Good reason to be an atheist?(moved from Christian Appologetics)

[Penumbra]

This is an example of a Strawman argument. Because you do not know if before the fall the scorpion had venom in its tail. To say that it did would be illogical because you do not know this.

So did the venom form itself? Did it do this over time?

Did the scorpion....evolve?

Isn't that what you've been arguing against for this entire thread?

-Lyn

 

[PT Calvinist]

On another note, it is remarkable to me that most Christians seem to define the most creative act of the universe as the fall. After all, it added stingers to scorpion's tails and changed the enzymes in carnivore's stomachs, etc.

What approach is this? it sounds familiar...

Anyways......WingsOfEagles.....How do you, a single creationsist, defend against an onslaught of Evolutionists? Just wondering..

 

[WingsOfEagles07]

So did the venom form itself? Did it do this over time?

Did the scorpion....evolve?

Isn't that what you've been arguing against for this entire thread?

-Lyn

The scorpion did not evolve, and I didn't say it "was" a strawman argument, I said it was "like" one not "was" ... Reread before you post something.

And like many evolutionists I am not afraid to say I don't know, but what I do know is that GOD designed its purpose for a reason, I mean the venom could have been there before the fall, but it also could not have been, Idk, I just know it has a purpose, just like Humans, we have a purpose.

 

[Tinker Grey]

This is an example of a Strawman argument. Because you do not know if before the fall the scorpion had venom in its tail. To say that it did would be illogical because you do not know this.

{Emphasis Added}

The scorpion did not evolve, and I didn't say it "was" a strawman argument, I said it was "like" one not "was" ... Reread before you post something.

Read your own post.

 

[PT Calvinist]

{Emphasis Added}

Do you consider Subjective Absolutes?

 

[WingsOfEagles07]

{Emphasis Added}



Read your own post.

Well, who cares? Not me, I mean I am fallible I make mistakes don't we Calvinist. I mean I must have just been thinking i said that. I don't have perfect memory with perfect grammar. Well, I mean should we even if we "supposively" get our brain from random chance processes, lol.

 

[SuperPhil]

Shoot, thought I had reached the end... Hey Isambard, hopefully you still are watching this thread.

@Isambard - You know why you aren't able to understand any of this? Because you are trying to rationally explain a perfect, omnipresent, and Majestic God.

I get all my wisdom from Christ and Christ alone. Therefore, if you don't believe that Christ exists, you will not be able to understand how and why the Lord did and said what he did.

The Lord gives his Children the knowledge of himself! Seeing as you are professing to be an atheist, it only seems logical that you WON'T understand. It just seems to be a huge waste to me to see you try and discredit something you have absolutely no God-given knowledge about?!

 

[PT Calvinist]

So did the venom form itself? Did it do this over time?

Did the scorpion....evolve?

Isn't that what you've been arguing against for this entire thread?

-Lyn

Theistic Evolutionist?
www.creationism.org

 

[PT Calvinist]

Shoot, thought I had reached the end... Hey Isambard, hopefully you still are watching this thread.

@Isambard - You know why you aren't able to understand any of this? Because you are trying to rationally explain a perfect, omnipresent, and Majestic God.

I get all my wisdom from Christ and Christ alone. Therefore, if you don't believe that Christ exists, you will not be able to understand how and why the Lord did and said what he did.

The Lord gives his Children the knowledge of himself! Seeing as you are professing to be an atheist, it only seems logical that you WON'T understand. It just seems to be a huge waste to me to see you try and discredit something you have absolutely no God-given knowledge about?!

Nice post SuperPhil

Check out your post number

 

[Isambard]

@Isambard - You know why you aren't able to understand any of this? Because you are trying to rationally explain a perfect, omnipresent, and Majestic God.

I get all my wisdom from Christ and Christ alone. Therefore, if you don't believe that Christ exists, you will not be able to understand how and why the Lord did and said what he did.

So you need to believe in Jesus/Christianity for it to make sense eh? That doesn't sound like circular logic to you?

The Lord gives his Children the knowledge of himself! Seeing as you are professing to be an atheist, it only seems logical that you WON'T understand. It just seems to be a huge waste to me to see you try and discredit something you have absolutely no God-given knowledge about?!

Most atheists (in the west) are former christians. I fall into this category. My faith died when I realized that my faith was riddled with contradictions. The inability to give a coherent definition of God was my attempt to demonstrate this.

 

[SuperPhil]

So you need to believe in Jesus/Christianity for it to make sense eh? That doesn't sound like circular logic to you?

Huh? I was saying that you won't be able to explain or even understand what is being said here unless that knowledge comes from Christ.

Most atheists (in the west) are former christians. I fall into this category. My faith died when I realized that my faith was riddled with contradictions.

Contradictions? I don't want to get into that, that's a doorway into fruitless arguing - but from my own experience, Christ has NEVER given me a reason to doubt him.

The inability to give a coherent definition of God was my attempt to demonstrate this.

You tried to rationally define the supernatural. I would have lost "faith" too.

2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter;
to search out a matter is the glory of kings.

Proverbs 25:2

 

[hikersong]

I get all my wisdom from Christ and Christ alone. Therefore, if you don't believe that Christ exists, you will not be able to understand...

There are words for this sort of argument, but I don't want to get deleted again...

...here's a not so new discovery...there are limits to my patience.

Nice post SuperPhil

I see that you're easily impressed PT?

 

[Penumbra]

The scorpion did not evolve, and I didn't say it "was" a strawman argument, I said it was "like" one not "was" ... Reread before you post something.

You ask me to reread before I post when I didn't even mention a word about a strawman argument. Tinker Grey did, not me. This shows you misread. Then when Tinker Grey confronts you with your own words, you back up and say, "Who cares?".

Take a deep breath...and let's continue.

And like many evolutionists I am not afraid to say I don't know, but what I do know is that GOD designed its purpose for a reason, I mean the venom could have been there before the fall, but it also could not have been, Idk, I just know it has a purpose, just like Humans, we have a purpose.

You've been spending so much time arguing against evolution, but when asked a simple question, you admit a lack of knowledge.

Why not just cut a step out and admit lack of knowledge from the start, and then go acquire knowledge by reading about the history of our planet with an open mind?

You're presenting claims about god making individual creatures, but when asked questions about certain creatures like carnivores or scorpions, you're speechless. You wonder why people won't accept your view when it is not consistent. I've been very calm with you asking you questions while you've been accusatory. If you can provide a consistent response I'm glad to hear it, but right now this doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

-Lyn

 

[Isambard]

Huh? I was saying that you won't be able to explain or even understand what is being said here unless that knowledge comes from Christ.

Which comes from alright knowing Christ according to you. This is what is known as a circular argument.

You tried to rationally define the supernatural. I would have lost "faith" too.

2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter;
to search out a matter is the glory of kings.

Proverbs 25:2

So you agree then that God cannot be said to be any of things that 2Kings decribed him to be? ie. God is love, God is light, God is most merciful, God is holy etc. ?

 

[WingsOfEagles07]

You ask me to reread before I post when I didn't even mention a word about a strawman argument. Tinker Grey did, not me. This shows you misread. Then when Tinker Grey confronts you with your own words, you back up and say, "Who cares?".

Take a deep breath...and let's continue.

You've been spending so much time arguing against evolution, but when asked a simple question, you admit a lack of knowledge.

Why not just cut a step out and admit lack of knowledge from the start, and then go acquire knowledge by reading about the history of our planet with an open mind?

You're presenting claims about god making individual creatures, but when asked questions about certain creatures like carnivores or scorpions, you're speechless. You wonder why people won't accept your view when it is not consistent. I've been very calm with you asking you questions while you've been accusatory. If you can provide a consistent response I'm glad to hear it, but right now this doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

-Lyn

No not a lack of knowledge because you cannot prove to me scorpions had venom before the fall. All you know is that they had them after the fall. Besides, I said I didn't know I never stated what I think about the issue, You think you are being smart and disproving the worldview of a Creationist. Well you are wrong, I mean, You all have no basis of the big bang or the soup that created all living creatures because no one was there to observe these events. We all have the same evidence and evolutionists interpret the evidence according to their own worldview and they assume what happened to be true without 100% certainty it is actually true, so you therefore cannot claim that this is how the universe has came to be, and how life came to be because these are just assumptions of a scientists who was not there and only supported by the beliefs of others with no basic foundation of why this is true. Even if Scorpions did have venom before the fall, They did not use it for anything. Then why would GOD create a creature with poisoning venom, Why don't you try something new and try something new, and do not deny the deity of CHRIST and His authortative power of whuch everything was created, and receive the gift of eternal life because you can change according to 2 Corinthians 5:17 but since, There is a GOD who is smarter than human beings, this cannot be true to evolutionists because nothing can be smarter than humans. But I can tell you that someone was and that is JESUS CHRIST our LORD. You know why? Who created life forms? I have read that us (humans) are trying to create a human being. First off, humans cannot create a human being, if they did that would not be creating a human being that would "re-creating" a human being because humans already exist. Tell me one thing, how has the tree's of the world evolved? Just wondering and where is the evidence of this to support such claims. You think you have proved the deity of Christ wrong because of one simple yet complex animal or reptile? No, that is wrong. You cannot interpret any evidence or even know the deity of CHRIST if you have the worldview of evolutionists because evolutionists look at evidence through the evolutionary glasses, in which when interpreted by evolutionists they do not have any kind of logical explanations of why the assumptions they make are true because they're only true by the beliefs of man, which are fallible, but the basis of creationism is not fallible because the evidence and the way we interpret it, lines up correctly with the bible. Amen & Amen! Praise The LORD ON HIGH who hath CREATED all things on earth and the galaxies, JESUS your the only one who can do such things and call it, " VERY GOOD "

 

[WingsOfEagles07]

Shoot, thought I had reached the end... Hey Isambard, hopefully you still are watching this thread.

@Isambard - You know why you aren't able to understand any of this? Because you are trying to rationally explain a perfect, omnipresent, and Majestic God.

I get all my wisdom from Christ and Christ alone. Therefore, if you don't believe that Christ exists, you will not be able to understand how and why the Lord did and said what he did.

The Lord gives his Children the knowledge of himself! Seeing as you are professing to be an atheist, it only seems logical that you WON'T understand. It just seems to be a huge waste to me to see you try and discredit something you have absolutely no God-given knowledge about?!

Nice posts Super Phil, I read the one after this also. GOD Bless You, and what if PT is impressed?? (Talking to Hiker) I am impressed to his ability to make such statements against "Isambard".. God Bless You Brother in CHRIST!

 

[Penumbra]

No not a lack of knowledge because you cannot prove to me scorpions had venom before the fall. All you know is that they had them after the fall.

Actually, my question doesn't assume scorpions had venom prior to the fall.

If they did have venom before the fall, my question is why? What purpose does venom have in a world without suffering?

If they did not have venom before the fall but do now, my question is, how did this develop? By evolution?

Besides, I said I didn't know I never stated what I think about the issue, You think you are being smart and disproving the worldview of a Creationist. Well you are wrong, I mean, You all have no basis of the big bang or the soup that created all living creatures because no one was there to observe these events. We all have the same evidence and evolutionists interpret the evidence according to their own worldview and they assume what happened to be true without 100% certainty it is actually true, so you therefore cannot claim that this is how the universe has came to be, and how life came to be because these are just assumptions of a scientists who was not there and only supported by the beliefs of others with no basic foundation of why this is true. Even if Scorpions did have venom before the fall, They did not use it for anything. Then why would GOD create a creature with poisoning venom, Why don't you try something new and try something new, and do not deny the deity of CHRIST and His authortative power of whuch everything was created, and receive the gift of eternal life because you can change according to 2 Corinthians 5:17 but since, There is a GOD who is smarter than human beings, this cannot be true to evolutionists because nothing can be smarter than humans. But I can tell you that someone was and that is JESUS CHRIST our LORD. You know why? Who created life forms? I have read that us (humans) are trying to create a human being. First off, humans cannot create a human being, if they did that would not be creating a human being that would "re-creating" a human being because humans already exist. Tell me one thing, how has the tree's of the world evolved? Just wondering and where is the evidence of this to support such claims. You think you have proved the deity of Christ wrong because of one simple yet complex animal or reptile? No, that is wrong. You cannot interpret any evidence or even know the deity of CHRIST if you have the worldview of evolutionists because evolutionists look at evidence through the evolutionary glasses, in which when interpreted by evolutionists they do not have any kind of logical explanations of why the assumptions they make are true because they're only true by the beliefs of man, which are fallible, but the basis of creationism is not fallible because the evidence and the way we interpret it, lines up correctly with the bible. Amen & Amen! Praise The LORD ON HIGH who hath CREATED all things on earth and the galaxies, JESUS your the only one who can do such things and call it, " VERY GOOD "

100% of this is completely unrelated to my question.

Evolution has support.

-Microevolution is observed.
-Fossils of dead creatures are found predating mankind by many, many orders of magnitude.
-Genetics can explain changes in creatures.
-Geology, a science completely unrelated to biology, shows an Earth billions of years old.
-Astronomy, a science completely unrelated to biology, shows a universe billions of years old.

I mean, even if scientists had nothing more than fossils of dead creatures that pre-date mankind, that completely disputes Christian creationism. But not only do they have those, they have everything on that list.

Yet when I ask you to look around at the world- see the tail and venom of the scorpion, the elaborate hunting strategy of a spider, the teeth, claws, and digestive systems of the countless carnivores, the existence of parasitic organisms like tapeworms, and explain to me how any of this coincides with creationism, you don't have an answer. It's not your specific fault you don't have an answer, because the worldview itself lacks an answer, and ignores any evidence showing that it is wrong instead of dealing with and answering that evidence.

-Lyn

 

[WingsOfEagles07]

Actually, my question doesn't assume scorpions had venom prior to the fall.

If they did have venom before the fall, my question is why? What purpose does venom have in a world without suffering?

If they did not have venom before the fall but do now, my question is, how did this develop? By evolution?


100% of this is completely unrelated to my question.

Evolution has support.

-Microevolution is observed.
-Fossils of dead creatures are found predating mankind by many, many orders of magnitude.
-Genetics can explain changes in creatures.
-Geology, a science completely unrelated to biology, shows an Earth billions of years old.
-Astronomy, a science completely unrelated to biology, shows a universe billions of years old.

I mean, even if scientists had nothing more than fossils of dead creatures that pre-date mankind, that completely disputes Christian creationism. But not only do they have those, they have everything on that list.

Yet when I ask you to look around at the world- see the tail and venom of the scorpion, the elaborate hunting strategy of a spider, the teeth, claws, and digestive systems of the countless carnivores, the existence of parasitic organisms like tapeworms, and explain to me how any of this coincides with creationism, you don't have an answer. It's not your specific fault you don't have an answer, because the worldview itself lacks an answer, and ignores any evidence showing that it is wrong instead of dealing with and answering that evidence.

-Lyn

Yes I do have an answer, JESUS has created every creature every creeping thing, read the account of Genesis, he has created everything in the world, and My paragraph before this explains how evolution cannot be trusted by the methods and claims you just posted.

" -Fossils of dead creatures are found predating mankind by many, many orders of magnitude. "

Tell me how accurate this is? And there is new scientific evidence that these methods are not accurate like ; Carbon dating it is not accurate. This also proves nothing, because you have that evidence well so do we, we all have the same fossils, Both worldview's interpret them different it is only that the evolutionary worldview has no basis for such claims except human beliefs of assumptions of people who were not there.

"-Genetics can explain changes in creatures."

Changes in variation, not evolution. You cannot say that a human being has evolved by the fossils of earlier creature, because evolution only happens over a basis of millions/billions of years, and by then DNA could not survive that length of time. Just because one small bird, and another bird medium size has some DNA that is similar does not mean that they are connected within each other by evolving.

" " -Geology, a science completely unrelated to biology, shows an Earth billions of years old.
-Astronomy, a science completely unrelated to biology, shows a universe billions of years old. " "

Show me some evidence of such claims that does not evolve around human beliefs of who was not there. Plus, Dinosaurs that Evolution claims to be billions of years old, is false information because scientists have found DNA in the bones of them, and this shows that they cannot exists millions of years. To say the past is millions of years is only the belief of a scientists supported by so-called "evidence" and human beliefs which since it is so well supported it is called "fact" whenever we do not know 100% sure it really is because no one was there billions of years ago. I mean if there was tell me who. Evolution is just a hoax of a set of beliefs that is so well supported because they have made it persuading it is called "fact" whenever it is just "opinion" based on a scientists belief(s). Like I said, We all have the same universe, the same stars, the same planets, the same fossils, the same everything, We just perceive the evidence differently because of our worldviews the only difference is the pair of glasses we have on, Creation is based upon someone who "was" there, the LORD. Evolution is stated fact because of a theory made persuasive by the assumption of belief made by a scientist who said this happened that is based on someone who "wasn't" there therefore can be based claimed as "opinion" not fact.

Even tapeworms were created by GOD for a purpose, just because "after" the fall they have these certain things in their bodies does not mean that they got these systems by evolution. You cannot use the uniformity of nature correctly (The future is like the past) because it is a precondition of intelligibility a biblical creation principle and you do not know how to use it, and this is "like" a strawman argument because either way you are going to state "evolution" is the way whenever it is not. Just because these creature have these abilities in the present, does not mean "before" the fall they had to use there abilities. You know like vestigal(sp?) structures. but it does not matter, GOD created them read the account of Genesis.

Also, the Bible states, that each animal produces an the same animal after its own kind, like

Robin + Robin = Robin

This cannot happen : Robin + Robin = Dove.

That is what evolution states, this cannot happen then you say OHH well there are Genetics to prove that, well this proves nothing, We were not there to see us change from previous organisms to today.

P.s. - If we came from these previous creatures that supposively were like us why didn't they do science and figure this out? would that be calling them dumb? why don't they have any evidence of doing science??

 

[WingsOfEagles07]

Man, Look at how beautiful these pictures are by the amazing facts of evolution by random chance processes. Just amazing, truly is.

 

[SuperPhil]

Which comes from alright knowing Christ according to you. This is what is known as a circular argument.

I'm having a tough time following you. I'm saying you won't be able to understand the things of Christ because the wisdom and incite we have is from Christ.

I knew nothing of true Love, and absolute Holiness, until the Lord showed me it through his word.

But if you're not in his word and not conversing with him, you won't obtain this wisdom.

But it is one way - you don't need this wisdom to become a child of God, for we are drawn to Christ because of his Love and Mercy!

So you agree then that God cannot be said to be any of things that 2Kings decribed him to be? ie. God is love, God is light, God is most merciful, God is holy etc. ?

I was meaning that you tried to "huminize" an all knowing and all powerful God.

I believe that Christ is ALL those things that you wrote. But there is no way that we can understand what his Love means, or what his mercy has done for us! I can't comprehend his splendor!

8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.

Isaiah 55:8