Any other book

[DD2008]

Please choose 3 passages believed to be the strongest evidence for the claim and we can go from there.

Go where from there? The guys wanted to know where the idea that the scriptures are the written word of God came from.

As shown, this truth comes from scripture itself and is the teaching of Christ. Christians follow the teachings of Christ.

 

[Poverello78]

Where in the Bible is scripture called "the word of God"? I was under the impression that Christ Himself was the Word, not any texts written about Him or His followers.

One other thing to consider as well: When anyone in the New Testament uses the word "scripture", they are referring to what is contained within the Old Testament. Nowhere that I know of is anyone claiming that what they were currently writing is "scripture".

Just some thoughts.

 

[DD2008]

Where in the Bible is scripture called "the word of God"? I was under the impression that Christ Himself was the Word, not any texts written about Him or His followers.

One other thing to consider as well: When anyone in the New Testament uses the word "scripture", they are referring to what is contained within the Old Testament. Nowhere that I know of is anyone claiming that what they were currently writing is "scripture".

Just some thoughts.

Christ referring to Scripture as the word of God:

Matthew 15:6 ESV
6 he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God.

Mark 7:3 ESV
13 thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

Peter referring to Pauls writings as scripture:

2 Peter 3:15-16 ESV
15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

 

[Poverello78]

Ok, great! I recant what I said about the New Testament authors and accept them as having regarded their own writings as scripture. Thank you for pointing that out.

I'm going to research those words of Christ, however, since it could mean something more "spiritual" than scriptural text.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

None of those passages support your claim....that's why I asked for 3 and I suspect that was dodged because a laundry list always looks more impressive than even a cursory study and it is known the claim cannot be successfully defended.

Go where from there? The guys wanted to know where the idea that the scriptures are the written word of God came from.

As shown, this truth comes from scripture itself and is the teaching of Christ. Christians follow the teachings of Christ.

 

[DD2008]

None of those passages support your claim....that's why I asked for 3 and I suspect that was dodged because a laundry list always looks more impressive than even a cursory study and it is known the claim cannot be successfully defended.

Actually all of those passages support my claim, that was a very condensed list, and the message therein is clear.

You can't change the words on the page. You either accept them or reject them.

Christ referring to Scripture as the word of God and saying it cannot be broken:

Matthew 15:6 ESV
6 he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God.

Mark 7:3 ESV
13 thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

John 10:35 ESV
35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—

St. Irenaeus (180 AD) was in agreement with Christ:

"Things of that kind we must leave to God, the One who made us, knowing full well that the Scriptures are certainly perfect, since they were spoken by the Word of God and by His Spirit." -Against Heresies.

So was St. Justin Martyr (148 AD):

"When you hear the words of the Prophets, spoken as it were personally, do not imagine that they are spoken by the inspired persons themselves. It is the Divine Word who moves them." -First Apology.

So was St. Clement (A.D. 80):

"Brethren, be contentious and zealous for the things which lead to salvation! You have studied the Holy Scriptures, which are true and are of the Holy Spirit. You well know that nothing unjust or fraudulent is in them." -Letter to the Corinthians.

All ECF quotes taken from The Faith of the Early Fathers by William A. Jurgens ISBN: 0-8146-0432-3

 

[David Brider]

There are many scriptures that directly imply that the scriptures are authoritative because they are the written word of God recorded by his power. Below are some major ones:

Isaiah 55:11 ESV
11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

Matthew 22:29 ESV
29 But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.

Matthew 15:6 ESV
6 he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God.

Matthew 4:4 ESV
4 But he answered, “It is written,
“‘Man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

Mark 7:3 ESV
13 thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

Acts 18:11 ESV
11 And he stayed a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

John 8:47 ESV
47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

John 10:35 ESV
35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—

Luke 24:27 ESV
27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

Acts 17:2 ESV
2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

Acts 18:28 ESV
28 for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, showing by the Scriptures that the Christ was Jesus.

Romans 1:2 ESV
2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures,

1 Timothy 4:13 ESV
13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching.

2 Peter 1:20-21 ESV
20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. 21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

2 Peter 3:15-16 ESV
15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

Ephesians 2:19:20 ESV
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,

2 Timothy 3:16-17 ESV
16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of Godmay be competent, equipped for every good work.

Why We Believe the Bible, Part 1 :: Desiring God Christian Resource Library

Trouble is, none of those passages make the claim that "the Word of God" and "Scripture" are the same thing.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

The problem is trying to make "word" literally mean text when that isn't what it means at all just like "Word" in John 1-1-3.

Know what strange? In all of your laundry lists you haven't included the passage that explicitly defines the Word of God.

Actually all of those passages support my claim, that was a very condensed list, and the message therein is clear.

You can't change the words on the page. You either accept them or reject them.

Christ referring to Scripture as the word of God and saying it cannot be broken:

Matthew 15:6 ESV
6 he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God.

Mark 7:3 ESV
13 thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

John 10:35 ESV
35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—

St. Irenaeus (180 AD) was in agreement with Christ:

"Things of that kind we must leave to God, the One who made us, knowing full well that the Scriptures are certainly perfect, since they were spoken by the Word of God and by His Spirit." -Against Heresies.

So was St. Justin Martyr (148 AD):

"When you hear the words of the Prophets, spoken as it were personally, do not imagine that they are spoken by the inspired persons themselves. It is the Divine Word who moves them." -First Apology.

So was St. Clement (A.D. 80):

"Brethren, be contentious and zealous for the things which lead to salvation! You have studied the Holy Scriptures, which are true and are of the Holy Spirit. You well know that nothing unjust or fraudulent is in them." -Letter to the Corinthians.

All ECF quotes taken from The Faith of the Early Fathers by William A. Jurgens ISBN: 0-8146-0432-3

 

[Catherineanne]

Christians follow the teachings of Christ.

You are mistaken, I am afraid.

We follow Christ, not his teachings. You may think this is the same thing, but actually it is not. It is a very different thing indeed.

Our God is not a set of teachings in a book. Our God is alive, and we walk beside him every day of our lives. His words are life, and truth. And they are not (just) written in the Bible, but on our hearts.

 

[Catherineanne]

Know what strange? In all of your laundry lists you haven't included the passage that explicitly defines the Word of God.

 

[Catherineanne]

Trouble is, none of those passages make the claim that "the Word of God" and "Scripture" are the same thing.

 

[Jase]

Christ referring to Scripture as the word of God:

Matthew 15:6 ESV
6 he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God.

Mark 7:3 ESV
13 thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

Peter referring to Pauls writings as scripture:

2 Peter 3:15-16 ESV
15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

And why is it that Protestants don't accept this appeal to "other scripture" to also refer to anything found in the Apocrypha?

 

[herev]

Christ referring to Scripture as the word of God:

Matthew 15:6 ESV
6 he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God.

the word in Greek is entole, which is: "commandment" or "instruction", probably referring to Torah AND the pharisaic oral law, not referring specifically to scripture

Mark 7:3 ESV
13 thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

the word here is logos, the same word used to discuss Christ in John 1:1.
It does not refer specifically to the written word, but rather to the emanation of God, that which comes from God's being, it is the outward expression of God's invisible thought.

Peter referring to Pauls writings as scripture:

2 Peter 3:15-16 ESV
15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

ANYTIME an author of the NT speaks of Scripture, they are speaking specifically of the OT (usually Torah, sometimes the Tanakh)
This is but ONE reason that the attribution of this letter to THE apostle Peter is in serious doubt. NT scripture simply did not exist in any way shape or form at the time of St Peter's DEATH. There are actually many, many reasons to question the author being THE Peter, but this is one of them.
Additionally, the letter can be read to understand that the author was referring to their wresting of OT scripture when he speaks of what specifically that Paul writes to them about.
hence the author was saying:
Paul has written about these things (specific scriptures in holy living)
the people "twist" them to their own understanding instead
just as they do other scriptures.

Either way, there simply was no NT scripture until after the authors were all dead--period. So there are two options:
1. they weren't written by who you think they are (as in the pastoral epistles and probably both epistles of Peter)
2. if they refer to Scripture, it must be OT they refer to

 

[DD2008]

The problem is trying to make "word" literally mean text when that isn't what it means at all just like "Word" in John 1-1-3.

Know what strange? In all of your laundry lists you haven't included the passage that explicitly defines the Word of God.

The Word of God is Christ himself.

John 1:1 ESV
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

It is also the words that come from the mouth of God. As Christ pointed out in

Matthew 15:6 ESV
6 he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God.

and

Mark 7:3 ESV
13 thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

Christ is never wrong.

Everyone involved inthe context of this passage learned the commandment to honor your father and mother from the same place - Scripture, thus according to Christ what is written in scripture is the Word of God and cannot be broken.

John 10:35 ESV
35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—

You are mistaken, I am afraid.

We follow Christ, not his teachings. You may think this is the same thing, but actually it is not. It is a very different thing indeed.

Our God is not a set of teachings in a book. Our God is alive, and we walk beside him every day of our lives. His words are life, and truth. And they are not (just) written in the Bible, but on our hearts.

It is true that our God is alive and for the Christian his words are written in our hearts. However, our God is also God of revelation. The entire bible is the story of him revealing himself to the world. God does not change and does not contradict himself. Therefore, when out of his own mouth he told us the the scriptures are the word of God and cannot be broken we know that they are indeed true. So, if we love Christ we will follow his teachings:

John 14:21 ESV
21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”

The canon of scripture is all of the God inspired writings of the apostles and prophets that the Church is built upon:

Ephesians 2:19-20 ESV
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,

If we listen to the prophets and apostles we listen to the Spirit of Truth. If not we create our own religion and wallow in the spirit of error. God's revelation will never contradict his written word.

1 John 4:6 ESV
6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Malachi 3:6 ESV
6 “For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.

Thus the scriptures are inspired by God to make us competant in every good work that can be done:

2 Timothy 3:16-17 ESV
16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of Godmay be competent, equipped for every good work.

Thus the bible is as clear on the doctrine of sola scriptura as it is on the canon and it's own inerrancy. If there is any good work needed in faith and practice that the man of God needs to be equipped for that is not included in scripture then this passage isn't true. Since we know that this passage is true because it is Holy Scripture (the written Word of God) we know that every work the man of God needs to be trained for is included within the pages of Holy Scripture.

Trouble is, none of those passages make the claim that "the Word of God" and "Scripture" are the same thing.

Matthew 15:6 and Mark 7:3 are abundantly clear that the scriptures are the Word of God. The Commandment Christ was accusing the hypocrits of making void was learned by everyone present from the Holy Scriptures.

That's why they're called holy Scripture, because they are the written word of God:

Romans 1:2 ESV
2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures

And why is it that Protestants don't accept this appeal to "other scripture" to also refer to anything found in the Apocrypha?

As shown above the canon of scripture is all of the writings of the Prophets (both OT and NT) and Apostles. That is really how simple the canon is, those people spoke for God, their writings are the inspired Holy Scripture that the Church is built upon.

Ephesians 2:19-20 ESV
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,

We are commanded to listen to them:

2 Peter 1:19-21 ESV
19 And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. 21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.


Guys, here are some links to review. I also advise that you select a version of the Bible you can understand and study it everyday. Don't leave anything out. Read it through over and over again. The ESV is the best one we have available right now. Try the ESV Study Bible. It is superb!

Home (ESV Bible Online) This is the searchable ESV I use.

Home | ESV Study Bible | Crossway This is a superb Study Bible.

Why We Believe the Bible, Part 1 :: Desiring God Christian Resource Library
John Piper's Seminar on Why we believe the Bible.

The Bible Is God's Word :: Grace to You
John Macarthur's Sermon on the Bible as God's word.

Monergism :: Search Results
A plethora of links on Biblical inerrancy.

IS THE BIBLE INERRANT?
Dr. John M. Frame on Biblical Inerrancy.

The Inspiration of Scripture (by Ron Rhodes)
Ron Rhodes on the Bible.

R.C. Sproul: Scripture Alone Video
Dr. Sproul on Sola Scriptura

 

[DD2008]

It does not refer specifically to the written word, but rather to the emanation of God, that which comes from God's being, it is the outward expression of God's invisible thought.

1. Christ was referring to the commandment that was learned by all from the Scriptures, thus he was teaching scripture is the Word of God. In Matthew 15 and Mark 7. That is abundantly clear.

Either way, there simply was no NT scripture until after the authors were all dead--period. So there are two options:
1. they weren't written by who you think they are (as in the pastoral epistles and probably both epistles of Peter)
2. if they refer to Scripture, it must be OT they refer to

2. This passage:

2 Peter 3:15-16 ESV
15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

Prooves beyond a shadow of a doubt that NT authors writings (Paul explicitly) were received as Holy Scripture and used in the worship of the Church during their lifetimes.

 

[Catherineanne]

So, if we love Christ we will follow his teachings

Here it is again, as it appears to have passed you by, at a great height:

We do not follow Christ's teachings. We follow Christ.

The two are not the same.

Any person, of any faith, can claim to follow Christ's teaching. Only a Christian can claim to follow the Lord.

QED.

 

[DD2008]

Here it is again, as it appears to have passed you by, at a great height:

We do not follow Christ's teachings. We follow Christ.

The two are not the same.

Any person, of any faith, can claim to follow Christ's teaching. Only a Christian can claim to follow the Lord.

QED.

I see you didn't read the post at all, as you responded immediatly after I posted it...

This passage contradicts your philosophy:

John 14:21 ESV
21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”

So, does this one:

1 John 4:6 ESV
6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.


We are not allowed to cast aside God as revealed in scripture to make up our own religion.


I know I'm postint this on one of the most liberal and errant boards in all of CF. I imagine it's a waste of time showing you anything from scripture at all since you have professed many times on these boards to simply not believe it.

So, I have wrote what I have wrote. It is true, you can read it or not. The links are there for anyone who cares.

Goodbye.

 

[Catherineanne]

I see you didn't read the post at all, as you responded immediatly after I posted it...

I read very fast.

Here it is again, slowly this time.

Christians ..... do ..... not ..... follow ..... Christ's ...... teachings ...... . They ..... follow ...... CHRIST ..... himself.



You want Scripture? Here it is:

I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man cometh to the Father but through me.

NB, not through the Bible, not just through his teachings, however marvellous, but through Christ himself.

I imagine it's a waste of time showing you anything from scripture at all since you have professed many times on these boards to simply not believe it.

Evidence?

I have never said I do not believe what the Bible says. I have often said I do not believe what people claim for it, when their claims cannot be substantiated in Scripture except by fantasy.

Again, completely different thing. My faith is Christocentric, and I am not ashamed to say it. It is Christ himself who is the Alpha and the Omega. He is the cornerstone and the rock of our faith. It is he we follow.

You can call this making up a religion if you like. That is your choice. Me, I call it the faith of our fathers and forefathers.

We are not allowed to cast aside God as revealed in scripture to make up our own religion.

Indeed not. Didn't stop Luther though, did it?

 

[wayseer]

(snipped)
Here it is again, slowly this time.

Christians ..... do ..... not ..... follow ..... Christ's ...... teachings ...... . They ..... follow ...... CHRIST ..... himself.

You want Scripture? Here it is:

I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man cometh to the Father but through me.

NB, not through the Bible, not just through his teachings, however marvellous, but through Christ himself.

I have never said I do not believe what the Bible says. I have often said I do not believe what people claim for it, when their claims cannot be substantiated in Scripture except by fantasy.

Again, completely different thing. My faith is Christocentric, and I am not ashamed to say it. It is Christ himself who is the Alpha and the Omega. He is the cornerstone and the rock of our faith. It is he we follow.

I can only endorse CA words -

Our response to Jesus' message is the same today as it was 2000 years ago - either you 'get it' or you don't.

In those days many people heard and were amazed - but did nothing. Today it is the same - many read the Bible but do not 'hear' the words of Jesus at all. What they hear is what they would like to hear - nice, safe, comfortable ego stroking rhetoric. And then, much like the Pharisees, construct their own reality by which means they ensure their comfortable indifference to those who might actually 'hear' what Jesus was actually on about. And what Jesus was on about had nothing to do with keeping books about what is, or what is not, 'the word of God'.

 

[herev]

1. Christ was referring to the commandment that was learned by all from the Scriptures, thus he was teaching scripture is the Word of God. In Matthew 15 and Mark 7. That is abundantly clear.

Christ was referring to the Logos. What you see as abundantly clear is simply not. In fact, it is because the word itself is so difficult to translate into English that the use of the word, "WORD" came into being for this case and in John 1. There simply is no good translation:
λόγος (logos 3056)
1. word -s
the word (not in the grammatical sense like ῥῆμα (rēma 4487) but) the spoken word; the word, not in its outward form, but as connected with the inward thought; the word, not written, but spoken; the word, not as apart of speech, but as part of what is uttered.
there is simply no "abundantly clear" translation.
As Christ was speaking of the law, which was considered in Hebrew tradition to emanate from God as a visible manifestation of YHVH himself, Christ thus said in that chapter that their traditions were making null and void that which emanated from God himself--in this case as revealed in Torah, yes, but the word logos does not refer specifically to Scripture--they had a word for that--it was no logos. Logos is more complicated.

ETA, in this case, logos may refer to what CAME FROM SCRIPTURE, but it is never to be translated as scripture

2. This passage:

2 Peter 3:15-16 ESV
15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

Prooves beyond a shadow of a doubt that NT authors writings (Paul explicitly) were received as Holy Scripture and used in the worship of the Church during their lifetimes.

saying it forcefully doesn't make it any more factual. There was no NT scripture during the life of the authors of the scripture--period. There were letters that were passed around and read--many, many, many of them--only a handful of which were later included in the NT canon, but not only is it not PROOF, it is not even evidence of such unless you want to ignore historical fact.