Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's?

[Godchsr]

In light of evil usage of tax dollars: Are Jesus' words contextual here?

 

[freeport]

In light of evil usage of tax dollars: Are Jesus' words contextual here?

No.

It is not your place to judge rightful authorities put over your head: consider how wicked the Jewish and Roman authorities were at the time Jesus said this. And if that does not persuade you remember the Romans killed countless Christians, yet Christians still knew to pay their taxes.

The authorities should have no valid complaint against any Christian.

As for taxes being too high, are they? Yes, they are. But that is a matter of Democracy and God's will.

 

[ebia]

In light of evil usage of tax dollars: Are Jesus' words contextual here?

The conversation between Jesus and the temple authorities has nothing whatsoever to do with taxes

 

[GarryJr]

Rom 13:1-8 MKJV
[1] Let every soul be subject to the higher authorities. For there is no authority but of God; the authorities that exist are ordained by God.
[2] So that the one resisting the authority resists the ordinance of God; and the ones who resist will receive judgment to themselves.
[3] For the rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the bad. And do you desire to be not afraid of the authority? Do the good, and you shall have praise from it.
[4] For it is a servant of God to you for good. For if you practice evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword in vain; for it is a servant of God, a revenger for wrath on him who does evil.
[5] Therefore you must be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience' sake.
[6] For because of this you also pay taxes. For they are God's servants, always giving attention to this very thing.
[7] Therefore give to all their dues; to the one due tax, the tax; tribute to whom tribute is due, fear to whom fear is due, and honor to whom honor is due.
[8] Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves another has fulfilled the Law.

but this one does

 

[Godchsr]

Rom 13:1-8 MKJV
[1] Let every soul be subject to the higher authorities. For there is no authority but of God; the authorities that exist are ordained by God.
[2] So that the one resisting the authority resists the ordinance of God; and the ones who resist will receive judgment to themselves.
[3] For the rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the bad. And do you desire to be not afraid of the authority? Do the good, and you shall have praise from it.
[4] For it is a servant of God to you for good. For if you practice evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword in vain; for it is a servant of God, a revenger for wrath on him who does evil.
[5] Therefore you must be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience' sake.
[6] For because of this you also pay taxes. For they are God's servants, always giving attention to this very thing.
[7] Therefore give to all their dues; to the one due tax, the tax; tribute to whom tribute is due, fear to whom fear is due, and honor to whom honor is due.
[8] Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves another has fulfilled the Law.

but this one does

So why have war?

Maybe the American black slaves never should have been more grateful?

Maybe the Jews should have shut up and stepped into Nazi ovens themselves?

Here's a good one... maybe we should accept The New World order and take the mark of beast when the time comes??? Right I mean because what you said is...
OK so obviously your verses quotes contextual ONLY.

EDIT... I thought of one more: Children obey your parents... and let Daddy molest you???
AGAIN these Biblical words were contextual.

 

[Godchsr]

No.

It is not your place to judge rightful authorities put over your head: consider how wicked the Jewish and Roman authorities were at the time Jesus said this. And if that does not persuade you remember the Romans killed countless Christians, yet Christians still knew to pay their taxes.

The authorities should have no valid complaint against any Christian.

As for taxes being too high, are they? Yes, they are. But that is a matter of Democracy and God's will.

For the record: I'm not talking about high taxes, I'm talking about EVIL taxes.
Still you answered that, so in light of your answer: How do we resolve the fact that at times the Jews were told by God to 'utterly destroy' other nations who were evil?

 

[meadowlark]

7Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Taxes to whom taxes are due. who killed Jesus (Romans)
Custom goes to custom who also killed Jesus (Greek)
Fear to whom fear is due who also killed Jesus (religoin)


And honor to whom honor is due (God)

 

[mont974x4]

You can, and should, vote to make changes to how caesar robs..er...taxes you. IMO, it is a matter of stewardship. Pay your taxes according to the law, but work within legal means to have a more godly system.

 

[ebia]

For the record: I'm not talking about high taxes, I'm talking about EVIL taxes.

What on earth constitutes an evil tax?

 

[wayseer]

What on earth constitutes an evil tax?

An evil war as I understand the argument.

Godchsr - Jesus was not talking about taxes.

 

[freeport]

For the record: I'm not talking about high taxes, I'm talking about EVIL taxes.
Still you answered that, so in light of your answer: How do we resolve the fact that at times the Jews were told by God to 'utterly destroy' other nations who were evil?

"You were told to 'hate your enemies', but I tell you to love your enemies and do good to them"...

Remember that line?

Our kingdom is not of this world.

It sure will be.

In the meantime, strive to be lawful.


And pray patiently for God to bring His Kingdom to earth as it is in Heaven.

'We are not leading a rebellion here'.


Nor should anyone give the authorities a reason to think we are.

Just as it has been since day one.


Don't think things will stay this way forever, but "'not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit', sayeth the Lord".

And that change: I expect it to happen sooner then later.

No way will things remain the way they are for long.

 

[AngelusSax]

I once heard that money was exchanged when going into the temple courtyard. Basically, Roman money was echanged for other money that did not have Caesar on it (think of today, when travelling from Mexico to the USA, one might exchange currency to accomodate their destination country).

When Jesus had the Pharisees pull out a coin and it had Caesar on it, it showed them to be hypocritical. They had kept Roman money, which was "no good" there for offerings to God. I'm sure there were other points (one might argue that since everything is God's ultimately, then Jesus was really saying not to give anything to Caesar, though I doubt that is a correct assessment) as well, but that aspect I had not heard until a year or so ago, and thought it was quite interesting.

 

[Godchsr]

"You were told to 'hate your enemies', but I tell you to love your enemies and do good to them"...

Remember that line?

Our kingdom is not of this world.

It sure will be.

In the meantime, strive to be lawful.


And pray patiently for God to bring His Kingdom to earth as it is in Heaven.

'We are not leading a rebellion here'.


Nor should anyone give the authorities a reason to think we are.

Just as it has been since day one.


Don't think things will stay this way forever, but "'not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit', sayeth the Lord".

And that change: I expect it to happen sooner then later.

No way will things remain the way they are for long.

Thank You for your response.

You've said twice now that Jesus was not talking about taxes... what was he then? (I always assumed this I suppose)

 

[Godchsr]

An evil war as I understand the argument.

Not necessarily but that may be the case... assuming I was a Christian living in Nazi Germany would it have been wrong for me to resist the Government?

(My personal struggle is trying to resolve the potential for State sponsored abortions with tax dollars)

 

[dies-l]

Not necessarily but that may be the case... assuming I was a Christian living in Nazi Germany would it have been wrong for me to resist the Government?

(My personal struggle is trying to resolve the potential for State sponsored abortions with tax dollars)

All Scripture is contextual, meaning it should be viewed and interepted with consideration given to it literary, historical, and social context. This does not, however, give us license to simply disregard passages we don't like on the basis that it belongs to a different context. Rather it means that we look at the context in which the words were written and/or spoken and determine how they apply to our own context.

The immediate context in which Jesus spoke these words can described as follows: The Pharisees and the Herodians were looking to trap Jesus by enticing him to speak out against Roman rule. Presumably, they didn't like him all that much and thought that he would be easier to be rid of if they got him to antagonize the Roman authorities. Likewise, if he appeared overly pro-Roman, the Pharisees would likely bring anti-Roman Jews, such as the Zealots to their side. So, they ask him if it is permissible to pay taxes to Rome, figuring that either way he answers the question, he will gain a new enemy (either the Romans, which would be ideal for the Pharisees cause, or the zealots and the run-of-the-mill Jew who was angry over the Roman occupation). So, Jesus answers the question by pointing out the obvious. The money is minted by the Roman government, its worth is derived from the authority of the Roman government, anbd it has visible indicia of Roman authority on it. Therefore, for all intents and purposes, Roman money is Roman, and if the Roman goverment wants some of it back, then it is theirs to take.

Further, the historcial context suggests that the Roman government, especially when the Gospels were written was highly antagonistic to both the Jewish and the Christian causes. This is the governement that, in A.D. 70 destroyed the temple in Jerusalem. This is also the government that several hundred years earlier had installed Pagan idole worship, and all the abominable practices that accompanied it, in the Jerusalem temple over the objection of the Jewish people. This is also the Roman government that was responsible for much of the persecution and martyrdom of the early Church. The Roman government was infamous throughout the world for its brutality toward anyone who objected to its authority. Clearly, therefore, it does not seem that Jesus is saying, "since we have a pretty godly government here, we really ought to pay taxes."

In fact, he seems to be saying that the Roman government's evil did not negate the duty to pay taxes. His reasoning suggests that this is because money is essentially only of worldly import. Its value comes from human authorities, and so it essentially belongs in the realm of those human authorites. This does not mean that we cannot use the money to invest in the Kingdom. However, it does suggest that, our first and foremost responsibility with money is to whatever human authority gives it its value. If that authority demands a certain amount of it back, we cannot piously, no matter how evil the government may be (and I suggest that the evils of the U.S. government pale in comparison to those of the Romans), refuse this worldly obligation. The only way, therefore, to be free of this obligation is to refuse to participate in the monetary system of whatever authority we choose not to pay taxes to. We could choose to return to a bartering system or some other non-monetary based economic system, and the argument against taxation would be stronger. However, so long as we accept the benefits of a government backed monetary system, we owe to that government whatever of its own money it demands of us.

Fortunately, we live in a country that allows us to substantially decrease our taxation through wise decision-making and giving to support the Church and other causes that we care about. There are numerous legal and ethical ways to divert money away from the Federal government and towards the work of the Church, which I do not have time (or the comprehensive knowledge) to get into here. The most obvious is the use of tax deductions of our tithes and offerings. There are others that are more complicated. The point is that our government allows and even encourages us to give to the Church and other charitable organziations at its own expense.

 

[2ndRateMind]

There are 'good' taxes. There are 'evil' taxes. On the whole, I think people should abide by the democratic process, and live with what society decides is 'good' and 'evil'. Every so often though, conscience rebels. Provided that the individual is prepared to live with the consequences of that rebellion, then the individual should consider it not just his freedom, but his duty, to rebel, and retain his tax.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

 

[freeport]

Thank You for your response.

You've said twice now that Jesus was not talking about taxes... what was he then? (I always assumed this I suppose)

Can you please address directly the quotes you are speaking of which you disagree with or are wondering about?


I will state that I believe this is a legitimate government. Many errors, but a legitimate government. I am eager to see those errors corrected, but through all lawfulness, so no one can accuse us of breaking the Law. And why should we do otherwise, is not the Spirit of God mighty for change?

Some have talked about "when is it legitimate to rebel" and I saw at least one mention what would have happened under Hitler's regime.

But, we are to preach the Gospel in power. Why has it so lost its' power that people no longer have confidence in it for changing the world?

It most surely has not, but people are turning aside from it.

We are to do as the martyrs have done, and what is within our Christian rights to do. If it was man's law to say, "You can not speak the truth", we would speak the truth anyway, for God's law is higher then man's law and this is the very example set by Jesus, the prophets, and the apostles.


Today, is different and you are right to think that: for we live in a nation that has God's Name on it, and on her founding.

Now we know anyone who takes God's Name as a shelter is responsible for that Name. They are no longer that which might be judged by man alone, but they are under the umbrella of the Church - the true Church - which is the Body of Believers through Jesus Christ, invisible and indivisible by the Spirit. Wherever they are.

As Scripture states, and we might take metaphorically, 'scattered through out the nations' or metaphorically, 'in Babylon', so it is cried, 'come out of Babylon, my people, rebuild'.


However, the guns and swords I trust in are the words of God. God allows what is allowed, does anything happen which God has not allowed or lifted His hand from? If we are under duress here is it not because God has turned His face?

And I am speaking there metaphorically: we should be law abiding citizens. Therefore, we must pay our taxes as are required by us by God.

Should we seek to change the world? Moreso, we should actually believe we can change the world. What can be done without faith?

But make no mistake: there is democracy and then there is totalitarianism. There are many nations on this planet which are under tyranny where Christians are sorely persecuted and the Christian message is either directly or indirectly banned.

Do those nations have the right to usurp God? Absolutely not.

We all know the wicked one is written of as 'a tyrant', and that Hitler and Stalin were children of the Devil: so, too, are any nations that embrace not freedom but tyranny.


What America and other Free World, Christian majority nations need, is a purification, a return, is my stance.

And the rest of the world which holds so dearly to doctrines of the Devil need a whip.


But this is not by might of fleshly armies nor power as in worldly power, but by Spirit: by the Word of God.

That is where I am coming from on these matters.

 

[freeport]

Not necessarily but that may be the case... assuming I was a Christian living in Nazi Germany would it have been wrong for me to resist the Government?

(My personal struggle is trying to resolve the potential for State sponsored abortions with tax dollars)

Any manner of "potential" is but to be treated as a "rumor". I hear of rumors of what the "government might do" or what "the far left" is doing or the "far right" everyday.

You know we do not need to listen to rumors. Watch them, sure, but remember this: if the government does something which is horrendous, do you seriously think the people would stand for that? Through the natural political process, it would be a horrible division. The public outcry would be tremendous.

What then is there to worry about? Is God powerless that we must break laws or take up fleshly arms to defend Him?

If the administration - or anyone - decides to flagrantly violate the will of God so it is noxious in the Church's breath, they shall surely not stand.

These sorts of things you hear about "maybe passing" or being discussed would be a political nuclear bomb. They would have to be completely stupid to do that.

And maybe they would be! But, why should we fret?


The word of God is with power: it is by words and miracles we act, not by breaking laws or using fleshly weapons.

That is not because we are powerless. Far from it. But we are powerless when we do not seek to understand that great power the Lord gives us: not fleshly power, but power in the Spirit.

 

[freeport]

I once heard that money was exchanged when going into the temple courtyard. Basically, Roman money was echanged for other money that did not have Caesar on it (think of today, when travelling from Mexico to the USA, one might exchange currency to accomodate their destination country).

When Jesus had the Pharisees pull out a coin and it had Caesar on it, it showed them to be hypocritical. They had kept Roman money, which was "no good" there for offerings to God. I'm sure there were other points (one might argue that since everything is God's ultimately, then Jesus was really saying not to give anything to Caesar, though I doubt that is a correct assessment) as well, but that aspect I had not heard until a year or so ago, and thought it was quite interesting.

No, Jesus was clearly saying to pay one's taxes.

And there are further admonishes from the Apostles to respect the authorities, for God put them in place.


We should never attempt to twist the plain and obvious meaning of Christ's words, though you show you know this.

 

[ebia]

I once heard that money was exchanged when going into the temple courtyard. Basically, Roman money was echanged for other money that did not have Caesar on it (think of today, when travelling from Mexico to the USA, one might exchange currency to accomodate their destination country).

When Jesus had the Pharisees pull out a coin and it had Caesar on it, it showed them to be hypocritical. They had kept Roman money, which was "no good" there for offerings to God. I'm sure there were other points (one might argue that since everything is God's ultimately, then Jesus was really saying not to give anything to Caesar, though I doubt that is a correct assessment) as well, but that aspect I had not heard until a year or so ago, and thought it was quite interesting.

Yep. Strictly they shouldn't be carrying Roman money, because it has a person's image on it (Tiberius Caesar) - not only that, but it will have stamped around the edge "Tiberius son of the divine"! By making them produce such a coin Jesus has embarrised them, and raised a big question about what is Caesar's and what is God's when Caesar claims to be god. His final response "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's" will also have carried echos of some of the earlier failed messiahs and martyrs calls on their death to give Caesar what he deserved - it's a coded revolutionary remark - suffiently coded and ambiguous to be unusable in a trial but clear enough for those with ears to hear.

Like lots of Jesus' answers, it doesn't give you the answer in the back of the book, but raises the questions you need to think about.