kind of choice would that be? If you can really call it that? That's how I see the Tree of Knowledge malarkey - a disproportionately loaded question asked to people who couldn't really ever grasp what they were being asked.

God never set us up for failure

Only if you look at it from an non-omniscient view. If you're omniscient, you KNOW that Adam and Eve are going to fail. If you still set the scenario up anyway knowing that outcome, you are setting them out to fail.

and it’s not because of Him that we disobey. It’s our choices. Could God have created us to ALWAYS obey, with no free choice? That would mean that all real choices would only belong to God, including the choice to sin or disobey.

Fine and dandy. So then why are we automatically cursed from birth because of someone else's choices, before we've even become aware of what we're doing, morality etc?

If you act on your own accord you are responsible, not God. What kind of relationship would a father have with his child if he or she was a robot? Every command programmed. You have to have that choice. That’s why I believe God put the tree there.

Again, this is exactly the kind of reasoning that always grinds my gears - the response is along the lines of "you don't properly understand God until die" or whatever, then in the same post the response contains "what else could God have done?" As if all the other choices weren't an option.

God is OMNIPOTENT. As in, can do ANYTHING. And you want to sit there and say that he only had ONE option? Can you even begin to comprehend the number of possible options available to someone who can do anything and then still make that kind of statement?

I think it was J. Monsabre who said that if God would concede me His omnipotence for a little while I would make lots of changes in this world, but if He gave me His wisdom I wouldn’t change a thing.

Then Mr Monsabre needs to get out more.

He is the Potter, we are the clay. It’s about obedience. He also forgave them. He clothed them in animal skins to cover their sin. Why is it harder for people to see the forgiveness than it is the judgment? Once a person truly realizes why they were created the simpler solution would not be –don’t create.

Hmm, maybe because an omnipotent being shouldn't be incapable of going without being loved, or incapable of going without creating, and if his only option despite all this omnipotence is to create an existence that turns everything to crap on the basis of one extremely arbitrary uninformed choice, surely some people might think making a few clothes is cold comfort?

I stated earlier that God never set us up for failure or forced us to disobey. That is our choice. To say that they never truly understood the choice or if I personally would have done differently is hard to say. It was a command by God in which they disobeyed. Something like the ten commandments now that are scoffed at by many. Not requests but commands.

Commands should still be logical and non-arbitrary - I don't expect any less from a God that claims to loves us so much.

Many things we wont quite understand in this life but in the 12th verse of the 13th chapter of 1st Corinthians it states “now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully even as I am fully known.”

Cold comfort for those who don't get their legitimate big questions answered, I'd say.

To say God put that choice there knowing the result would be sending a great majority of those He loved so much to hell would be I believe a comment from someone who doesn’t fully understand God’s love.

Many are called, few are chosen. Are you saying the vast majority of people that existed AREN'T going to hell? Are you saying that God ISN'T omniscient?

You can talk about love all you want - if you don't accept God, you go to hell.

There are many verses backing up God’s love for us. Did you know its four dimensional, or cube-shaped, perfect on all sides, infinite in all directions?

...

A cube is three-dimensional. And I'm disinclined to think of love as a physical object.

Read Ephesians 3 verses 17 to 19. God also wants no one to perish and He states it in 2 Peter chapter 3 verse 9.

I'm sure he doesn't, but that's never stopped him.

And if he wanted to not have anyone perish, he could have had a guaranteed zero on his scorecard under the "people I sent to hell" category if he hadn't created, or had come up with a better means of interaction with people instead of arbitrary fruit trees.

 

[AV1611VET]

One would think that a "perfect" creation could be set in motion and left alone indefinitely. It is, afterall, perfect.

I can build the perfect house and give it to a family to 'dress it and to keep it'; but if that family damages it, I may have to come back and make some big-time repairs.

I may even have to come back and burn it down and make a new one.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

Don't forget you built the family too.

 

[AV1611VET]

Don't forget you built the family too.

Yup --- and I gave that family freedom of choice to do right or wrong; and until they do wrong, they're not guilty of doing anything wrong --- and are perfect.

 

[Cabal]

The possibility of wrong occuring in an existence means that existence isn't perfect - the same applies to its inhabitants.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

So, you built the perfect house, then the perfect family, knowing that they could treat the house well, but deep down inside you knew that eventually they would throw a 'kegger' and invite all their friends and totally destroy your house.

In fact, this 'epic kegger' was enough to completely tick you off so much that you would completely destroy your house and kill everyone who came to the party (save a few good people)?

Just so you could rebuild the house and start over? That seems kind of shortsighted.

 

[AV1611VET]

The possibility of wrong occuring in an existence means that existence isn't perfect - the same applies to its inhabitants.

I disagree.

Listen to what the Bible says about Lucifer:

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Until he did wrong, he was perfect.

 

[AV1611VET]

So, you built the perfect house, then the perfect family, knowing that they could treat the house well, but deep down inside you knew that eventually they would throw a 'kegger' and invite all their friends and totally destroy your house.

In fact, this 'epic kegger' was enough to completely tick you off so much that you would completely destroy your house and kill everyone who came to the party (save a few good people)?

Just so you could rebuild the house and start over? That seems kind of shortsighted.

Well, this isn't the point of this thread.

The point of this thread is what condition the house & family were in prior to anything going wrong.

(Actually, it's a Q & A thread on the Creation Week.)

 

[Cabal]

I disagree.

Listen to what the Bible says about Lucifer:Until he did wrong, he was perfect.

Maybe he was just "very good"?

If God describes Satan as perfect, I'd hate to see what he'd come up with that was only "very good."

Oh wait.