AOCA and OCA

[cobweb]

Lord have mercy.

Has anyone else heard about this? I can't find anything official. I'm only seeing information from one side and (if this is true) would love to see +Met. Philip's side.

It has been reported that he has ordered all Antiochian first-year M. Div candidates to leave St. Vladimir's and St. Tikhon's.

PhilipPullsStudents8.14.09

and

The Ochlophobist: the AOANA latest - joseph allen affair tactics revisited, or, the times they aren't a changin'

 

[ArmyMatt]

Lord have mercy! I hope that's not true

 

[Chocolatesa]

I heard people in my parish talking about that too yesterday, how he took the candidates out. Lord have mercy!

 

[Greg the byzantine]

This is the least scandalous thing I've ever heard.

The post from ochlophobist was disrespectful and rude. To call an Orthodox Hierarch Anaxios over this little squabble is rather disgusting.

 

[Anhelyna]

Sadly the rumour is true

All new seminarians have , I understand been sent to Holy Cross

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

May the Lord have mercy on all involved.

 

[E.C.]

Lincoln's quote on slavery comes to mind: "a house divided can not stand on its own" or something to that effect.


Lord have mercy! A great example of what happens when we squabble on the politics that, in the end, do not matter!

 

[AureateDawn]

... Wow. Lord, have mercy!

 

[Andrew21091]

Lincoln's quote on slavery comes to mind: "a house divided can not stand on its own" or something to that effect.


Lord have mercy! A great example of what happens when we squabble on the politics that, in the end, do not matter!

They don't matter. This is sad news but I think everything will be fine. The problem is with Metropolitan Philip and the OCA, not the whole Archdiocese since Metropolitan Jonah, Archbishop Nathaniel, and Bishop Mark of Toledo (AOCA) concelebrated together on the Dormition at the Dormition Monastery in Michigan which I attended and Met. Jonah during his sermon said that despite rediculous arguments between all the jurisdictions, we are all one faith. This whole event is very dumb as are a lot of things going on the AOCA are at the moment but it will blow over God willing.

 

[Barky]

Lord have mercy. My friend who is studying at Vlad's is not happy at all about this.

 

[vanshan]

From one report, it's not the first time Met. Phillip has done this. Does he have a pope-complex? Lord have mercy.

Basil

 

[Damaris]

This is the least scandalous thing I've ever heard.

The post from ochlophobist was disrespectful and rude. To call an Orthodox Hierarch Anaxios over this little squabble is rather disgusting.

What's disgusting is what Metropolitan PHILIP has done to protect and empower himself. Abusing innocent seminarians to try to blackmail brother bishops into canonically disciplining an innocent layman is just the tip of the iceberg.

I do not think it oversteps the proper position of a layman to observe what he has done, and call him anaxios, reporting him to the Synod as one who has acted in such a way that he may no longer be worthy to be a bishop.

 

[vanshan]

We must remember that the Orthodox hierarchical structure isn't the same as the deviated form of authoritarian rule we see in the Roman Catholic Church or other groups. A bishop is to be honored for his position in Christ, but he isn't a pope. We bow and kiss his hand, because of the office he fills, not from any power he holds over us. It is good to be humble and submit to the spiritual stewardship of our clergy, even when we don't understand or agree with their decisions, but it is also important for us to hold them accountable when we clearly see them abusing their position.

Conciliar rule within the Church requires participation of the laity to uphold the traditions of Christ. Our role is as vital at that of our hierarchs, and in various historic events the laity have helped steer the church away from false-unions and heresy by their outspoken objections against mistakes make by some bishops. All bishops aren't saints, and face the same temptations that threaten us all.

If Met. Philip is abusing his position, attempting to elevate himself to a pope-like status, rather than lowering himself to the position of servant of all within his bishopric and synod, he should be censured and potentially deposed for the protection of the Church, because, if he is guilty of such unbecoming behavior, it can scandalize individuals and may push some away from the Church. I have heard negative rumors about him over the years, though I can't say I place full confidence in them, but his synod needs to consider it's responsibility to protect Christ's flock in their care, and take the steps to depose Met. Philip, if they find he is guilty of wrong-doing.

Basil

 

[Joshua G.]

They don't matter. This is sad news but I think everything will be fine. The problem is with Metropolitan Philip and the OCA, not the whole Archdiocese since Metropolitan Jonah, Archbishop Nathaniel, and Bishop Mark of Toledo (AOCA) concelebrated together on the Dormition at the Dormition Monastery in Michigan which I attended and Met. Jonah during his sermon said that despite rediculous arguments between all the jurisdictions, we are all one faith. This whole event is very dumb as are a lot of things going on the AOCA are at the moment but it will blow over God willing.

I was just going to post this very thing in response Andrew. Almost verbatum. I was there with my wife and son too!

Joshua

 

[Joshua G.]

Oh no guys. This is terrible. We must not talk about our hierarchs this way. I don't like what I am seeing either, but seriously, this is not about the substance of the faith. He is not saying that we cannot concelebrate. He is just educating his preists elsewhere and at a find instution of godly learning at that. Let us not abuse the position the lay people are afforded by God in the Church taht is stifled in the RCC. While we are not Catholics, we are also not protestants who protest at any turn and speak out against their own Church anytime they disagree with what an Authority figure has said.

May God bless all of our hierarchs and Axios to all of them who have not betrayed the faithful. Met PHILIP has not betrayed the faithful. He has made an administrative decision which is very unpopular. From there, all we can do is speculate and your speculation being right or wrong cannot bring you or anyone one step further to God, but CAN take you steps AWAY from God because of what htis anger can do to your soul. I have to wonder in all sincerity if most people here would be AS offended if he were to pull all of his seminarians out of Holy Cross and put them in St. Vlad's and Tikhon's. Oh well, that's none of my business.

I have been thinking lately that it is an increasing "duty" (for lack of a better word) for us Christians in North America to pray for all of the cheif hierarchs representing the faithful in North America. Not that they do this or that, but just pray for their protection, comfort and wisdom. I say this not only for their benefit, but chiefly and most immediately for our own, because we can only get over our bitterness and hurt feelings by praying for those who we feel have wronged or are wronging us.

God bless,

Joshua

 

[jckstraw72]

thats funny -- 2 yrs ago when he gave the address at St. Tikhon's' graduation he said he'd be sending all his seminarians there.

 

[vanshan]

I'm not saying Met. Philip is necessarily guilty of any wrong-doing, but if he is, it is right for something to be done about it, for the love of Christ's Church. Certainly our hierarchs and clergy need our prayers, more than criticisms, and we should not spread rumors or proudly act like we are judges over them--by no means, but we must be sober and use the appropriate canonical processes to stop abuse, when it does occur.

One humble bishop described his postion as being at the bottom of an inverted triange. The priests and laymen he served were above him and he perceived his duty to be the servant of everyone. I believe this is the appropriate role of bishop, following Christ's own example of humility.

One important think I learned when first becoming Orthodox was to not get too upset over squabbles between different national churches and jurisdictions. The Church will always have unrest, given man's fallen condition, but we see the power of the Holy Spirit calm dissentions and preserves the Church despite our weakness. We've been brought through much greater trials than this. Thanks be to God!

Basil

 

[Kristos]

do you guys have any actual first hand knowledge about what +Philip did? Or are you just going by ocanews? I wouldn't trust ocanews. I know for a fact that he has posted incorrect and inflammatory reports in the past. The name is ironic - Orthodox Christians for Accountability - but for some reason Mark Stokoe doesn't think he is accountable for publishing lies. Apparently it only applies to other people...

 

[Joshua G.]

ANd I don't really understand why what was allegedly done is considered so morally wrong. Just because it's not popular means we should be suspicious of him? IF this is true as alleged then so be it. that's his right as their bishop. This isn't a pope-like move. It's a bishop-like move. And, it's purely administrative having nothing to do with the faith of the Fathers for good or bad.

Joshua

 

[Protoevangel]

Statement Issued by Metropolitan's Office Regarding Placement of Antiochian Seminarians

From the Office of Metropolitan PHILIP:

Unfortunately, there has been much speculation and incorrect information on the Internet and elsewhere regarding our recent decision to send our incoming seminarians to Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology. This decision effected two students. The third new student was already planning to attend Holy Cross. Over the years we have tried to keep a balance between the distribution of our seminarians to various Orthodox seminaries here and abroad, especially St. Vladimir’s, St. Tikhon’s and Holy Cross. In fact, this year, we will have 10 students at St. Vladimir’s, 9 students at St. Tikhon’s and 6 students at Holy Cross.

It has been our primary concern over the years to insure a strong priestly formation for our future priests. While all three schools have helped us in accomplishing this task for generations of clergymen, we feel Holy Cross most closely mirrors the practices and customs of the Patriarchate of Antioch in general and the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America in particular. This is true for a variety of reasons, first and foremost being the common Syro-Byzantine liturgical and musical tradition that we share. Given the changing demographics of the majority of our seminarians and the reality that many of them are not rooted in this Syro-Byzantine expression of our one Orthodox faith from birth, we feel it is vital to immerse them in this tradition in a more complete way. It is our hope to have our own seminary in the future. In fact, much of the foundational work has already been done. Nevertheless, since we do not have our own seminary at this point in time, we feel Holy Cross is best suited to accomplish the task at hand.

At the same time, however, we will and have always assessed the common needs and concerns of both the seminarians and the Archdiocese and therefore leave all doors open for the future with regard to their placement.

.