Contradictions within the Qur'an

[Beckyy25]

9:29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth [i.e., Islam] from those who were given the Scripture – [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

Well, that is the part I think has nothing to do with the original question.

don't miss " until they give jeziah" , the verse is talking about civilized nonmuslims who don't pay the tax

And about whom is the first verse talking?

i have to confess that i like that

that the Arabic verb "Daha" which mentioned refers to:
1- An egg or spherical shape.
2- A squatted, dumpy, pushed down or pressed spherical object.
3- A circular motion.

the verb daha refer to the process of making egg or spherical shape and also means that make it move in circular motion

Okay, so you are saying Allah made things in this order:

1) The earth
2) The heaven
3) Shaped the earth

Is that correct?

 

[elwill]

Thank you kindly for your patience.

My question is in reference to knowing Allah himself, and he, imparting wisdom to his subjects.

the most sufficient chapter God gave to himself in quran is this chapter
112
1 - Say: He is Allah, the One!
2-Allah, the eternally Besought of all!
3-He begetteth not nor was begotten.
4-And there is none comparable unto Him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6-59 With Him are the keys of the unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He. He knoweth whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His knowledge: there is not a grain in the darkness (or depths) of the earth, nor anything fresh or dry (green or withered), but is (inscribed) in a record clear (to those who can read).

6-60 And He it is Who takes your souls at night (in sleep), and He knows what you acquire in the day, then He raises you up therein that an appointed term may be fulfilled; then to Him is your return, then He will inform you of what you were doing.

6-61 And He is the Supreme, above His servants, and He sends keepers over you; until when death comes to one of you, Our messengers cause him to die, and they are not remiss.

6-62 Then are men returned unto Allah, their protector, the (only) reality: Is not His the command? and He is the swiftest in taking account.

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6-73 It is He who created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): the day He saith, "Be," behold! it is. His word is the truth. His will be the dominion the day the trumpet will be blown. He knoweth the unseen as well as that which is open. For He is the Wise, well acquainted (with all things).
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6-95
It is Allah Who causeth the seed-grain and the date-stone to split and sprout. He causeth the living to issue from the dead, and He is the one to cause the dead to issue from the living. That is Allah. then how are ye deluded away from the truth?

6-96 He causes the dawn to break; and He has made the night for rest, and the sun and the moon for reckoning; this is an arrangement of the Mighty, the Knowing.

6-97 And He it is Who has made the stars for you that you might follow the right way thereby in the darkness of the land and the sea; truly We have made plain the communications for a people who know.

6-98 And He it is Who has brought you into being from a single soul, then there is (for you) a resting-place and a depository; indeed We have made plain the communications for a people who understand.

6-99 And He it is Who sends down water from the cloud, then We bring forth with it buds of all (plants), then We bring forth from it green (foliage) from which We produce grain piled up (in the ear); and of the palm-tree, of the sheaths of it, come forth clusters (of dates) within reach, and gardens of grapes and olives and pomegranates, alike and unlike; behold the fruit of it when it yields the fruit and the ripening of it; most surely there are signs in this for a people who believe.
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tell me if you want more

The secondary part of my question is about seeking him, his face, because of loving him....knowing him in a personal way. Does he not invite this? And if so, why would he not impart wisdom as one gets to know him, his heart and mind?

quran teaches us that the vision for all believers is to love God:
[Say (o;moahmmed) : “If ye do love God, Follow me: God will love you and forgive you your sins: For God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful”] (Aal `Imran 3:31).

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

I refer you to this:

Islam Question and Answer - The saheeh Sunnah is wahy (Revelation) from Allaah

Look this is going deeper, if we declare the sunnah, a revelation from Allah, then it can not bear any errors or imperfections. This logic makes Muhammad's deeds, words, and instructions PERFECT, because it is assumed divine, however, this is a man who owns up to his mistakes and asks forgiveness from Allah. I am at a dilemma here, these articles do not answer that question.

 

[elwill]

And about whom is the first verse talking?

the first is talking about general treatment with them , in our communication with them and with our discussions with them

Okay, so you are saying Allah made things in this order:

1) The earth
2) The heaven
3) Shaped the earth

Is that correct?

not exactly , actually there is another verse where God said that the heavins and the earth were one peace , then he exploded it ( big bang theory)

44-30 - Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth Were joined together (as one Unit of Creation), before We clove them asunder? we made from water every living thing. will they not then believe?

i believe that that is was the beginning of every thing
then he starts to complete the creation of earth
then he set on the earth the mountains and create everything necessary in it
then he raised to sky when it was smoke and complete it as seven heavins
then he reveald to each heavin its commands , and created lights (stars) in the the lower one ( our universe)
then he starts to form the earth by revolving it in egg-shape form

and allah knows best

 

[elwill]

OK, so here are the next 5 points:

14) How many angels fought with Muhammad?​

3,000​

3:124,126 [Remember] when you said to the believers, "Is it not sufficient for you that your Lord should reinforce you with three thousand angels sent down?
And Allah made it not except as [a sign of] good tidings for you and to reassure your hearts thereby. And victory is not except from Allah, the Exalted in Might, the Wise –​

1,000​

8:9-10 [Remember] when you asked help of your Lord, and He answered you, "Indeed, I will reinforce you with a thousand from the angels, following one another."
And Allah made it not but good tidings and so that your hearts would be assured thereby. And victory is not but from Allah. Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.

​

first of all the green part is misquoted

let me correct it for you

5,000
3- 125 "Yea, - if ye remain firm, and act aright, even if the enemy should rush here on you in hot haste, your Lord would help you with five thousand angels Making a terrific onslaught.

According to authentic tradition, Allah(swt) had already promised victory to the muslims following the prayers of the Phophet Mohammad(pbuh&hf) and during the battle, Allah(swt) sent down first one thousand then three thousand and then five thousand angels to help the Muslim army.


​

15) Is each person free to believe as he or she wishes?​

Yes.​

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion.

18:29 Whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve.

109:6 Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

Yes, but disbelievers ...​

are not loved by Allah.

3:32 Allah loveth not the disbelievers.

30:45 He loveth not the disbelievers.

will be tormented forever in hell.

18:29 Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place!

3:85 Whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.

will be shunned by believers.

3:28 Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers.

4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve ... choose not friends from them.

4:144 Choose not disbelievers for (your) friends in place of believers. Would ye give Allah a clear warrant against you?

5:51 Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. ... He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them.

60:1 Do ye give them friendship when they disbelieve?

are the enemies of believers.

4:101 The disbelievers are an open enemy to you.

9:12-14 If they ... assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief. ...
Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them

9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah.

9:123 Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you.

will be killed by believers.

4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve ... take them and kill them wherever ye find them.

9:5 Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush.
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I copied the last point (no. 15) from the link, with the verses as they are written down there. Therefore some verses are not quoted as a whole, I made this intentionally, I think the idea that is presented here is more clear like this.
For all the other points I quoted the complete verses.

where is the contradictions here either ?

the first part said to us not to force anyone to be a muslims , everyone have free will to believe or disblieve
whatever , whoever choose to believe will be rescued and whoever choose to disblieve will be in hell

the verse which talking about wars are wars of defence , not a missions to convert the people

 

[SlaveOfGod]

No. And you know why? Because you can't fully trust people. A person often might seem to be a good person, while in reality this person is not as good as everyone thought. It's just a case of how capable someone is to hide his true being from the people around him.

You know, all this "I heard it from this person, who heard it from this person who heard it from this person who said this......" seems to be really a primitive way (I do not mean this as an insult or something) of transmitting such valuable information. The more persons are involved in something, the greater is the possibility of mistakes to be made. I would rather believe a person who claims to have received a revelation from God directly (like Muhammad) than believing (let's better say trusting) that some people have heard this and that from someone, and that they were really trustworthy and pious people. What if they weren't? What if they misunderstood something? What if they simply invented something or added few little things to a saying, to make it look better or whatever? This issue is too important to just blindly trust this way of transmission. It can't be verified to 100% in order to know if what those people said was really the truth. To some degree you simply have no other choice but to believe what they were saying.

Know this is why i said, if you can confirm that the person transmitting is 100% trustworthy who was known to be of upright character, a pious worshipper and known not to make any error in reporting or transmitting. There has to be no doubt and severe interegation of the Isnad (chain of tranmission) before it can be accepted and only then can it be accepted. If there is a slight chance an error it is not taken and the hadith is classified as weak (daef) or even worse fabricated (mawdo).

The Prophet said in an authentic hadith - "Whoever puts words in my mouth let him take his seat in the hellfire"

This is the hadith which all muhadithoon (hadith scholars) know, and this is the hadith by which they all rule by. They were the first to avoid quoting something which Muhammed didnt say and ensure that what they transmitted was in fact what Muhammed said. Why? Because the hadith above was a warning to all them. A terrible crime it is to put words in the mouth of a Prophet of God.

Just as the Quran was transmitted, the people transmitted the Sunnah.

Regardless if this is your opinion then there really isnt anything worth discussing on this topic anymore. Scholars have devoted a science to this very practice of transmission it is not as straight forward as you point out.

Regards and good night

 

[SlaveOfGod]

Look this is going deeper, if we declare the sunnah, a revelation from Allah, then it can not bear any errors or imperfections. This logic makes Muhammad's deeds, words, and instructions PERFECT, because it is assumed divine, however, this is a man who owns up to his mistakes and asks forgiveness from Allah. I am at a dilemma here, these articles do not answer that question.

You are assuming every action which Muhammed did is classified as the Sunnah.

When he forgot how many units of prayer he prayed do we regard this action as the Sunnah? The answer is no, we regard it is as a forgetful mistake. The Prophet said in an authentic hadith that he is only a man and that he forgets just like all other men.

The Sunnah if you read what I posted in the link, is the Prophets, actions, approvals and commands. This is the Sunnah, all other things outside of these are not classified as the Sunnah.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

When he forgot how many units of prayer he prayed do we regard this action as the Sunnah? The answer is no, we regard it is as a forgetful mistake.

It is a forgetful mistake but as the semantics go, it is an ACTION. Therefore, I might suggest that I see more confusion. With that in mind, now Sunnah doesn't sound any divine at all.

 

[brinny]

the most sufficient chapter God gave to himself in quran is this chapter
112
1 - Say: He is Allah, the One!
2-Allah, the eternally Besought of all!
3-He begetteth not nor was begotten.
4-And there is none comparable unto Him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6-59 With Him are the keys of the unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He. He knoweth whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His knowledge: there is not a grain in the darkness (or depths) of the earth, nor anything fresh or dry (green or withered), but is (inscribed) in a record clear (to those who can read).

6-60 And He it is Who takes your souls at night (in sleep), and He knows what you acquire in the day, then He raises you up therein that an appointed term may be fulfilled; then to Him is your return, then He will inform you of what you were doing.

6-61 And He is the Supreme, above His servants, and He sends keepers over you; until when death comes to one of you, Our messengers cause him to die, and they are not remiss.

6-62 Then are men returned unto Allah, their protector, the (only) reality: Is not His the command? and He is the swiftest in taking account.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
6-73 It is He who created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): the day He saith, "Be," behold! it is. His word is the truth. His will be the dominion the day the trumpet will be blown. He knoweth the unseen as well as that which is open. For He is the Wise, well acquainted (with all things).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6-95
It is Allah Who causeth the seed-grain and the date-stone to split and sprout. He causeth the living to issue from the dead, and He is the one to cause the dead to issue from the living. That is Allah. then how are ye deluded away from the truth?

6-96 He causes the dawn to break; and He has made the night for rest, and the sun and the moon for reckoning; this is an arrangement of the Mighty, the Knowing.

6-97 And He it is Who has made the stars for you that you might follow the right way thereby in the darkness of the land and the sea; truly We have made plain the communications for a people who know.

6-98 And He it is Who has brought you into being from a single soul, then there is (for you) a resting-place and a depository; indeed We have made plain the communications for a people who understand.

6-99 And He it is Who sends down water from the cloud, then We bring forth with it buds of all (plants), then We bring forth from it green (foliage) from which We produce grain piled up (in the ear); and of the palm-tree, of the sheaths of it, come forth clusters (of dates) within reach, and gardens of grapes and olives and pomegranates, alike and unlike; behold the fruit of it when it yields the fruit and the ripening of it; most surely there are signs in this for a people who believe.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
tell me if you want more



quran teaches us that the vision for all believers is to love God:
[Say (o;moahmmed) : “If ye do love God, Follow me: God will love you and forgive you your sins: For God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful”] (Aal `Imran 3:31).

thank you kindly for your response.....let's see if i can explain....what you posted is about Allah....what i'm referring to is knowing him in a personal way......loving him like a child loves a loving father who delights over his child and rejoices over his child with singing....looking straight into the face of his and delighting in him, with joy overflowing.

 

[elwill]

thank you kindly for your response.....let's see if i can explain....what you posted is about Allah....what i'm referring to is knowing him in a personal way......loving him like a child loves a loving father who delights over his child and rejoices over his child with singing....looking straight into the face of his and delighting in him, with joy overflowing.

i'm not sure from which love you refering to , but in islam the pious person should express his love to Allah by believing in His Prophet and following the Message, and through obeying the Prophet, abiding by his orders, leaving what he prohibits and obeying all what Allah has revealed to him, because that is the vivid expression of the practical love that fills his whole entity. In this way, Allah will love the pious person because He, the Most Exalted, loves those who are pious, truthful, charitable, devout, and are sincere to Him and to His Prophet.
that's why i quote for you this verse
"If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful". (3:31)
briefly , this is the personal relation between a muslim and his God

A man said to the Prophet (p.): "What should I do in order to gain Allah's love".
The Prophet (p.) replied: "Love what Allah and His Prophet love and detest what Allah and His Prophet detest".




but may be you asking about emotional records which show in deep sense the love of allah , i can find somthing for you but not in the quran (i don't memorize something for now) , it's in hadeeth qudsi .

Hadith Qudsi are the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him) as revealed to him by the Almighty Allah. Hadith Qudsi (or Sacred Hadith) are so named because, unlike the majority of Hadith which are Prophetic Hadith, their authority (Sanad) is traced back not to the Prophet but to the Almighty.

"A Sacred Hadith is, as to the meaning, from Allah the Almighty; as to the wording, it is from the messenger of Allah (peace be upon him). It is that which Allah the Almighty has communicated to His Prophet through revelation or in dream, and he, peace be upon him, has communicated it in his own words. Thus Qur'an is superior to it because, besides being revealed, it is His wording."

On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said: Allah (mighty and sublime be He) said:
Whosoever shows enmity to someone devoted to Me, I shall be at war with him. My servant draws not near to Me with anything more loved by Me than the religious duties I have enjoined upon him, and My servant continues to draw near to Me with supererogatory works so that I shall love him. When I love him I am his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes and his foot with which he walks. Were he to ask [something] of Me, I would surely give it to him, and were he to ask Me for refuge, I would surely grant him it. I do not hesitate about anything as much as I hesitate about [seizing] the soul of My faithful servant: he hates death and I hate hurting him.

On the authority of Anas (may Allah be pleased with him), who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) say: Allah the Almighty said:
O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great at it.

 

[Beckyy25]

first of all the green part is misquoted

let me correct it for you

5,000
3- 125 "Yea, - if ye remain firm, and act aright, even if the enemy should rush here on you in hot haste, your Lord would help you with five thousand angels Making a terrific onslaught.

According to authentic tradition, Allah(swt) had already promised victory to the muslims following the prayers of the Phophet Mohammad(pbuh&hf) and during the battle, Allah(swt) sent down first one thousand then three thousand and then five thousand angels to help the Muslim army.

I don't think sura 3:126 is misquoted. That was made intentionally to show that both verses do talk about the same event, as in both almost the same wording has been used.

14) How many angels fought with Muhammad?

3,000​

3:124,126 [Remember] when you said to the believers, "Is it not sufficient for you that your Lord should reinforce you with three thousand angels sent down?
And Allah made it not except as [a sign of] good tidings for you and to reassure your hearts thereby. And victory is not except from Allah, the Exalted in Might, the Wise –​

1,000​

8:9-10 [Remember] when you asked help of your Lord, and He answered you, "Indeed, I will reinforce you with a thousand from the angels, following one another."​

And Allah made it not but good tidings and so that your hearts would be assured thereby. And victory is not but from Allah. Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.​

-------------------------------------------------------------

15) Is each person free to believe as he or she wishes?

Yes.​

Yes, but disbelievers ...​

are not loved by Allah.

will be tormented forever in hell.

will be shunned by believers.

are the enemies of believers.

will be killed by believers.

where is the contradictions here either ?

the first part said to us not to force anyone to be a muslims , everyone have free will to believe or disblieve
whatever , whoever choose to believe will be rescued and whoever choose to disblieve will be in hell

I do see here a contradiction, because on one hand the Qur'an says to let everyone believe whatever he wishes, but on the other hand it says to shun believers, to see them as enemies and the worst of all: to kill them. How can a person know about your faith and possibly convert to your faith, if you do avoid talking with unbelievers?

I don't know, but for me I do not see persons of another faith as enemies, I rather see them as potential future believers. If I do not try to talk to them, to tell them about my faith, (and if every other Christian would do the same like me), then how would this person ever have the chance to know about my faith and eventually convert?

the verse which talking about wars are wars of defence , not a missions to convert the people

Yes that is what I hear always from Muslims when sura 9:5 is mentioned. But why do all of you don't take into consideration what Ibn Kathir said? Muslims hold this person's views in high esteem, yet he said sura 9:5 is to be taken literally, not only in the time of war but always, at any time! Practically that would mean: If we both would meet, you as a Muslim would have to kill me, because I would not agree to convert to Islam.
That does not sound nice, doesn't it?

 

[Beckyy25]

Know this is why i said, if you can confirm that the person transmitting is 100% trustworthy who was known to be of upright character, a pious worshipper and known not to make any error in reporting or transmitting. There has to be no doubt and severe interegation of the Isnad (chain of tranmission) before it can be accepted and only then can it be accepted. If there is a slight chance an error it is not taken and the hadith is classified as weak (daef) or even worse fabricated (mawdo).
...
Just as the Quran was transmitted, the people transmitted the Sunnah.

In another post you said:

When he forgot how many units of prayer he prayed do we regard this action as the Sunnah? The answer is no, we regard it is as a forgetful mistake. The Prophet said in an authentic hadith that he is only a man and that he forgets just like all other men.

1) So Muhammad forgot to pray 2 raka'a in a prayer. He did admit he forgets things like any another person would do (and definitely does). And I do agree with that, it happens to everyone.

2) Then we have the ahadeeth narrators, who were mere men just like Muhammad, who also used to forget this and that at times.

So both (Muhammad and the ahadeeth narrators) are supposed to 'sometimes' make mistakes. How then can you say: "if you can confirm that the person transmitting is 100% trustworthy ... and known not to make any error in reporting or transmitting"?
There is not a single person in this world who does not make an error in speech, narration, etc. But you say all authentic ahadeeth are free from such errors?! Ahadeeth narrated by mere men, like Muhammad?

I honestly do not understand how you can believe that. Once you say Muhammad is only a man, he makes errors, next time you say the ahadeeth (which were narrations of mere men too) are free from error!?

Regardless if this is your opinion then there really isnt anything worth discussing on this topic anymore. Scholars have devoted a science to this very practice of transmission it is not as straight forward as you point out.

Regards and good night

I am really trying to understand this. You know very well that I do not talk about something just for the sake of arguing. I am really trying to understand this. But I can't, as long as you do not apply the same criteria in both cases.

 

[SlaveOfGod]

In another post you said:


1) So Muhammad forgot to pray 2 raka'a in a prayer. He did admit he forgets things like any another person would do (and definitely does). And I do agree with that, it happens to everyone.

2) Then we have the ahadeeth narrators, who were mere men just like Muhammad, who also used to forget this and that at times.

So both (Muhammad and the ahadeeth narrators) are supposed to 'sometimes' make mistakes. How then can you say: "if you can confirm that the person transmitting is 100% trustworthy ... and known not to make any error in reporting or transmitting"?
There is not a single person in this world who does not make an error in speech, narration, etc. But you say all authentic ahadeeth are free from such errors?! Ahadeeth narrated by mere men, like Muhammad?

I honestly do not understand how you can believe that. Once you say Muhammad is only a man, he makes errors, next time you say the ahadeeth (which were narrations of mere men too) are free from error!?



I am really trying to understand this. You know very well that I do not talk about something just for the sake of arguing. I am really trying to understand this. But I can't, as long as you do not apply the same criteria in both cases.

Becky, I know you are trying to understand. As I have told you before you are the most sincere Christian in my opinion on this forum.

Does this mean however you never made a mistake in life? Maybe you forgot to pray once in your life? There is no link between being untrustworthy and forgetful, for all of mankind are susceptible to the latter but not the former. Does this forgetfulness mean you are untrustworthy? Of course not, by Allah, this does not make you untrustworthy for I know you to be a truthful person.

And you know very well that by the Grace of Allah the All Wise, that the Quran was transmitted word for word through the hearts of the companions of the Prophet, to their companions and so on, right up until this day it can be transmitted back to the Prophet.
This is exactly how the Sunnah was recorded and transmitted.

Regards

 

[elwill]

I don't think sura 3:126 is misquoted. That was made intentionally to show that both verses do talk about the same event, as in both almost the same wording has been used.

it's okey , ithought that may be you misquoted it , but i understood now your intensions

anyway , i didn't deny that all three verses refering to the same battle

I do see here a contradiction, because on one hand the Qur'an says to let everyone believe whatever he wishes, but on the other hand it says to shun believers, to see them as enemies and the worst of all: to kill them. How can a person know about your faith and possibly convert to your faith, if you do avoid talking with unbelievers?

the all problem is with misunderstanding of the verses
the verses which mentioned to not take disbelievers as friends was mistranslated as for the word "friend" not accurate translation for the arabic word "waley" , it should to be allies not firends , it's political aspect of view

and again the verses which mentioned us to kill them are refere to those who allready imposed the wars upon us

60-8 - God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loveth those who are just.​

60-9 - God only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.

​

I don't know, but for me I do not see persons of another faith as enemies, I rather see them as potential future believers. If I do not try to talk to them, to tell them about my faith, (and if every other Christian would do the same like me), then how would this person ever have the chance to know about my faith and eventually convert?

me either

Yes that is what I hear always from Muslims when sura 9:5 is mentioned. But why do all of you don't take into consideration what Ibn Kathir said? Muslims hold this person's views in high esteem, yet he said sura 9:5 is to be taken literally, not only in the time of war but always, at any time!

yes i agree with you he is very great scholar , but it dosn't mean that we should to agree with every word of him , no one is perfect . after all he interpret his own human understanding

but anyway what Ibn kathir said is

(then fight the Mushrikin wherever you find them), means, on the earth in general, except for the Sacred Area, for Allah said,
(And fight not with them at Al-Masjid Al-Haram, unless they fight you there. But if they attack you, then fight them. )[2:191]

i think that he clarifying the prohibition to fight in the sacred mosque except if it was very necessery to fight there .
so if the war was allready prepared so make the place of war anywhere in earth but in the sacred mosque

i think that he interpret the verses in the situations of war either

Practically that would mean: If we both would meet, you as a Muslim would have to kill me, because I would not agree to convert to Islam.
That does not sound nice, doesn't it?

no it dosn't sound nice at all , i agree with you
but i believe either that it isn't my religion , when mohammed (pbuh) conquered mekkah , he didn't force any one to be muslim
the prophet and his companion after his death , never killed those civilians who didnt accept islam as a religion

 

[Beckyy25]

Becky, I know you are trying to understand. As I have told you before you are the most sincere Christian in my opinion on this forum.

Does this mean however you never made a mistake in life?

Sure I did make mistakes... too many mistakes, unfortunately.

Maybe you forgot to pray once in your life?

As a Christian I do not have a specific number of obligatory prayers per day, so I would not call it 'forgetting' to pray, but rather ignoring to pray, which is IMO even worse than forgetting.

There is no link between being untrustworthy and forgetful, for all of mankind are susceptible to the latter but not the former. Does this forgetfulness mean you are untrustworthy? Of course not, by Allah, this does not make you untrustworthy for I know you to be a truthful person.

OK, let me quote again what you said:

Know this is why i said, if you can confirm that the person transmitting is 100% trustworthy who was known to be of upright character, a pious worshipper and known not to make any error in reporting or transmitting. There has to be no doubt and severe interegation of the Isnad (chain of tranmission) before it can be accepted and only then can it be accepted. If there is a slight chance an error it is not taken and the hadith is classified as weak (daef) or even worse fabricated (mawdo).
...
When he forgot how many units of prayer he prayed do we regard this action as the Sunnah? The answer is no, we regard it is as a forgetful mistake. The Prophet said in an authentic hadith that he is only a man and that he forgets just like all other men.

So we are having here:

1) the person transmitting is ... known not to make any error in reporting or transmitting - in other words this person does not forget anything, never!
2) The Prophet said ... he is only a man and that he forgets just like all other men - in other words he does forget sometimes something.

So how can it be that men who transmitted the ahadeeth are supposed to not have made any mistakes in their narrations, they never!? forgot anything (which can't be true, because even Muhammad admitted that he did forget at times something); but Muhammad who is supposed to have received the Final Revelation (Qur'an) from God, and who had to memorize what the angel Gabriel brought down to him, he admitted that it could happen for him to sometimes forget something. Do you see now what I'm trying to say?

And you know very well that by the Grace of Allah the All Wise, that the Quran was transmitted word for word through the hearts of the companions of the Prophet, to their companions and so on, right up until this day it can be transmitted back to the Prophet.
This is exactly how the Sunnah was recorded and transmitted.

Regards

That is my issue. It was transmitted through mere men, men who at times do forget something, that happens to anyone and that is something normal. That is why I'm saying that it can easily happen that at times some or all of them made this or that mistake in their narrations. Who can verify this? No one.

 

[SlaveOfGod]

Sure I did make mistakes... too many mistakes, unfortunately.



As a Christian I do not have a specific number of obligatory prayers per day, so I would not call it 'forgetting' to pray, but rather ignoring to pray, which is IMO even worse than forgetting.



OK, let me quote again what you said:



So we are having here:

1) the person transmitting is ... known not to make any error in reporting or transmitting - in other words this person does not forget anything, never!
2) The Prophet said ... he is only a man and that he forgets just like all other men - in other words he does forget sometimes something.

So how can it be that men who transmitted the ahadeeth are supposed to not have made any mistakes in their narrations, they never!? forgot anything (which can't be true, because even Muhammad admitted that he did forget at times something); but Muhammad who is supposed to have received the Final Revelation (Qur'an) from God, and who had to memorize what the angel Gabriel brought down to him, he admitted that it could happen for him to sometimes forget something. Do you see now what I'm trying to say?



That is my issue. It was transmitted through mere men, men who at times do forget something, that happens to anyone and that is something normal. That is why I'm saying that it can easily happen that at times some or all of them made this or that mistake in their narrations. Who can verify this? No one.

Becky you are assuming that a person "not making an error in transmitting" means that this person did not forget anything. This is simply not true and not what I mean, apologies if I haven't made it clear to you. Transmitting the text means being able to memorise the words of the Prophet and being able to transmit that to another person word for word. Just like as is done with the Quran in the past and today.

 

[elwill]

Becky , don't forget that one of the criteria we have in the science of the hadeeth is the existence of many different chains of narrators

which means that different people narrated the same hadeeth from the prophet directly

when the hadeeth have just one chain of narrator which means that only one who heared the hadeeth directly from the prophet , so it will not be sahih even if the narrator was trustworthy

afterall , we have hadeeth from the prophet where he said to his people that after his death many lies will attributed to him , then he command them to compare whatever the hear with words of God , so if they found contradictions they should to refuse it and if they find no contradictions , they can accept it

 

[Beckyy25]

it's okey , ithought that may be you misquoted it , but i understood now your intensions

anyway , i didn't deny that all three verses refering to the same battle

So that means they were referring to the same battle. First Allah sent 1,000 angels, then 3,000 and then 5,000. A total of 8,000 angels. Is that correct?

the all problem is with misunderstanding of the verses
the verses which mentioned to not take disbelievers as friends was mistranslated as for the word "friend" not accurate translation for the arabic word "waley" , it should to be allies not firends , it's political aspect of view

Again a 'problem' because of the Arabic language. One like me who does not know which Arabic word has been used here, and who does not know what its intended meaning is in the context in which it is used, easily gets things wrong.

Thanks for the explanation.

and again the verses which mentioned us to kill them are refere to those who allready imposed the wars upon us

60-8 - God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loveth those who are just.​

60-9 - God only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.​

OK.

yes i agree with you he is very great scholar , but it dosn't mean that we should to agree with every word of him , no one is perfect . after all he interpret his own human understanding

Maybe you do not believe what he said regarding this issue, but maybe others do and take what he said literally.

but anyway what Ibn kathir said is

(then fight the Mushrikin wherever you find them), means, on the earth in general, except for the Sacred Area, for Allah said,
(And fight not with them at Al-Masjid Al-Haram, unless they fight you there. But if they attack you, then fight them. )[2:191]

i think that he clarifying the prohibition to fight in the sacred mosque except if it was very necessery to fight there .
so if the war was allready prepared so make the place of war anywhere in earth but in the sacred mosque

i think that he interpret the verses in the situations of war either

That is open to interpretation IMO.

no it dosn't sound nice at all , i agree with you
but i believe either that it isn't my religion , when mohammed (pbuh) conquered mekkah , he didn't force any one to be muslim
the prophet and his companion after his death , never killed those civilians who didnt accept islam as a religion

I read something else. I read (unfortunately I do not have the link anymore) that he (Muhammad) wrote letters to all kings at that time who ruled in that area, asking them to convert to Islam. And he went to fight against those who did not accept his offer.
So is this information correct or not?​

 

[Beckyy25]

Becky you are assuming that a person "not making an error in transmitting" means that this person did not forget anything. This is simply not true and not what I mean, apologies if I haven't made it clear to you. Transmitting the text means being able to memorise the words of the Prophet and being able to transmit that to another person word for word. Just like as is done with the Quran in the past and today.

Hmm... so you believe a person who does memorize something (in this case the Qur'an and Sunnah) is excluded from forgetting something from the memorized things?

The simple fact of memorizing something is IMO not a guarantee of transmitting this information to another person without errors.

 

[Beckyy25]

Becky , don't forget that one of the criteria we have in the science of the hadeeth is the existence of many different chains of narrators

which means that different people narrated the same hadeeth from the prophet directly

when the hadeeth have just one chain of narrator which means that only one who heared the hadeeth directly from the prophet , so it will not be sahih even if the narrator was trustworthy

afterall , we have hadeeth from the prophet where he said to his people that after his death many lies will attributed to him , then he command them to compare whatever the hear with words of God , so if they found contradictions they should to refuse it and if they find no contradictions , they can accept it

I do understand the procedure of testing the authenticity of ahadeeth. I do also understand that there are scholars whos job is to verify these things. And I do not doubt that nowadays this information is passed on accurately, as we have computers for that. My doubt is that the ones who first wrote the ahadeeth down started making mistakes. I don't say they made them intentionally, maybe it was really just erroneously, but the possibility is there that they made mistakes. And no one can verify that. That is why I am also saying that to some degree you simply have to believe that what they wrote down was also the truth.