The Full Spectrum of Christian Belief on Origins - where are you?

[marktheblake]

For those who believe in evolution, read this;
"To suppose that the eye could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree." Charles Darwin, author of "Origin of Species" the very book upon which the entire "THEORY" of Evolution is based.

That is an unwise argument to use, as it is often taken out of context, the remainder of Darwins paragraph there, is " but its true" or words to that affect.

I am still bemused by the passion of the athiest/evolutionist in their attempts to discredit the Creationist. If their 'theory' or whatever they want to call it, stands up to scrutiny as they claim, why cant they stand on it? Attacking the other side in any argument is a strong indication of weakness in ones own.

 

[Assyrian]

So your own argument is evidence of how weak your position is?

 

[marktheblake]

So your own argument is evidence of how weak your position is?

I give up, what is my argument that you refer to?

 

[johnflinst]

I have been really struggling with the whole origins story. Honestly it doesn't make sense. When Cain kills his brother, he is worried that others will kill him, but the Bible gives no explanation for where these other people came from? That is just one example that out of many other issues that are too extensive to discuss here that make it very hard for me to take the story literally.

Someone commented at the beginning of the thread discussing that after they were filled with the Holy Spirit, they had little or no doubt about believing wholely in the scriptures. Well, its has been a reverse situation for me. I was raised in the church, and was filled with the Holy Spirit many times in my youth. But as I got older, and started really reading the Bible (rather than being taught watered down/filtred stories) and researching on my own, I began to realize that were many things I had trouble blindly accepting. This created quite a crisis in my life that I still am struggling with today. To be fed all these things, and then to suddenly wake up one day and not be sure about everything you've been taught your whole life...its quite an earthshaking event.

At this point I am 25, I'm a youth leader in the church, I also lead worship for the Youth Group and from time to time on Sunday mornings. Strangely for me, worship is what makes the most sense to me. I find that I really connect with God through worship. Scripture is what I struggle with. But more and more I have been coming to terms that it is ok not to take the whole Bible literally. That I can still call myself a Christian and think this way. That has been a relieving conclusion for me. And just coming across this thread is another breathe of fresh air that there are many who are like me and who think like me.

Anyway, hope I didn't take it too off topic!

I would put myself around 7 or 8...

 

[Darkness27]

I have been really struggling with the whole origins story.

At this point I am 25, I'm a youth leader in the church, I also lead worship for the Youth Group and from time to time on Sunday mornings. Strangely for me, worship is what makes the most sense to me. I find that I really connect with God through worship. Scripture is what I struggle with. And just coming across this thread is another breathe of fresh air that there are many who are like me and who think like me.

I would put myself around 7 or 8...

I myself am in a similar position. I am 19 and grew up in the church. Now the church I'm in (same one my whole life) is really getting into the drum ministry to preach to children and adults about God, and I'm one of the leading members and everyone in the congregation is depending on me. My faith struggles, like you it mostly comes from scripture, and I find worshiping God is the best way to connect a lot of the time. Sometimes it is scary when people ask me questions about God and Christianity because I don't know how to interpret a lot of the bible, how much is it God's word, how much man's, how much culture is involved, what is really being said ect ect.

I would say I am an 8 while acknowledging that God could have tweaked whatever in order for things to happen the way He wanted it to happen.

 

[marktheblake]

I have been really struggling with the whole origins story.

I can understand that, I was exactly the same as you. If i didn't have kids asking me questions I would have never made the discoveries that I have made, which have actually reinforced my faith and made it rock solid.

Honestly it doesn't make sense. When Cain kills his brother, he is worried that others will kill him, but the Bible gives no explanation for where these other people came from?

That is a good one, and this is a common mistake that everybody makes, including myself. We make assumptions that are not supported by the biblical context, and then we get confused.

Not everything is explained in the Bible. We are allowed to make reasonable assumptions to fill in 'gaps' however whenever these assumptions are contradicted by the bible, then we are wrong.

Naturally we can expect that the only persons Cain could have been worried about was 'family'. Who else would have cared, now we only need to consider how its possible that he did have a family

Facts (all from Genesis 3-5)
Seth was born when Adam was 130 years old.
Adam and Eve had other children.
Eve is the mother of all Living
Seth was the replacement son for Abel

What we do not know is;
- when Cain and Able were born
- when Adam and Eves other Children were born.
- when Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden
- when Cain got married, who is wife was, and who were the people he was afraid of.

It is reasonable to assume that Adam and Eve were partaking of marital duties as often as any couple right, and therefore strike rate of 2 kids in the first *129 years is very ordinary effort. (reduced by however many years they were in the garden)

It is more reasonable to conclude that Adam and Eve had several kids between Abel and Seth, and that several generations now exist. A simple mathematical model would show that in 100 years a very large population could exist.

Now please read again Genesis 3-5 and you will see that this satisfactorily answers all facets of the puzzle and it does not contradict any of the text.

 

[jpcedotal]

Definitely a #3

 

[NJBeliever]

I have been really struggling with the whole origins story. Honestly it doesn't make sense. When Cain kills his brother, he is worried that others will kill him, but the Bible gives no explanation for where these other people came from? That is just one example that out of many other issues that are too extensive to discuss here that make it very hard for me to take the story literally.

Someone commented at the beginning of the thread discussing that after they were filled with the Holy Spirit, they had little or no doubt about believing wholely in the scriptures. Well, its has been a reverse situation for me. I was raised in the church, and was filled with the Holy Spirit many times in my youth. But as I got older, and started really reading the Bible (rather than being taught watered down/filtred stories) and researching on my own, I began to realize that were many things I had trouble blindly accepting. This created quite a crisis in my life that I still am struggling with today. To be fed all these things, and then to suddenly wake up one day and not be sure about everything you've been taught your whole life...its quite an earthshaking event.

At this point I am 25, I'm a youth leader in the church, I also lead worship for the Youth Group and from time to time on Sunday mornings. Strangely for me, worship is what makes the most sense to me. I find that I really connect with God through worship. Scripture is what I struggle with. But more and more I have been coming to terms that it is ok not to take the whole Bible literally. That I can still call myself a Christian and think this way. That has been a relieving conclusion for me. And just coming across this thread is another breathe of fresh air that there are many who are like me and who think like me.

Anyway, hope I didn't take it too off topic!

I would put myself around 7 or 8...

I'm sorry that you feel that you don't have to take the Bible literally. It can be! The Bible is just a complex book and takes time (lifetimes) to study. Your question about Cain is a GREAT one. For starters I would recommend using a KJV Bible. Not because it is the "only Bible" a Christian can use, but because it has the terms used in 1611 which have very different meanings from how they do today. Many other versions have changed these words without taking this into account. Your passage is a perfect example. God Almighty tells Cain he is cursed FROM the world, meaning he cannot stay on the Earth's surface. Sounds crazy, right? Well God then follows that up by saying Cain will be a fugitive and vagabond "IN the Earth." The KJV is the only translation that uses in. Other versions inexplicably change it.

And if you still think this notion is crazy, then look at Cain's response.

4Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth;

Cain's response seems to confirm the initial idea: he cannot stay on the surface of the Earth anymore. He has to literally go underground. And he seems to know that's a dangerous place since there are people there. Think of it this way: why was Cain not scared of getting killed before? If these people are so mean and evil, shouldn't he have already been used to their presence? He's not because he does not live with these "people."

But God is sending him to this other place. Nod, which happens to be next to Eden (a place that was heretofore inaccessible). Here Cain builds a city and only has six generations of descendants and then his lineage ends. And if you notice, it is not until Seth is born and has kids, that men begin believe and calling upon the name of The Lord Almighty again.

So I know this may seem very off the wall but it's only because most churches don't teach or mention things like this. But while the church can give us milk, we have to dig deeper and look for meat in the scriptures. I also understand you posted months ago so you may not read this but in the off chance you do, I wanted to show you that the Bible is indeed literal and has a number of concepts and facts that just open more doors of discovery for us. God bless.

 

[NJBeliever]

Oh yeah, and I am a number 4.

 

[john_christian]

#3

 

[cathLOLic]

8. Theistic Evolutionists (abiogenesis) - God created everything and established the full system of natural laws upon with the universe and the earth would work. And it did. With life arising at the time and place He had known it would, etc.

So, where do you fit in? I don’t necessarily want everyone to post their "number", but it is interesting to see it all laid out like this. If any have suggestions or tweaks to make to the this list, go ahead and say so.

If I had to select from the choices you provided, I'd be a number 8. I'm a college student majoring in Biology, and having looked through the evidences for both evolution and abiogenesis at length, I don't see any reason to conclude that it happened any other way.

 

[cathLOLic]

I was raised in the church, and was filled with the Holy Spirit many times in my youth. But as I got older, and started really reading the Bible (rather than being taught watered down/filtred stories) and researching on my own, I began to realize that were many things I had trouble blindly accepting. This created quite a crisis in my life that I still am struggling with today. To be fed all these things, and then to suddenly wake up one day and not be sure about everything you've been taught your whole life...its quite an earthshaking event.

-snip-

I would put myself around 7 or 8...

I don't think there is any crisis to be had here. A very generous date for the earliest Biblical writings is somewhere in the neighborhood of 2000 years before Christ. Science as an organized effort has only been around for roughly 400 years... so thats a big gap of time in between. So think about it: why would the writers of the Bible have known anything about how the world actually works? Its not like God was dictating a Biology text book to them. He didn't say "and don't forget, allele frequencies change from generation to generation and that simple lipids spontaneously form vesicles in a range of pH." Rather, the important truth of the Bible for Christians is that at some point in the distant past, God walked as a man among us, and gave us his opinion on how we are supposed to live our lives. I don't recall Jesus' opinion including adhering to a literal interpretation of the Bible. But too often, I think, Christians throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to the debate against science. There shouldn't be a debate, because evolution being the best explanation for the diversity of life (not the origins - thats abiogenesis) does not detract from the simple Christian truth that God walked as a man among us, and shared what was on his mind... before we nailed him to a tree. Theres no reason to be startled or afraid or opposed to science, its not Satan's work, its not Atheistic, it makes sense and is a valid method of learning about the physical world.

So, don't be bothered by the apparent contradiction between Genesis and what science tells us. There is no contradiction because Genesis is not a literal story. Its more of an explanation of a religious truth (that God is the creator) than it is an explanation of a literal truth (God created and here is how...).

 

[Numenor]

5. Progressive Creationists (aka "Day-Age Creationists", another form of OEC)- Believe that the earth and universe were created at the time science says, but that each "day" in Genesis referred to an indefinite period of time. Genesis is a historically and scientifically accurate account, just that it happened over a VERY long time period.

6. Theistic Evolutionists (with a literal Adam and Eve) - believe in an old earth and universe, but accept that God used evolution as part of His creation, basically as science describes it. But they feel that there was a literal Adam and Eve in a literal Garden. Some attribute this Adam and Eve to an instance of special creation, others to election as "representatives", etc. Also believe in biogenesis, not abiogenesis.

I swither between these two.

 

[depthdeception]

God created the universe...to be a universe. To try to explain creation through some manner of divine "mechanisms" is to establish a thoroughgoing materialism which is entirely indistinguishable from those who attempt to use philosophical materialism as a de facto paradigm for understanding reality, truth, and life. Both are cut of the same cloth, the only difference being the artificial conclusions that each strive to reach.

I think it is a great testament to the power of God that a universe like ours can exist without the need for divine "gap-filling." It also, most fortunately, prevents us from ever getting comfortable with duping ourselves into believing that the God who has inexplicably created all things is somehow, at the same time, bound to the constraints which the same forces upon our thinking.

 

[shernren]

I have been really struggling with the whole origins story. Honestly it doesn't make sense. When Cain kills his brother, he is worried that others will kill him, but the Bible gives no explanation for where these other people came from? That is just one example that out of many other issues that are too extensive to discuss here that make it very hard for me to take the story literally.

Someone commented at the beginning of the thread discussing that after they were filled with the Holy Spirit, they had little or no doubt about believing wholely in the scriptures. Well, its has been a reverse situation for me. I was raised in the church, and was filled with the Holy Spirit many times in my youth. But as I got older, and started really reading the Bible (rather than being taught watered down/filtred stories) and researching on my own, I began to realize that were many things I had trouble blindly accepting. This created quite a crisis in my life that I still am struggling with today. To be fed all these things, and then to suddenly wake up one day and not be sure about everything you've been taught your whole life...its quite an earthshaking event.

At this point I am 25, I'm a youth leader in the church, I also lead worship for the Youth Group and from time to time on Sunday mornings. Strangely for me, worship is what makes the most sense to me. I find that I really connect with God through worship. Scripture is what I struggle with. But more and more I have been coming to terms that it is ok not to take the whole Bible literally. That I can still call myself a Christian and think this way. That has been a relieving conclusion for me. And just coming across this thread is another breathe of fresh air that there are many who are like me and who think like me.

Anyway, hope I didn't take it too off topic!

I would put myself around 7 or 8...

And who exactly said the Christian life would be free of struggle? Enjoy the ride, my friend, even the perverse throw-you-upside-down-loop-the-loops.

 

[Keachian]

I'm an 8, though I push that 1 is the true Literalist standpoint and so should be adopted by all literalists, however I Know that God could have created the world in 6 days I also just decided that God could in fact view the earth as a flat object due to differences in perception.

 

[WandererOfTheWastes]

Somewhere from 7 to 8. It strikes me as odd that god would do so many things in massive timelines (40 years of desert wandering, however long 'til jesus came, and the gap between his visits) but yet create the whole world in 6 days. He could've, but as befits his fairly relaxed character, he didn't.

 

[Streampaws]

I can't decide if I am 4 or 5. I will have to think this over.

 

[Sam Conley]

I see anything with a higher purpose over that of themselves as acceptable. If your goal is to put people before yourself and for them to find their place with God you would be achieveing the same goal as any "name" or sect. I see this kind of like all roads lead to Rome, in this case it would be paths and only because of the help and acceptance of everyone involved. If you find yourself in the belief no one understands, its probably because you left out everyone else on your growth of thought as far as what you wanted to achieve. Or rather your path didnt lead to Rome and you need the help of someone else to find your way or youl be alone at the dead end.

 

[zeke37]

i fall somewhere between 4 and 5...a mix...