Christianity & Evolution Are Compatible...A Reflection

Amoeba

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Hi, I'm new, and I just wanted to expound on creationism. Also, when I use the word creationism, I also mean intelligent design.

First of all, Christians can believe in God and evolution, and be 100% content in their compatibility. If anyone states that evolution disproves god, or that you can't be a christian and believe in evolution, just know...they are full of it...

Creationism is full of logical holes and assumptions based on ideological grounds...in fact, I believe it puts God in a box, a box which he does not belong. It limits God to an interpretation not based in reality. Why is it not based in reality? Because the scientific data does not support it. Science itself allows the experiment to dictate the results. But creationists turn this on its head. They know the answer. They are simply trying to make the experiment fit into their preconceived view of reality. That is not science. And if you believe in God, you should also believe that science is the pursuit of knowing the mind of God.

Creationism relies on a false dichotemy. The creationists I have seen (i.e. Ken Ham, etc) main goal is not to prove creationism. Their main goal is disprove evolution, and the logic is, "If we disprove evolution, then creationism must be right." Unfortunately for them, disproving evolution does not prove creationism, especially given the fact that the proposition, "God created the universe", is a completely unprovable proposition within the realm of science. So to say creationism is science is a blatant oxymoron because "God" cannot be empirically studied. Intelligent design included.

Evolution says nothing about god or the existence god. If anything, if you are a Christian, you should be amazed at the fact of evolution, biological and cosmic. That God, in his logic, created a universe which evolves according to physical laws, and this evolution, after 13.7 billion years, resulted in you. It took 13.7 billion years of evolution for you to exist, and the fact that you even exist, that all the events during this insurmountable amount of time, resulted in your birth, is simply amazing. Evolution is a miracle and to deny it, in my opinion, is to deny reality. It is a fact, and if God created this universe, and us, it was done by evolution.

The Bible is full of wisdom, history, and theology. But it is NOT a scientific document. Let me repeat that. THE BIBLE IS NOT A SCIENTIFIC DOCUMENT. There is a real problem with creationist "science" because it is based on a non-scientific document and assumed to be the answer to all scientific questions of our origins.

One of creationists main focuses are human evolution. They just cannot believe that we evolved from ape-like ancestors, or single-celled organisms. A good one I've heard while in church was, "They want us to believe we evolved from pond scum! Pond scum." Well, perhaps not "pond scum", but we are essentially made out of dirt. Even the bible says (Gen 2:7), "the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." 13.7 billion years condensed into one sentence! Amazing! All living things are made of the same carbon based chemical concoction. Yes, we are made of the same stuff as trees, fish, and yes, apes. That is not to say we are a tree or fish or an ape (though we are in the same super-family).

So to conclude. Evolution is a fact. If you are a Christian and questioning whether you can believe in God and evolution, you can! Wonder in amazement that an almost infinite number of events over a incomprehensible amount of time (13.7 billion years), led to your birth, your life, both of which, should have statistically never happened! Reflect on that.
 

salida

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Creationism has logical holes and its a false dichotomy you claim? Even intelligent design? Please be very specific here. Your automobile didn't appear in this air; but a human body cell that is 1000 times more complicated did? Hmm. Show me this logically. The bible isn't a scientific document? Again, whats the point? It has an overwhelming amount of circumstantial evidence that supports it. Are you claiming that things can be proven only using the scientific method? Can you prove love and hate this way? Just because evolution can be disapproved creationism is right? No, this isn't my case sir. Show me that your brand of evolution definition is a fact. I believe in some macroevolution and all microevolution-this is fact. Something coming from nothing and a one celled organism is a farce. Science is merely an interpretation of things by men that God has done - thats it.

First we can end this debate faster on creationism possibly because the book its in called the Bible does have empirical evidence that supports it- an overwhelming amount. When this is accomplished, it will logically put this debate to rest because it will also answer the intellectual design and your brand of evolution question.
 
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TerranceL

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First we can end this debate faster on creationism possibly because the book its in called the Bible does have empirical evidence that supports it- an overwhelming amount. When this is accomplished, it will logically put this debate to rest because it will also answer the intellectual design and your brand of evolution question.

Please list this empirical evidence.
 
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plindboe

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Your automobile didn't appear in this air; but a human body cell that is 1000 times more complicated did?

No, of course it didn't.


Hmm. Show me this logically.

Why? No one has made such a ridiculous claim.


Show me that your brand of evolution definition is a fact. I believe in some macroevolution and all microevolution-this is fact. Something coming from nothing and a one celled organism is a farce.

No scientist says that something came from nothing. Creatio ex nihilo is a christian concept.

Ask yourself this: Why do you feel you have to make up claims to attack, rather than listening to the actual claims people make and addressing them instead?

Peter :)
 
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salida

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I will prove the Bible is true just by using biblical prophecies alone. For thousands of years the Hebrew scriptures predicted that a Messiah would one day come. The Old Testament details over three hundred prophecies about Jesus that were fulfilled in the New Testament. Prophecies such as his birth, where he was born, lineage, betrayed by a friend for 30 pieces of silver, he was spat on and beaten, he was silent before accusers.

Virgin birth
Jesus Birth:Isaiah 7:14
Prophecy written:701-681BC
Prophecy fulfilled:5 BC

Messiah born in Bethlehem: Micah 5:1-2
Prop written: 750-686BC
Prop fulfilled: 5BC

Messiah Tribe of Judah: Gen 49:10
Prop written: 1400BC
Prop fulfilled: 5BC

Messiah descendent of King David: Jeremiah 23:5
Prop written: 626-586BC
Prop fulfilled: 2000 years ago

Jesus betrayed by friend: Ps 41:9
Prop written: 1000BC
Prop fulfilled: 31AD

Betrayed by 30 pieces of silver: Zech 11:12-13
Prop written: 520-518BC
Prop fulfilled: 31AD

Jesus spat on and beaten: Isaiah 50:6
Prop written: 701-681BC
Prop fulfilled: 31AD

Jesus silent before accusers: Isaiah 53:7
Prop written: 701-681BC
Prop fulfilled: 31AD

Mathematically, the odds that one person would fulfill just 8 prophecies is 1 in 10 to the 17th power. If 48 of these prophecies are fulfilled these odds get even higher - to 10 to the 157th power. Mathematicians say that anything over 10 to the 50th is impossible. The bible has well over 48.

plindboe-

The millions of years theory is darwinism; evolving over time and improving throughout millions of years. What counts is who has the most evidence here; I don't care what concept you want to call it.
 
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CoderHead

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Messiah descendent of King David: Jeremiah 23:5
Prop written: 626-586BC
Prop fulfilled: 2000 years ago
I have problems with this one. Jesus wasn't a descendant of King David - that lineage was traced through Joseph, who had absolutely no part in Jesus' birth whatsoever. How do you figure this is accurate?
 
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Markus6

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I am a believer and I don't mean to attack your post. I actually accept the rest of it but...
Mathematicians say that anything over 10 to the 50th is impossible.
Only mathematicians who are wrong. It's a negligible probability (though every single birth since the prophecies gives a chance of it happening, thus increasing the expectation) but impossible only refers to things that have a probability of exactly zero.
 
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70x7

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So since we cannot "prove" the existance of God using our science, He does not exist?

"Creationism is full of logical holes and assumptions based on ideological grounds...in fact, I believe it puts God in a box, a box which he does not belong. It limits God to an interpretation not based in reality. Why is it not based in reality? Because the scientific data does not support it. Science itself allows the experiment to dictate the results."

....interesting.
 
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salida

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Jesus lineage was a descendent of King David-the bible is historically accurate with christian and nonchristian scholars.

I gave evidence but since it doesn't seem to fit your idea of evidence since it wasn't proven using naturalism it doesn't count. I can give you evidence but I can't force you to accept it. Then this can evolve into circular reasoning thereby getting no where. I'm not surprised at this because this is the standard result of debating with darwinist- they want naturalistic evidence when God is supernatural. God isn't in a naturalist box because he isn't natural.

Mathematicians can be wrong? Yes, but they can do 1 plus 1 sir and the statistics here is not at an advanced level. If this isn't what you want to read, this isn't my issue.
 
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CoderHead

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Jesus lineage was a descendent of King David-the bible is historically accurate with christian and nonchristian scholars.
I don't understand though. The lineage is traced through Joseph. How is that accurate?
 
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plindboe

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I will prove the Bible is true just by using biblical prophecies alone. For thousands of years the Hebrew scriptures predicted that a Messiah would one day come. The Old Testament details over three hundred prophecies about Jesus that were fulfilled in the New Testament. Prophecies such as his birth, where he was born, lineage, betrayed by a friend for 30 pieces of silver, he was spat on and beaten, he was silent before accusers.

Of course jews dismiss all of these "prophecies" as misunderstandings, wishful thinking and self-fulfilling prophecy.


Mathematically, the odds that one person would fulfill just 8 prophecies is 1 in 10 to the 17th power. If 48 of these prophecies are fulfilled these odds get even higher - to 10 to the 157th power.

Calculated how?


Mathematicians say that anything over 10 to the 50th is impossible.

No mathematician in his right mind would say such a silly thing.

Here's a thing you can try. Take a deck of cards. Draw one card at a time and put it down on a table in front of you in the order they were picked. When all the cards are on the table, what's the chance that you ended up with that exact order? Here's how it's calculated:

1 / (52 x 51 x 50 x 49 x ......) = 1 / 52! = 1,2 x 10E-68

i.e. impossible, according to you, and your imaginary mathematician.


The millions of years theory is darwinism; evolving over time and improving throughout millions of years. What counts is who has the most evidence here; I don't care what concept you want to call it.

This doesn't address anything I said to you. Do you not understand what I wrote, or is it because you're too prideful to admit that you were wrong?

My beef with your prior post was that you misrepresented the views of your opponents. Do you now accept that you misrepresented them? Did you ask yourself why you felt the need to misrepresent other people's viewpoints? Did you come up with an answer?

Peter :)
 
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TerranceL

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Virgin birth
Jesus Birth:Isaiah 7:14
Prophecy written:701-681BC
Prophecy fulfilled:5 BC

Messiah born in Bethlehem: Micah 5:1-2
Prop written: 750-686BC
Prop fulfilled: 5BC

Messiah Tribe of Judah: Gen 49:10
Prop written: 1400BC
Prop fulfilled: 5BC

Messiah descendent of King David: Jeremiah 23:5
Prop written: 626-586BC
Prop fulfilled: 2000 years ago

Jesus betrayed by friend: Ps 41:9
Prop written: 1000BC
Prop fulfilled: 31AD

Betrayed by 30 pieces of silver: Zech 11:12-13
Prop written: 520-518BC
Prop fulfilled: 31AD

Jesus spat on and beaten: Isaiah 50:6
Prop written: 701-681BC
Prop fulfilled: 31AD

Jesus silent before accusers: Isaiah 53:7
Prop written: 701-681BC
Prop fulfilled: 31AD
Now if only ANY of those prophecies were anywhere near explicit.

Using the bible to prove the bible is silly.


The millions of years theory is darwinism; evolving over time and improving throughout millions of years. What counts is who has the most evidence here; I don't care what concept you want to call it.
Your right on that part, it's where the evidence is. This is why creationism is a joke.
 
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salida

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Oh, there is more than one mathematician that is silly. Yeah, right blame the mathematician. The odds of prophesy happening in detail is very small and I only discussed Christ in a few ways. To me this is common sense. Can you predict something in 500 years with great detail and be 100% accurate? Or in 1000 or more years if its so silly?
 
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salida

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I will give you outside sources about Christ. That isn't difficult either. I will mention a portion out of many historians:

Jewish Talmud
Tannaitic Period: from 70 AD to 200AD- Sanhedrin 43a:
"On the eve of the passover they hanged Yeshu. And an announcer went out in front of him for 40 days, saying: "He is going to be stoned, because he practiced sorcery and enticed and lead Israel astray. Anyone who knows anything in his favor, let him come and plead on his behalf." (These jews who wrote this despised him)

From this we know Jesus existed, was crucified (hanged on a tree) on the eve of the passover, he performed miracles (jews called this sorcery), he lead many people away from legalistic jewish teaching, the jewish leaders were plotting to kill Jesus.

Historian Tacitus; He wrote a 12 volume set called the Annuals which spans the historical period from the reign of Tiberius (from a point predating the ministry of Jesus) to the reigns of Claudius and the beginning of Nero's (the last years of Paul's ministry). He wrote in 115AD - Christus (founder of christianity) was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea. Tacitus was antichristian.

Historian Phlegon; Origen,184-254AD; Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes that took place.

Documents that prove bible is true not in bible:
Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles

-Historical Accuracy
The Bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events hundreds of years ago, yet has not been proven incorrect on any.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents):
New Testament - starts at 25 years - between original and first surviving copies
Homer - starts at 500 years
Demosthenes - at 1400 years
Plato - at 1200 years
Caesar - at 1000 years

Number of Manuscript Copies
New Testament - 5,686
Homer - 643
Demosthenes - 200
Plato - 7
Caesar - 10

 
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salida

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All I have heard is how creation is a joke but have seen no references to your view point of why? Saying this over and over doesn't make it more true; in fact, its all sounding very childish. I showed you just a portion of my evidence. I will be waiting for the other view point.
 
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salida

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CoderHead-

I don't know here your getting your information from but your claim isn't correct.

The Line of Jesus through Joseph

The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. Abraham was the father of Isaac, and Isaac the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers, and Judah the father of Perez and Zerah by Tamar, and Perez the father of Hezron, and Hezron the father of Ram, and Ram the father of Amminadab, and Amminadab the father of Nahshon, and Nahshon the father of Salmon, and Salmon the father of Boaz by Rahab, and Boaz the father of Obed by Ruth, and Obed the father of Jesse, and Jesse the father of David the king. And David was the father of Solomon by the wife of Uriah, and Solomon the father of Rehoboam, and Rehoboam the father of Abijah, and Abijah the father of Asa, and Asa the father of Jehoshaphat, and Jehoshaphat the father of Joram, and Joram the father of Uzziah, and Uzziah the father of Jotham, and Jotham the father of Ahaz, and Ahaz the father of Hezekiah, and Hezekiah the father of Manasseh, and Manasseh the father of Amos, and Amos the father of Josiah, and Josiah the father of Jechoniah and his brothers, at the time of the deportation to Babylon. And after the deportation to Babylon: Jechoniah was the father of Shealtiel, and Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel, and Zerubbabel the father of Abiud, and Abiud the father of Eliakim, and Eliakim the father of Azor, and Azor the father of Zadok, and Zadok the father of Achim, and Achim the father of Eliud, and Eliud the father of Eleazar, and Eleazar the father of Matthan, and Matthan the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.
 
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Cabal

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Oh, there is more than one mathematician that is silly. Yeah, right blame the mathematician.

No, we blame the terrible usage of "probabilities" in that argument. It's quite clear no actual mathematicians were involved. But way to avoiding dodging the rebuttal issued to it.
 
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