Any other book

Status
Not open for further replies.

Jadin Xquire

Junior Member
Jul 1, 2009
233
7
✟7,898.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
For anyone to claim their people to have history then their forefathers would have to be in the documents. Hebrew people are in the OT/NT. These books both have historical facts of Judaism/The Law in both OT/NT. Gal 4:1-7(KJV) both mention servant(Jews in Judaism) and heir(Christians). Since it mentions Jews in the NT it is still part of the history for the Jews under the law. I'm not saying that it only is Judaism history but I'm saying the NT is both Judaism and Christian history. It even mentions Gnostics in John's epistles and the book of Jude.
 
Upvote 0

wayseer

Well-Known Member
Jun 10, 2008
8,226
503
Maryborough, QLD, Australia
✟11,121.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
These books both have historical facts

Depends on what you mean by 'historical facts'.

'Facts' are provably by some some process. 'History' may or may not be 'fact'. The narratives connected in the Bible are stories - they may or may not contain fact.
 
Upvote 0

OzSpen

Regular Member
Oct 15, 2005
11,541
707
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
Visit site
✟125,343.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
Wayseer,
You have demonstrated exactly what I have been saying - you are working from a position that the Bible is inerrant and infallible. No doubt there are any number of academics that support that position. But none of these are convincing and cannot adequately explain the glaring inconsistencies contained in the Bible. In an attempt to explain away these inconsistencies the references you cite do little more than create a climate of spin and manipulation which has no other agenda than to support their, and your, premise - that the Bible is inerrant anyway. Such circular arguments are hardly scholarly.

If you want to impress me you might begin by demonstrating how many of your references critique the story that the earth was created in six days. But I've asked you this before and you have failed to provide any adequate response other than quoting yet more references as if quoting references is the sole mechanism of your thinking.
You have demonstrated exactly what I have been saying. I provide you with scholarly support of the inerrancy of Scripture in Dr. Greg Bahnsen's "The inerrancy of the autographa," and you provide ZERE evidence to refute him.

What do you do? You erect a straw man logical fallacy:
If you want to impress me you might begin by demonstrating how many of your references critique the story that the earth was created in six days.

You are not interested in examining a scholarly defense of the biblical doctrine of the inerrancy of Scripture, so I'll leave you to your own ruminations.
 
Upvote 0

Jadin Xquire

Junior Member
Jul 1, 2009
233
7
✟7,898.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Depends on what you mean by 'historical facts'.

'Facts' are provably by some some process. 'History' may or may not be 'fact'. The narratives connected in the Bible are stories - they may or may not contain fact.


I understand that the bible is the word of God. Would the word of God have room for lies? What part of the bible are you stating that may not contain facts? What verse(s) do you speak of?

Are you saying that all the verses containing Pharisees, Saducees, or Jews of Judaism in NT, didn't take place in reality? Are you saying that it is fiction?
 
Upvote 0

wayseer

Well-Known Member
Jun 10, 2008
8,226
503
Maryborough, QLD, Australia
✟11,121.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I understand that the bible is the word of God. Would the word of God have room for lies?

What you illustrate here is the very reason I challenge your theology that the Bible must be taken literally.

Because you cannot adequate defend your position you end up making outlandish claims in order to shore up your own position. What you are saying is that because I don't agree with you that the Bible is inerrant that the Bible is therefore a pack of lies. This is the house of cards scenario. Then you add more cards ...

What part of the bible are you stating that may not contain facts? What verse(s) do you speak of?

... and more ...

Are you saying that all the verses containing Pharisees, Saducees, or Jews of Judaism in NT, didn't take place in reality? Are you saying that it is fiction?

... and all you are doing is demonstrating is that everyone must agree with your position or they are - what - unChristian?

This is the very reason that I cannot accept your theology. The theology of inerrancy actually paints itself into a corner from which there is no escape other than to blame everyone else for the inherent problems with which the theology of inerrancy is riddled.

So my question to you is the same as to OzPen, who I note has taken himself off the discussion rather than attempt an answer. Well he might.

Question - convince me the earth way made is six days.

OzPen cannot and neither can you without resorting to the house of cards theology.

You cannot because the Bible was never meant to be taken literally. The Truth it carries is moved through time on the power of narrative and myth.

The Bible does not lie - but it speaks in a language you apparently cannot hear - and because you cannot hear that language you can only rely on the 'inerrancy' rule .
 
Upvote 0

Jadin Xquire

Junior Member
Jul 1, 2009
233
7
✟7,898.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
What you illustrate here is the very reason I challenge your theology that the Bible must be taken literally.

Because you cannot adequate defend your position you end up making outlandish claims in order to shore up your own position. What you are saying is that because I don't agree with you that the Bible is inerrant that the Bible is therefore a pack of lies. This is the house of cards scenario. Then you add more cards ...



... and more ...



... and all you are doing is demonstrating is that everyone must agree with your position or they are - what - unChristian?

This is the very reason that I cannot accept your theology. The theology of inerrancy actually paints itself into a corner from which there is no escape other than to blame everyone else for the inherent problems with which the theology of inerrancy is riddled.

So my question to you is the same as to OzPen, who I note has taken himself off the discussion rather than attempt an answer. Well he might.

Question - convince me the earth way made is six days.

OzPen cannot and neither can you without resorting to the house of cards theology.

You cannot because the Bible was never meant to be taken literally. The Truth it carries is moved through time on the power of narrative and myth.

The Bible does not lie - but it speaks in a language you apparently cannot hear - and because you cannot hear that language you can only rely on the 'inerrancy' rule .


No I never stated you have to agree with me. It isn't my word but the Word of God. You didn't answer the question(s). Now what verses do you say were not literal concerning Pharisee, Sadducee, Jews in Judaism? I can see we don't agree on certain things. I understand that. I'm just wanting to know which verse(s) wasn't literal concerning jews in Judaism in NT.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Jadin Xquire

Junior Member
Jul 1, 2009
233
7
✟7,898.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Quoted by Wayseer:

"The Bible does not lie - but it speaks in a language you apparently cannot hear - and because you cannot hear that language you can only rely on the 'inerrancy' rule ."

So you are stating the bible is true. It is just you are confused on understanding the word of God in certain parts. I can't say the same since the Holy Spirits interprets the word of God for me. The bible tells us to rely for interpretation from the Holy Spirit. If you are reading and trying to comprehend the bible without the Holy Spirit then that is like banging your head on concrete. You will have a hard time. You will not be accurate without the Holy Spirit.
 
Upvote 0

Jadin Xquire

Junior Member
Jul 1, 2009
233
7
✟7,898.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Quoted by Wayseer:

"Question - convince me the earth way made is six days."

That is easy.


The earth wasn't made in six days. After the first flood(Gen 1:2) the earth was remade in six days.
2 Peter 3:8 (New International Version)


8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.


Genesis 1:26-31 (New International Version)


26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.




We know that Adam was born on the sixth day. We know Adam lived 930 years on earth.

Genesis 5:5 (New International Version)

5 Altogether, Adam lived 930 years, and then he died.


So the theory that each day was a thousand years in the re-creation is not logical. Think about it. If a day was actually a thousand years then Adam would have died before the seventh day happened. That isn't the case. Adam lived pass that "sixth day". So the days were literal days and not years.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

wayseer

Well-Known Member
Jun 10, 2008
8,226
503
Maryborough, QLD, Australia
✟11,121.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Quoted by Wayseer:

You will not be accurate without the Holy Spirit.

At the risk of repeating myself - all you are doing is demonstrating is that everyone must agree with your position or they are - what - unChristian?

You are in a position to judge others?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jadin Xquire

Junior Member
Jul 1, 2009
233
7
✟7,898.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
At the risk of repeating myself - all you are doing is demonstrating is that everyone must agree with your position or they are - what - unChristian?

You are in a position to judge others?

My position is the same as Paul's claim. Not to judge the world and the Christians who struggle with sin. Paul only brings judgment on Christians who treat the Grace of God as a pass to do willful sexual immorality, coveting, idolatry, re·vile
prime.gif
ment(i.e.: Abusively scolding at someone), or a drunkard, or an extortioner(i.e.:a criminal who extorts money from someone by threatening to expose embarrassing information about them). That is willful sinning without care.

1 Corinthians 5:1-4 (New King James Version)

1 Corinthians 5

Immorality Defiles the Church

1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you(Christians), and such sexual immorality as is not even named[a] among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up(Proud in the sin), and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Corinthians 5:9-13 (New King James Version)

Immorality Must Be Judged


9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside?(What do I have to do with judging the world...That is God's place to judge the world and not mine) Do you not judge those who are inside?(Paul already knew Christians judge Christians...There is nothing new under the sun) 13 But those who are outside God judges.(God's job and not mine) Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”(There stay away from "so-called" Christians. They have no intention to stop willful sinning. They are worse than the people of the world)[a]

What is Sexual Immorality?
If a person commits sexual and/or Lustful acts with another person and they aren't married too each other then this is considered Sexual Immorality. It is because no marriage(union) is establish that makes it Sexual Immorality. All sexual and/or Lustful acts is meant between a husband and wife. These acts out of marriage is out of order according to God's definition of marriage.

Of Course if I talk to a Christian with a mindset of "We can sin all we want and grace will be there", then I will try to council the person, with love in my advice, to the direction the bible teaches believers how to be Christians. Not to be legalistic and not to abuse the Grace of God at the same time. Both are extremes that give Christianity a sour taste to the mouth. Paul judges a certain group of Christians who indulge in Sexual Immorality. He instructs "Faithful" Christians to stay away and not even eat, at the same table, with these particular Christians. This is a rightful judgment.

Let us see what Jesus said about Judging.....
Matthew 7:1-5 (New International Version)

Matthew 7

Judging Others

1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

This is my personal testimony to the world. If I am not indulging in Sexual Immorality anymore could you still Judge me with under the "same measure"? How can you? I stop my sexual immorality as of April/2008. That is why Paul, in Romans 1 & 1 Corinthians 5, judges the Christians who indulge in Sexual Immorality. Paul wasn't in Sexual Immorality. That is why he judges people who call themselves "Brothers/Christians" who indulges in Sexual Immorality.


3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?


I took out my "speck of sawdust" from my "eye" as of April/2008. Since that "Speck of sawdust" is out of my life could I look at my bother's "speck" in his eye in a righteous manner? The answer is yes.





5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Jesus states that if the speck is out of your eye then we can look into helping brothers/sister to take the speck from their "eye". Since my "speck of sawdust" of Sexual Immorality is out of my eye then that does not make me a hypocrite to look at anyone else "speck(s)". Then I could look in my brother's eye to take out the speck/sin out of his/her eye. Judging is only wrong when you are in the same sin as your brother/sister in Christ, when you are not out of that strong hold in your life. Once you are out of the "sin(s)" then you can rightfully help your brother/sister, with love, in his/her situation.

You guys think Judging is a "Curse-Word". That it is such a bad thing. It isn't when done in love. We are to do it in love and tell your brother/sister what sin he/her is struggling with and helping him/her out of that sin. That is assuming your brother/sister wants to stop sin. If not then he/she commits willful sin/lawlessness. Lawlessness is punishable by Hell/Second Death/Lake of Fire by God, in
Matthew 13:41-42.

This also applies to women. For example, when Jesus fed the multitudes with the loaves of bread and fishes it never mentioned the women and Children. By scholars, it is understood there are women and children to each of the men in the event when Jesus fed the multitudes. i.e.: 5000( including women and children there....10000 to 12000 people in all considering all wives and children.) who were fed that day. With that understood we can apply this to other illustrations in the bible to other verses to men and women alike.

Matthew 7:1-5, Matthew 5:27-30, etc.....
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Jadin Xquire

Junior Member
Jul 1, 2009
233
7
✟7,898.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Exactly. So the Bible is not inerrant.

I mean no disrespect but what is the reason for asking me the question in the first place? What did it prove? Oh I just saw your post(s) with answering the other brother in Christ. I sense "ego" in your post. Do you feel better at looking down to your brother in Christ now that you're right in your answer? Die daily in the flesh. Show love to others that may not have the amount of knowledge you possess. Don't look down on others. If another person is wrong and you know it, after correction, don't "rub" in their face. You are no better than any of your brothers/sisters in Christ. It feeds the flesh when you do that. Pride creeps in. I'm sure if you are challenged by God, Himself, as God challenged Job you won't feel very good either. Job felt horrible when God question him about Creation. Above all things show love in your actions.

OzSpen did provide evidence. Regardless if it were true or not. You haven't show any evidence and accused him of a certain "Theology". Is he wrong for providing evidence? At least he attempt to back up his claim. What have you done? Not only have you not showed evidence but you ridiculed him in open forum for others to see. I used to do that. Back in the past, I notice my ways weren't being a good example as a Christian so I stop judging in that matter on Forums. Show love.

Same goes for you OzSpen. These worthless debates do not edify the spirit. All it does is bring division in the body of Christ when we argue on minor details. What does it matter if the world was made in 6 days or 6 million years? Does this help people get closer to Christ? No it doesn't. So what is the point in meaningless debates that doesn't contribute to helping people get salvation through Jesus Christ? We are brothers in Christ right? Let's build each other up and not tear each other down.

P.S.: If for any reason, Wayseer, your actions caused OzSpen to lose faith in Christ because of your post(s) then the blame would be on you. God will hold you responsible. That is sin against Christ himself. Please lets edify the Body of Christ and not tear the body down. If one part of the body is hurting then the whole body feels the hurt.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

wayseer

Well-Known Member
Jun 10, 2008
8,226
503
Maryborough, QLD, Australia
✟11,121.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I mean no disrespect but

If you mean no disrespect wherefore the BUT?

You accused me of all sorts of things because I asked a question?

I asked you to demonstrate to me how the Bible is inerrant. All I have been given is reference to a whole range of people but my question is avoided until just recently. The answer was more than obvious at the outset - the Bible cannot claim any rule of inerrancy - it is at odds with itself and with science - the earth as we know it took many billions of year to form.

Yet there are some, including yourself apparently, who insist that the Bible is inerrant in all its detail. In doing so you are dumbing down the Bible. You then insist that everyone likewise has to be dumbed down. The truth is not obtained by insisting that the obvious is something else other than the obvious. Jesus had the same problems - convincing others that adhering to the dumbing and numbing effects of the law had nothing to do with faith nor with God.

The alternative to truth is that we live a lie - that we 'pretend' that the truth is something that it is not for the sake of the few who insist that the earth is still flat in the 21st century.

I have said nothing contradictory to accepted Christian doctrine. But I have questioned those who insist that the Bible is to be treated as the inerrant words of God. Those who deny self-evident truths might be more culpable than those who ask questions.
 
Upvote 0

brinny

everlovin' shiner of light in dark places
Supporter
Mar 23, 2004
248,783
114,476
✟1,339,553.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
Let's engage in fantasy for a moment like Darwinists do and pretend that the bible wasn't written by God but by a fallible human author, particularly a fiction novelist since the secular world claims that the bible is fiction.

Would you argue and fight about words in a fiction book and try to change the words in it? :eek: How much time would you spend trying to change the ending of "Little red Riding Hood" to make the "Big Bad Wolf" into a good guy?^_^

If a fiction author said that the Flying Spaghetti Monster condemned you to hell, would you get furious and slander the author?:D

Of course not...unless you had some kind of mental disorder. Yet that's what the secular world tries to do with the bible that they claim is fiction. :eek: So either the secular world is so deluded that they can't tell fact from fantasy, or they know deep inside that the bible is the infallible Word of God, or both.

That's called suppression. Suppression is when someone consciously tries to deny something he knows to be true in his sub-conscience. An example of that is an alcoholic who is drunk most of his life and denies that he as a drinking problem.

I've asked this same question before to atheists and their response was;

"We're not afraid of the bible, we're afraid of Christians who believe the bible.'

My response to them is; Are you afraid of "Trekkies" (Star Trek fans)?:eek: Are you afraid of the fans of Harry Potter books?^_^ And better yet, do you curse the "Big Bad Wolf", Darth Vader or any other fiction character you consider a villain? If they tried to convince you that those books are true, would you argue with them? Or would you dismiss them as lunatics?

So sorry, but trying to change the words of a book you claim is fiction betrays your real knowledge that you know the bible was written by God and is thus, true.;)

So God is right, as always, in Romans 1:18, "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godless men who have suppressed the truth by their wickedness." That it is. ;)

So instead of trying to prove God wrong or think you know better than God does, you would fare much better if you listened to Him because only He can determine your ultimate fate. ;)

God Himself says:

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." ~Hebrews 4:12
 
  • Like
Reactions: DD2008
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jadin Xquire

Junior Member
Jul 1, 2009
233
7
✟7,898.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
If you mean no disrespect wherefore the BUT?

You accused me of all sorts of things because I asked a question?

I asked you to demonstrate to me how the Bible is inerrant. All I have been given is reference to a whole range of people but my question is avoided until just recently. The answer was more than obvious at the outset - the Bible cannot claim any rule of inerrancy - it is at odds with itself and with science - the earth as we know it took many billions of year to form.

Yet there are some, including yourself apparently, who insist that the Bible is inerrant in all its detail. In doing so you are dumbing down the Bible. You then insist that everyone likewise has to be dumbed down. The truth is not obtained by insisting that the obvious is something else other than the obvious. Jesus had the same problems - convincing others that adhering to the dumbing and numbing effects of the law had nothing to do with faith nor with God.

The alternative to truth is that we live a lie - that we 'pretend' that the truth is something that it is not for the sake of the few who insist that the earth is still flat in the 21st century.

I have said nothing contradictory to accepted Christian doctrine. But I have questioned those who insist that the Bible is to be treated as the inerrant words of God. Those who deny self-evident truths might be more culpable than those who ask questions.

I never said the bible is inerrant or in error. My question was why does it matter how old the earth is. For argument sake it isn't a benefit to the body of Christ. Not only have I told you but also the other brother. I don't favor him over you and vice versa. Which is more important: That you are right on a subject or that your "right/action" could possibly cause a person to leave the faith?

Romans 14 (New International Version)

Romans 14

The Weak and the Strong

1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

You can read the whole chapter to get familiar with the concept. I have read your posts and they are beautifully put together. All I am saying is don't fight with another brother in Christ with disputable matters. By your actions does it bring Christians closer to edify the Church or does it do the opposite by bringing division in the Church. If you like it or not we are all brothers in Christ. Yes some brothers and sisters need to be discipline, but are you doing it in love or are you not? I not only told you but the other brother in Christ. I'm not favor him over you.

Yes always seek the truth and to teach others about truth but do it in love. What is the point to do it without love? This post is not only for you but for everyone. Even to myself is under this post. We need to show love to our brothers and sisters in Christ. If we being right in answer cause our brother and sister in Christ to fall away then it was an evil action on your part. God will hold you responsible if that happens. I agree with you on the earth being older than what creationist think, but do you have to rub it in your brother's face that he is wrong on the subject? Yes, if you can correct person(s) then do so. Just do it in love. If your brother doesn't accept your council then "dust off the sand from your sandals" and teach others who will listen to you.

Brother I am not against your knowledge on the subject. I am against the way you and the other brother handle the situation. There are other ways to handle disputable matters. Where is the unity?
 
Upvote 0

wayseer

Well-Known Member
Jun 10, 2008
8,226
503
Maryborough, QLD, Australia
✟11,121.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I never said the bible is inerrant or in error.


OK - sorry - I thought you were on the inerrancy bandwagon.

My question was why does it matter how old the earth is.

You are right - it matters little. My point was aimed those claiming the inerrancy of the Bible.

There is a growing body of Christians who have been lead to accept that everything in the Bible is true - that there are no contradictions - that the Bible therefore cannot be faulted.

To maintain that everything in the Bible must be taken as 'truth' serves little but adds confusion to those Christians struggling to understand the basics of their faith. To pretend that the Bible is something that is not is, in the final analysis, a type of fraud promoted in the name of God and does little to enhance the faith.

Brother I am not against your knowledge on the subject. I am against the way you and the other brother handle the situation. There are other ways to handle disputable matters. Where is the unity?

Point taken - thank you for your words.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.