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Contradictions within the Qur'an

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humblemuslim

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I will not attempt to discuss everything here because I am not personally interested; but I do contest your idea of abrogation. If alcohol is allowed earlier, then a verdict saying that you can't drink it under any circumstances would change the earlier verdict. You can't have drinking and non drinking at the same time. The easiest way to see this is by looking at the time chronology in which these commands were given. Earlier ayats would be canceled by more recent ayats. That seems logical and reasonable to me. What are your thoughts? repeating something with changes is abrogation. Thou shalt drink with conditions is contradictory to thou shalt not drink at all. One has to be subjected to the other. They cannot both be true in the same context and time; otherwise, they become contradictions.

peaceful soul gave you a good answer. To call it a clarification is not enough, as you can't do both things at the same time, e.g. to drink and not to drink alkohol. Therefore abrogation is the only answer that does make sense. If it was not so, then we would have many contradictions within the Qur'an... and how could this be as the Qur'an claims to be a perfect revelation from Allah?

Neither place demands/commands the drinking of alcohol. And actually neither prohibits it completely either. That is why I continue to say the action is not recommended.

Let us take a peek at the literal translation of the verses in question.


Qur'an Literal Translation 2:219 said:
They ask/question you about the intoxicants/substances affecting the brain and the gambling , say: "In them (B) (is a) great sin/crime and benefits/uses to the people and their (B's) sin/crime (is) bigger/greater from (than) their (B's) benefit/use, and they ask/question you what they (should) spend, say: "The excess over expense/goodness ." Like that God clarifies for you the signs/verses/evidences, maybe you think.

Qur'an Literal Translation 5:90-91 said:
O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and sacraments, and fortunes are foul tools used by the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful. The devil only wants to cause strife between you through intoxicants and gambling, and to repel you away from remembering God and from the connection. Will you be deterred?

Does either verse say there is absolutely no drinking? No. Such an understanding is an extreme view not explicitly expressed.

Does either verse say there is nothing wrong with drinking?
No. Again this is another extreme view in the opposite direction that is not supported either.

Both verses form a cohesive idea. Drinking alcohol is a dangerous activity and not recommended.

If we still have a disagreement even after this post then answer the following questions so I can better understand where exactly you are formulating your understanding from.

Where does 2:219 verse say alcohol should be consumed?

Where does 5:90-91 verse say alcohol is strictly prohibited?


If one verse says go ahead and the other says no way, then yes that would be a contradiction. But that is not what I am seeing when I read these verses, although it appears that is what you two are seeing.

Up to this point the only thing that I have seen that would lead to such an understanding is quoted below:

Beckyy25 said:
The footnote for the word 'avoid' in verse 90 says the following:

This prohibition understood from the word "avoid" is stronger than if Allah had merely said, "Abstain." The former requires distancing oneself from anything remotely related to these practices.

So for me this is a clear case of abrogation. The verses were all revealed at different times and the latter do abrogate the previous ones.​
To offer even a more broad view of the interpretations translators have taken for the verses of 5:90-91 consider this pool of translations

11 English Translations of Qur'an 5:90 said:
Free_Minds:
O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and sacraments, and fortunes are foul tools used by the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful.

Khalifa:
O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and the altars of idols, and the games of chance are abominations of the devil; you shall avoid them, that you may succeed.

Yusuf_Ali:
O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.

Shakir:
O you who believe! intoxicants and games of chance and (sacrificing to) stones set up and (dividing by) arrows are only an uncleanness, the Shaitan's work; shun it therefore that you may be successful.

Pickthal:
O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed.

Arberry:
O believers, wine and arrow-shuffling, idols and divining-arrows are an abomination, some of Satan's work; so avoid it; haply So you will prosper.

George_Sale:
O true believers, surely wine, and lots, and images, and divining arrows are an abomination of the work of Satan; therefore avoid them, that ye may prosper.

Hilali_Khan:
O you who believe! Intoxicants (all kinds of alcoholic drinks), gambling, AlAnsab, and AlAzlam (arrows for seeking luck or decision) are an abomination of Shaitans (Satan) handiwork. So avoid (strictly all) that (abomination) in order that you may be successful.

Malik:
O believers! Intoxicants and gambling (games of chance), dedication to stones (paying tribute to idols) and division by arrows (lottery) are the filthy works of Satan. Get away from them, so that you may prosper.

Maulana_Ali:
O you who believe, intoxicants and games of chance and (sacrificing to) stones set up and (dividing by) arrows are only an uncleanness, the devil’s work; so shun it that you may succeed.

QXP:
O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! Intoxicants, gambling and games of chance, sacrificing animals on stones i.e. altars of idols and idolatrous practices, and divining of the future by such means as arrows, raffles and omens, is all Satan's handiwork. Refrain from it that you may prosper.

Counts:

him - 1
it - 5

such - 1
that - 1
them - 3


So which translation is accurately translating here? The red ones are not direct faithful translations. They are interpretive translations. The blue ones are possible literal meanings for the pronoun being applied here.

The word in question is:


[FONT=&quot]ﻓﺎﺟﺘﻨﺒﻮﻩ[/FONT]

The key portion of the key is highlighted in red. That portion is basically the equivalent of a pronoun.

"[...] when affixed to a verb or preposition as a personal pronoun it means him or it ;"

Source : http://www.aboutquran.com/res/lex/JohnPenrice_DictionaryKoran.pdf (Refer to the bottom of page 162 of the PDF)

So is the correct meaning him? Or it?

Him would suggest the avoiding of Satan.

It would suggest the avoiding of everything listed.

They should all be avoided is the understanding that makes sense. But does avoiding something mean prohibition? No.

Avoid -
to keep away from somebody or something

Prohibit -
to stop somebody from doing something by passing a law or rule that forbids it


These terms are not interchangeable.

The footnote quoted stated that the Arabic word being used is stronger than simply abstaining from.

Abstain -
to choose not to do something

Such a footnote does not make sense when you compare the two definitions of the two words in English. To avoid is not a greater degree of abstaining. Avoiding can be an action of abstaining.

I avoid it because I abstain from it. Otherwise stated, I distance myself from it because I choose not to do it.

The footnote does not make sense since it attempts to relate two words as being relative magnitudes of the same thing when they are not.
 
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elwill

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Have you read the paper? If not then let me quote for you a part of it. I will highlight for you the things (only the most important ones, otherwise the whole paper would be red) which he says are wrong. And you should be fair to accept that he does not present his opinions here, but specifically tells what is wrong:
i'm happy that you choose to discuss it :)

but entirely i'm surprised that your paper keeping to say that our caclulation is wrong without providing the correct one
if he believe that it's wrong calculations so he should to provide the correct one , why he didn't ?
anyway , let us examine if he have new informations :D

The problem here is with the definition of L, which, according to the
above, should be a precise definition of the >>maximum distance in
space equivalent to that which the moon passes during<< one lunar
month. Obviously,
this distance depends on the reference frame used to observe the moon.

the prof. don't know that our calculation for length
Is the length of the lunar orbit outside gravitational fields (no external forces, no acceleration, no deceleration).
do you know what is meaning of that ?
it means that it will the most accurate calculation which not depend on any variable reference and dosn't change with time
when you calculate things outside gravitational field , your calculations will be correct forever

what my article allready said :

The lunar orbit relative to Earth is a low eccentricity ellipse. Most astronomers calculate the length of the lunar orbit manually by the following equivalent circle method:
L = V T = 2 &#960; R
speed-of-light-implies.gif
V = 2 &#960; R / T
However this velocity is under the influence of the gravitational pull of the sun. We can vectorially calculate the velocity of the moon relative to Earth without the gravitational pull of the sun and hence the new length of the lunar orbit: Displacement is a vector (has magnitude and direction) and from this vector we get the velocity vector (magnitude and direction); from this velocity vector we get the kinetic energy. If external work is done we end up with a resultant displacement vector, resultant velocity vector and resultant kinetic energy.

Without the sun (isolated Earth-moon system) the moon's isolated vector remains in the original direction with respect to stars (no twist); but with the sun (compounded system), the moon's compounded vector changes direction by angle &#248; with respect to stars each cycle around Earth (twist). This means that the moon's orbital energy is the vectorial sum of the energy acquired from this twist plus the intrinsic energy of Earth-moon system (kinetic energy of Earth's spin transferred to the lunar orbit by ocean friction; see how below).
The lunar orbital radius (R) is a function of total energy, however the total orbital energy comes form two sources: ocean friction and gravitational twist (two sources, not one). Since the distance to the sun is not a constant then as the distance to the sun increases to infinity the lunar orbit loses this twist; but without the energy gained from this twist the orbital radius decreases to R' = Rcos&#248; (see proof at footnote [2]). Hence the moon's isolated orbital length becomes L' = 2&#960;R' = 2&#960;Rcos&#248; = Lcos&#248; (i.e. 12000 L' / t' = 12000 Lcos&#248; / t').


i can understand how these calculations may be hard for you to understand , as for i'm engineer graduated it's quite easy for me to understand and argue about it
but actually the article gave us the details and the explanation of every claculated number , i think that i need refutation in the same level of knowldge because your article is very very weak
anyway , i allready showed you how we overcame the problemm which your article refered to :cool:



The straightforward interpretation is that the right point of reference
should be the center of mass of the earth, since the sun is describes
as travelling in an orbit (around the earth, as was tradition at that
time). However, the authors interpretation of this is, surprisingly,

>>Here an essential scientific fact is clearly stated, namely, the
existence of the earth's, sun's and moon's orbits<<

The earth is not at all mentioned here. But (in dubio pro reo) let us
again assume that the author's interpretation is adequate.

Then the orbit of the sun would have to be the relative motion of the
sun with respect to the center of the galaxy. However, this is
completely ignored in the calculation. Instead, the center of mass of
the sun is taken as the intended reference frame: >>the earth, and
consequently the moon's orbit, have travelled some way around the
sun...<<
Beckyy25 , focus in his last conclusion , he didn't say somthing new
actually , none of his knowledge were ignored
read what is allready stated in my article

When the Earth-moon system is still inside the solar system the position of the sun relative to Earth with respect to stars changes (see Beckyy25 it wasn't ignored atall)
; this means that the moon has to make more than 360 degrees with respect to stars in order to point to the sun again. However when the Earth-moon system exits the solar system the position of the sun relative to Earth with respect to stars remains the same, that is, the moon now only has to make 360 degrees with respect to stars in order to point to the sun again (the synodic periods become equal to the sidereal periods). This means that the lunar month with respect to the sun becomes equal to lunar month with respect to stars and Earth day with respect to the sun becomes equal to Earth day with respect to stars. So the 1000 lunar years with respect to sun become equal to 12000 lunar months with respect to stars.



 
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Beckyy25

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i'm happy that you choose to discuss it :)

but entirely i'm surprised that your paper keeping to say that our caclulation is wrong without providing the correct one
if he believe that it's wrong calculations so he should to provide the correct one , why he didn't ?

There is no need for a calculation, that is what he is basically saying, that is what I have thought from the beginning. You don't need such a calculation to prove anything in these verses.
i can understand how these calculations may be hard for you to understand , as for i'm engineer graduated it's quite easy for me to understand and argue about it
You know elwill, the calculation itself is not hard for me to understand. But the reason why you choose such a calculation is hard for me to understand. I do not see any need for that.

but actually the article gave us the details and the explanation of every claculated number , i think that i need refutation in the same level of knowldge because your article is very very weak

Well then wait for someone in your level to discuss with. I am not an engineer, so I'm not in your level.

Also, there should be a more easy explanation for these verses, something that anyone would understand. Honestly, I do not believe that God made things so complicated, that only few people who have higher studies can understand the logic of these things. ;)

I do not see any need to go further with this discussion, because you are always saying the same things, and so do I. So this won't lead to any result. You have your POV, I have mine, that's it.

If anyone else has a better and easier explanation, please post it.
 
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Beckyy25

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If we still have a disagreement even after this post then answer the following questions so I can better understand where exactly you are formulating your understanding from.

Where does 2:219 verse say alcohol should be consumed?

Where does 5:90-91 verse say alcohol is strictly prohibited?

If one verse says go ahead and the other says no way, then yes that would be a contradiction. But that is not what I am seeing when I read these verses, although it appears that is what you two are seeing.

I understand you POV humbelmuslim, I just wonder why Muslim scholars think in another way about that? But anyways, we should move further to other points. :)
 
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peaceful soul

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I understand you POV humbelmuslim, I just wonder why Muslim scholars think in another way about that? But anyways, we should move further to other points. :)

The overwhelming majority of Muslims say that it is a prohibiton. The reason is that not only did Allah deter it, but the manner of speaking of alcohol associated with manipulation of satan means that it is not even a choice, even if alcohol does have some good benefits. The view is to avoid it so that the little good in it won't lead one to compromise themselves with Allah. I can quote several different Web sites that come to the same consensus. Apparently, the fact that alcohol does not appear completely bad and therefore forbidden is not a argument that it can be ingested. A little bad is the best reason to avoid it because of its obvious problems with Muslims before its prohiblition. I am not sure what translation that humblemuslim is trying to use, but it does not resonate with the mainstream. I can agree with him that there is no outright ban if I just read the verses literally, but I can see the implications of the phraseology of the ayats he cited that interprets it as completely banned.

I will say more and give some citations shortly.
 
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Beckyy25

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The overwhelming majority of Muslims say that it is a prohibiton. The reason is that not only did Allah deter it, but the manner of speaking of alcohol associated with manipulation of satan means that it is not even a choice, even if alcohol does have some good benefits. The view is to avoid it so that the little good in it won't lead one to compromise themselves with Allah. I can quote several different Web sites that come to the same consensus. Apparently, the fact that alcohol does not appear completely bad and therefore forbidden is not a argument that it can be ingested. A little bad is the best reason to avoid it because of its obvious problems with Muslims before its prohiblition. I am not sure what translation that humblemuslim is trying to use, but it does not resonate with the mainstream. I can agree with him that there is no outright ban if I just read the verses literally, but I can see the implications of the phraseology of the ayats he cited that interprets it as completely banned.

I will say more and give some citations shortly.

That would be great. Thank you peaceful soul. :)
 
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Beckyy25

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OK, I guess I should summarise the points 6-10:

6) How long is Allah's day?

1,000 years

22:47 And they urge you to hasten the punishment. But Allah will never fail in His promise. And indeed, a day with your Lord is like a thousand years of those which you count.

32:5 He arranges [each] matter from the heaven to the earth; then it will ascend to Him in a Day, the extent of which is a thousand years of those which you count.

50,000 years

70:4 The angels and the Spirit [i.e., Gabriel] will ascend to Him during a Day the extent of which is fifty thousand years.
Until now I know that the day mentioned in the first verse is one of the six days in which Allah did create the heavens and the earth. That leads me to the conclusion that Muslims believe the earth was created in 6,000 years.
The day mentioned in the second verse shows the length of time it takes for a matter to go up to Allaah.
The day described in the third verse is the length of the day of Resurrection.

What I don't understand is why all three verses do talk about 1 day, but we humans do perceive one of them as 1,000 years and the other one as 50,000 years. So why is that? Does anyone have a reasonable explanation for that?

7) Who chooses the devils to be the friends of disbelievers?

Allah

7:27 O children of Adam, let not Satan tempt you as he removed your parents from Paradise, stripping them of their clothing to show them their private parts. Indeed, he sees you, he and his tribe, from where you do not see them. Indeed, We have made the devils allies to those who do not believe.

The disbelievers

7:30 A group [of you] He guided, and a group deserved [to be in] error. Indeed, they [i.e., the latter] had taken the devils as allies instead of Allah while they thought that they were guided.

The answer to this one is somehow related to the previous question: Who guides people, Allah or Satan?

So the answer would be :

To summarise, people have chosen to take the Shaytin as their helpers and this was decreed by Allah Exalted and Mighty.

8) Was Pharaoh drowned or saved?

He was drowned.

17:102-103 [Moses] said, "You have already known that none has sent down these [signs] except the Lord of the heavens and the earth as evidence, and indeed I think, O Pharaoh, that you are destroyed."
So he intended to drive them from the land, but We drowned him and those with him all together.

28:40 So We took him and his soldiers and threw them into the sea. So see how was the end of the wrongdoers.

43:55 And when they angered Us, We took retribution from them and drowned them all.

He was saved.

10:90-92 And We took the Children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh and his soldiers pursued them in tyranny and enmity until, when drowning overtook him, he said, "I believe that there is no deity except that in whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of the Muslims."
Now? And you had disobeyed [Him] before and were of the corrupters?
So today We will save you in body that you may be to those who succeed you a sign. And indeed, many among the people, of Our signs, are heedless.

Answer:
No doubt according to Islamic belief Pharaoh drowned.

Another point which i think is worth mentioning is that even though Pharoah said that "there is no God worthy of worship except Allah" he still died as a disbeliever. Please refer to the end of Chapter Ghafir below:

(Allah will accept the repentance of His servant so long as the death rattle is not sounding in his throat.) Once the death rattle is sounding and the soul has reached the throat, and the dying person actually sees the angel (of death), then he can no longer repent.Source

9) Will all Jews and Christians go to hell?

Yes, all Christians will go to hell.

3:85 And whoever desires other than Islam as religion &#8211; never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.

5:72 They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah &#8211; Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers.

No, some will not.

2:62 Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad ] &#8211; those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness &#8211; will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

5:69 Indeed, those who have believed [in Prophet Muhammad ] and those [before him ] who were Jews or Sabeans or Christians &#8211; those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness &#8211; no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

So who will be in Heaven?
Answer:
1) All Jews who followed the Torah and who lived before Jesus.
2) All Christians who followed Jesus' Gospel and who lived before Muhammad.
3) After Muhammad, only those who are Muslims and who follow the Qur'an.
Source

10) Does Muhammad ask for a fee?

Yes.

2:195 And spend in the way of Allah and do not throw [yourselves] with your [own] hands into destruction [by refraining]. And do good; indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.

8:41 And know that anything you obtain of war booty &#8211; then indeed, for Allah is one fifth of it and for the Messenger and for [his] near relatives and the orphans, the needy, and the [stranded] traveler, if you have believed in Allah and in that which We sent down to Our Servant on the day of criterion [i.e., decisive encounter] &#8211; the day when the two armies met [at Badr]. And Allah, over all things, is competent.

9:103 Take, [O Muhammad], from their wealth a charity by which you purify them and cause them increase, and invoke [Allah's blessings] upon them. Indeed, your invocations are reassurance for them. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

9:111 Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah, so they kill and are killed. [It is] a true promise [binding] upon Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur&#8217;an. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah? So rejoice in your transaction which you have contracted. And it is that which is the great attainment.

47:38 Here you are &#8211; those invited to spend in the cause of Allah &#8211; but among you are those who withhold [out of greed]. And whoever withholds only withholds [benefit] from himself; and Allah is the Free of need, while you are the needy. And if you turn away [i.e., refuse], He will replace you with another people; then they will not be the likes of you.

57:10 And why do you not spend in the cause of Allah while to Allah belongs the heritage of the heavens and the earth? Not equal among you are those who spent before the conquest [of Makkah] and fought [and those who did so after it]. Those are greater in degree than they who spent afterwards and fought. But to all Allah has promised the best [reward]. And Allah, with what you do, is Acquainted.

No.

12:104 And you do not ask of them for it any payment. It is not except a reminder to the worlds.

36:21 Follow those who do not ask of you [any] payment, and they are [rightly] guided.

42:23 It is that of which Allah gives good tidings to His servants who believe and do righteous deeds. Say, [O Muhammad], "I do not ask you for it [i.e., this message] any payment [but] only good will through [i.e., due to] kinship." And whoever commits a good deed &#8211; We will increase for him good therein. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Appreciative.

52:40 Or do you, [O Muhammad], ask of them a payment, so they are by debt burdened down?

68:46 Or do you ask of them a payment, so they are by debt burdened down?

Answer:
To summarise this long post the ayaat which were quoted above either have been taken out of context, meaning they refer to other aspects of the religion like Zakah and Jihad - this is not fair and injust to Holy Quran. Finally some of the ayat refer to spending in the way of Allah, meaning supporting his deen through wealth and other means.

I am not going to go into the details of the ayahs where it is claimed that Muhammed never took a fee because the above proves that he never did, therefore there is nothing to prove anymore. However I can if you want me to.

It would be nice if you would do so when you think you can find some time for that.
 
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elwill

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Until now I know that the day mentioned in the first verse is one of the six days in which Allah did create the heavens and the earth. That leads me to the conclusion that Muslims believe the earth was created in 6,000 years.
The day mentioned in the second verse shows the length of time it takes for a matter to go up to Allaah.
The day described in the third verse is the length of the day of Resurrection.

What I don't understand is why all three verses do talk about 1 day, but we humans do perceive one of them as 1,000 years and the other one as 50,000 years. So why is that? Does anyone have a reasonable explanation for that?

hi , Beckyy
allow me to answer your second point firstly
The 50,000 years mentioned in third verse are meant to be of God's years and not of man. That is because man was not mentioned at all in that verse, and more importantly because the subject of the verse (creation of the universe) is obviously a matter executed by God and not by man and, so, its description must also be as related to God and not to man.

70:4 The angels and the Spirit [i.e., Gabriel] will ascend to Him during a Day the extent of which is fifty thousand years.

This becomes evident when we compare this verse to other verses that clearly speak of years as related to man's count, like the verse:
"…on a day, the measure of which was a thousand years of your count." 32:5

so , there is no contradictions about the numbers here , is this point clear ?


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
back to your first question , you asking about if muslims believe that the earth was created in 6,000 years. !!!


Moslems believe that 6 days passed at God's Throne but we experienced 13.7 billion years on Earth:

the verse of the creation of the universe in 6 days isn't related to man's count either , it's related to God

i expect your second question will be that " quran said in another verse that day of God equal to 1000 earthy day while you say that we experienced 13.7 billion years , how is that !!!!!!!!!

well , The theory of general relativity says that time should pass slower near an object more massive than Earth (clocks run slower in stronger gravitational fields). which means that as much as you farthest from an object ( throne of God ) the day will be longer

the verse which mentioned 1000 earthy years actually refer to paradise / hell , and offcourse paradise / hell is nearest to the throne which made the day there is differ than the day in the point of universe's creation as for it will be in place with different gravitational field than that in paradise/hell
 
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elwill

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So who will be in Heaven?
Answer:
1) All Jews who followed the Torah and who lived before Jesus.
2) All Christians who followed Jesus' Gospel and who lived before Muhammad.
3) After Muhammad, only those who are Muslims and who follow the Qur'an.
Source
i think that the problem here is about the defination of islam

the message which was conveyed by the Prophet Mohammad. The message which was revealed to Mohammad is called Islam, and to profess the belief in his message is also Islam. Muslim, also, has come to mean the person who follows the message of Mohammad and believes in its truthfulness.

but is this the only definataion for islam or muslim ?
Beckyy , you know that muslims believe that islam is a religion of every prophet be sent by God , mohammed ( pbuh) is just the last prophet for this religion , that's what we believe and you have to take that under your consideration

In the religious sense, Islam means submission to the will of God and obedience to His law.

2-127 - and remember Abraham and Ismail raised the foundations of the house (with this prayer): our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: for thou art the all hearing, the all knowing.
2-128 - Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to they (will), and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to thy (will); and show us our places for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in mercy); for thou art the oft returning, most merciful.

2-133 - Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? behold, he said to his sons: what will ye worship after me? they said: we shall worship thy God and the God of thy fathers, of Abraham, Ismail, and Isaac. the one (true) God: to him we are muslims

"Abraham was not a Jew nor a Christian, but he was an upright (man), a Muslim; and he was not one of the Polytheists." 3:67

52 - When Jesus found unbelief on their part he said: who will be my helpers to (the work of) God? said the disciples: we are God's helpers: we believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.

so where is the contradictions agian ?
 
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Beckyy25

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i think that the problem here is about the defination of islam

the message which was conveyed by the Prophet Mohammad. The message which was revealed to Mohammad is called Islam, and to profess the belief in his message is also Islam. Muslim, also, has come to mean the person who follows the message of Mohammad and believes in its truthfulness.

but is this the only definataion for islam or muslim ?
Beckyy , you know that muslims believe that islam is a religion of every prophet be sent by God , mohammed ( pbuh) is just the last prophet for this religion , that's what we believe and you have to take that under your consideration

In the religious sense, Islam means submission to the will of God and obedience to His law.

2-127 - and remember Abraham and Ismail raised the foundations of the house (with this prayer): our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: for thou art the all hearing, the all knowing.
2-128 - Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to they (will), and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to thy (will); and show us our places for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in mercy); for thou art the oft returning, most merciful.

2-133 - Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? behold, he said to his sons: what will ye worship after me? they said: we shall worship thy God and the God of thy fathers, of Abraham, Ismail, and Isaac. the one (true) God: to him we are muslims

"Abraham was not a Jew nor a Christian, but he was an upright (man), a Muslim; and he was not one of the Polytheists." 3:67

52 - When Jesus found unbelief on their part he said: who will be my helpers to (the work of) God? said the disciples: we are God's helpers: we believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.


so where is the contradictions agian ?
You're giving me a hard time elwill. ;) Either I can't explain things properly, or you don't understand what I'm saying. :doh:

There is no contradiction here elwill. The question is:

9) Will all Jews and Christians go to hell?

Yes, all Christians will go to hell.

3:85 And whoever desires other than Islam as religion – never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.

5:72 They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah – Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers.

In other words, yes all those who identify themselves as Jews or Christians and who lived/live after the time of Muhammad, e.g. after the Qur'an has been revealed, and who do not follow the Qur'an, they will all go to Hell according to Islam. As an example take me, I will go to Hell according to Islam.

No, some will not.

2:62 Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad ] – those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness – will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

5:69 Indeed, those who have believed [in Prophet Muhammad ] and those [before him ] who were Jews or Sabeans or Christians – those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness – no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

This answer is also correct. Some of the Jews and Christians will not go to Hell. They are those Jews and Christians who lived before Muhammad's time and who did live according to the scripture that God revealed for them: for the Jews the Torah, for the Christians the Gospel. That is what Islam teaches. I only made a résumé for the points 6-10. I did not say there is a contradiction between those verses quoted above.
 
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elwill

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In other words, yes all those who identify themselves as Jews or Christians and who lived/live after the time of Muhammad, e.g. after the Qur'an has been revealed, and who do not follow the Qur'an, they will all go to Hell according to Islam. As an example take me, I will go to Hell according to Islam.

according to islam , you will go to hell if you believe in trinity or divined jesus and worship him
as for it's not the religion of abraham nor moses nor any other prophets

by the way , there are muslims who pray to the rightious deads at the graves , although they are muslims but in ignorance they shared others in thier worship beside allah ( that also makes them unbelievers ) , such practices made them lose the actual meaning for islam

as for God can forgive anything but one , to make partners for him

and i'm sorry if i made anything hard for you , i can leave my fellow muslim friends to answer your questions if you want without any interference from me :)
 
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Beckyy25

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and i'm sorry if i made anything hard for you , i can leave my fellow muslim friends to answer your questions if you want without any interference from me :)

I didn't mean that you should not post anymore. You are welcome to post whenever you want. :) I just meant that you sometimes do not understand what I'm trying to say, or maybe I can't explain things very well. ;)
 
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humblemuslim

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3) How many angels talked to Mary?

Short Answer - One (According to this collection of verses)

Let me start off by just showing the two accounts.

Qur'an English Translation said:
[3:42] The angels said, "O Mary, GOD has chosen you and purified you. He has chosen you from all the women.
[3:43] "O Mary, you shall submit to your Lord, and prostrate and bow down with those who bow down."
[3:44] This is news from the past that we reveal to you. You were not there when they drew their raffles to select Mary's guardian. You were not present when they argued with one another.
[3:45] The angels said, "O Mary, GOD gives you good news: a Word from Him whose name is `The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary. He will be prominent in this life and in the Hereafter, and one of those closest to Me.'
[3:46] "He will speak to the people from the crib, as well as an adult; he will be one of the righteous."
[3:47] She said, "My Lord, how can I have a son, when no man has touched me?" He said, "GOD thus creates whatever He wills. To have anything done, He simply says to it, `Be,' and it is.

Qur'an English Translation said:
[19:16] Mention in the scripture Mary. She isolated herself from her family, into an eastern location.
[19:17] While a barrier separated her from them, we sent to her our Spirit. He went to her in the form of a human being.
[19:18] She said, "I seek refuge in the Most Gracious, that you may be righteous."
[19:19] He said, "I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you a pure son."
[19:20] She said, "How can I have a son, when no man has touched me; I have never been unchaste."
[19:21] He said, "Thus said your Lord, `It is easy for Me. We will render him a sign for the people, and mercy from us. This is a predestined matter.' "

The most simple starting point revolves around the singular indication found in 3:47. We find that although the prior verses seem to be speaking of a multitude of angels, the dialogue shows that Mary is speaking to a single being. Had the verses prior been meant to imply plurality of angels the pronoun there would have been They/Them/Etc.

This is the simple explanation. One might then ask why a plural form of angel was used. The answer is rooted in Arabic grammar, something I would be unable to explain in any great amount of detail. But from what I have read, the Arabic Grammar being used here is much like the 'Royal we' concept in the English language.

Majestic plural - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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ApplePie7

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according to islam , you will go to hell if you believe in trinity or divined jesus and worship him
as for it's not the religion of abraham nor moses nor any other prophets



“According to islam”….this is a most convenient answer for the trained follower of islam.

However, what about “according to the Koran”?

Why does this phrase never pass through the lips of any Muslim?

Guarantied, if any follower of islam actually bothered to study their Koran in the classic Arabic, then they would stop dead in their tracks.

The Koran is not islam.

Islam is not the Koran.

Which do you follow brother Elwill?

Why are you so interested in pleasing man rather than God?
 
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Beckyy25

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&#8220;According to islam&#8221;&#8230;.this is a most convenient answer for the trained follower of islam.

However, what about &#8220;according to the Koran&#8221;?

Why does this phrase never pass through the lips of any Muslim?

That is really true, I always ask Muslims to tell me what the Qur'an says, and most of the time I get some ahadith instead. Or when the verses from the Qur'an don't give a satisfactory explanation, then things can be only clarified with the Sunnah.

Guarantied, if any follower of islam actually bothered to study their Koran in the classic Arabic, then they would stop dead in their tracks.
I guess the problem is that many Muslims do not speak Arabic. They only know few words and expressions which are necessary in the prayers. They have to believe what is told to them.

I know a Muslim apostate from Saudi, and he told me no one can fool him any longer with anything, because he knows Arabic, he knows the Qur'an, he even memorized half of it when he was a Muslim, so he knows what he's talking about.

The Koran is not islam.

Islam is not the Koran.

Which do you follow brother Elwill?

Why are you so interested in pleasing man rather than God?

Yeah, Islam is Qur'an + Sunnah, you don't get the whole picture of Islam if you do not consider Muhammad's actions and sayings. And I find this really strange. They pretend to have a holy book, revealed by God Himself, a book who is supposed to be free of error, but still this book is not sufficient to practice your religion. This is a strange thing.
 
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Beckyy25

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OK, so here are the next 5 points:

11) How should Jews and Christians be treated?

With kindness and patience.

2:109 Many of the People of the Scripture wish they could turn you back to disbelief after you have believed, out of envy from themselves [even] after the truth has become clear to them. So pardon and overlook until Allah delivers His command. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.

By Fighting against them.

9:29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth [i.e., Islam] from those who were given the Scripture – [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

jizyah = A tax required of non-Muslims exempting them from military service and
entitling them to the protection of the Islamic state. Concurrently, zakahis not taken from them, being an obligation only upon Muslims.


12) Which was created first, heaven or earth?

Heaven

79:27-30 Are you a more difficult creation or is the heaven? He [i.e.,Allah] constructed it.
He raised its ceiling and proportioned it.
And He darkened its night and extracted its brightness.
And after that He spread the earth.​

Earth

2:29 It is He who created for you all of that which is on the earth. Then He directed Himself to the heaven, [His being above all creation], and made them seven heavens, and He is Knowing of all things.​

41:9-12 Say, "Do you indeed disbelieve in He who created the earth in two days and attribute to Him equals? That is the Lord of the worlds."
And He placed on it [i.e., the earth] firmly set mountains over its surface, and He blessed it and determined therein its [creatures'] sustenance in four days without distinction - for [the information of] those who ask.
Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."
And He completed them as seven heavens within two days and inspired [i.e., made known] in each heaven its command. And We adorned the nearest heaven with lamps [i.e., stars, for beauty] and as protection. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.​


13) Will Allah forgive anyone for anything?

Yes, Allah will forgive those tho seek pardon.

4:110 And whoever does a wrong or wrongs himself but then seeks forgiveness of Allah will find Allah Forgiving and Merciful.​

39:53 Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."​


No, there are some things and some people that he will never forgive.

4:48 Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin.​

4:116 Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly gone far astray.​

4:137 Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, then believed then disbelieved, and then increased in disbelief – never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a way.​

4:168 Indeed, those who disbelieve and commit wrong [or injustice] – never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a path,​

9:80 Ask forgiveness for them, [O Muhammad], or do not ask forgiveness for them. If you should ask forgiveness for them seventy times – never will Allah forgive them. That is because they disbelieved in Allah and His Messenger, and Allah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people.​

47:34 Indeed, those who disbelieved and averted [people] from the path of Allah and then died while they were disbelievers – never will Allah forgive them.​

63:3-6 That is because they believed, and then they disbelieved; so their hearts were sealed over, and they do not understand.
And when you see them, their forms please you, and if they speak, you listen to their speech. [They are] as if they were pieces of wood propped up – they think that every shout is against them. They are the enemy, so beware of them. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?
And when it is said to them, "Come, the Messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you," they turn their heads aside and you see them evading while they are arrogant.
It is all the same for them whether you ask forgiveness for them or do not ask forgiveness for them; never will Allah forgive them. Indeed, Allah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people.​


14) How many angels fought with Muhammad?

3,000

3:124,126 [Remember] when you said to the believers, "Is it not sufficient for you that your Lord should reinforce you with three thousand angels sent down?
And Allah made it not except as [a sign of] good tidings for you and to reassure your hearts thereby. And victory is not except from Allah, the Exalted in Might, the Wise –​

1,000

8:9-10 [Remember] when you asked help of your Lord, and He answered you, "Indeed, I will reinforce you with a thousand from the angels, following one another."
And Allah made it not but good tidings and so that your hearts would be assured thereby. And victory is not but from Allah. Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.​


15) Is each person free to believe as he or she wishes?

Yes.

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion.

18:29 Whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve.

109:6 Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.


Yes, but disbelievers ...

are not loved by Allah.

3:32 Allah loveth not the disbelievers.

30:45 He loveth not the disbelievers.

will be tormented forever in hell.

18:29 Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place!

3:85 Whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.

will be shunned by believers.

3:28 Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers.

4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve ... choose not friends from them.

4:144 Choose not disbelievers for (your) friends in place of believers. Would ye give Allah a clear warrant against you?

5:51 Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. ... He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them.

60:1 Do ye give them friendship when they disbelieve?

are the enemies of believers.

4:101 The disbelievers are an open enemy to you.

9:12-14 If they ... assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief. ...
Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them

9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah.

9:123 Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you.

will be killed by believers.

4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve ... take them and kill them wherever ye find them.

9:5 Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I copied the last point (no. 15) from the link, with the verses as they are written down there. Therefore some verses are not quoted as a whole, I made this intentionally, I think the idea that is presented here is more clear like this.
For all the other points I quoted the complete verses.
 
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Beckyy25

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32-5 (Allah) Rules the cosmic affair from the heavens to the Earth. Then this affair travels to Him a distance in one day, at a measure of one thousand years of what you count.


70-4 The angels and the Spirit ascend to Him in a day, the measure of which is fifty thousand years.

Here angels will experience 1 day while humans will measure it as 50,000 years (time vs. time and not time vs. distance as the previous lunar verse)


However, according to the theory of special relativity, given this time difference (time dilation), we can calculate the speed at which that object traveled.

We can verify if those angels really accelerate up to the speed of light, as claimed by Moslems, on the first verse

speed_of_light_01.gif


Where &#8710;to is the time measured for a mover by a mover;
&#8710;t is the time measured for a mover by a stationary frame; v is the velocity of the mover relative to the stationary observer)
&#8710;to is the time experienced by angels (1 day).
&#8710;t is the time as measured by humans (50,000 lunar years x12 lunar months/lunar year x 27.321661 days/lunar month).
v is the velocity of angels in this case (which we intend to calculate and then compare to the known speed of light).
c is the known speed of light 2997924.48 km/s, the speed of light in vacuum



From the above equation we can solve for the unknown velocity:
speed_of_light_02.gif


So let’s insert the Moslem claims and see if their angels really accelerate up to the speed of light or not. Insert dates from this verse The angels and the Spirit ascend to Him in a day, the measure of which is fifty thousand years into the formula
speed_of_light_03.gif

speed_of_light_04.gif



v = 299792.4579999994 km / s ( and this is the speed of light )


I found one of your threads here at CF where you discussed the issue of special relativity. I hope you don't mind it if I post the link here for those who are curious to see what others think about this issue: http://www.christianforums.com/t7346730/
 
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HumbleSiPilot77

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32-5 (Allah) Rules the cosmic affair from the heavens to the Earth. Then this affair travels to Him a distance in one day, at a measure of one thousand years of what you count.
Copied from the New Testament;

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing: that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."
2 Peter 3:8
 
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Beckyy25

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Copied from the New Testament;

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing: that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." 2 Peter 3:8

That was my first thought too when I first read that verse in the Qur'an. But well, Muslims do not admit something like that. ;)
 
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elwill

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That is really true, I always ask Muslims to tell me what the Qur'an says, and most of the time I get some ahadith instead. Or when the verses from the Qur'an don't give a satisfactory explanation, then things can be only clarified with the Sunnah.

i think that msot of our answers are form quran
but what is the wrong with ahadeeth , it's the records of our prophet saying , it is the same as your only sourse (bible) is records about his life
you even dosn't have words of God similar to what muslims have in quran , you only have records about him as we have it in ahadeeth


I guess the problem is that many Muslims do not speak Arabic. They only know few words and expressions which are necessary in the prayers. They have to believe what is told to them.
and you don't have the smae problem with greek or hebrew language ? i think that your problem is bigger


Yeah, Islam is Qur'an + Sunnah, you don't get the whole picture of Islam if you do not consider Muhammad's actions and sayings. And I find this really strange. They pretend to have a holy book, revealed by God Himself, a book who is supposed to be free of error, but still this book is not sufficient to practice your religion. This is a strange thing.

so that you choose to follow the bible ? :o
 
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