Can God save whom He wants?

[beloved57]

You exercise it but only because God has enabled you to do so.

Yes and its Christ faith in the first place..its not of ourselves, its christ faith, the gift of God...paul says that i now live by the faith of the Son of God gal 2:

20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Simply, paul now lives by christ faith..

 

[cygnusx1]

Whatever God does in us is done because He caused it, but God will do nothing in us unless we choose to allow Him to do so. Only if He forces His will on us or program his will in us which He does not do. We are not robots.

how does God cause us to obey Him ....

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

how does God cause us to obey Him ....

Jud 1:24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
Jud 1:25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, {be} glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

who is able - δύναμαι (Present Participle)

1) to be able, have power whether by virtue of one's own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favourable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom
2) to be able to do something
3) to be capable, strong and powerful

God is omnipotent; He has the power to do what He promises us He will do. This is spoken of in the present tense - He is currently possesses the power and always will - His power in innate.

to keep - φυλάσσω (Aorist Infinitive)

1) to guard
a) to watch, keep watch
b) to guard or watch, have an eye upon: lest he escape
c) to guard a person (or thing) that he may remain safe
1) lest he suffer violence, be despoiled, etc. to protect
2) to protect one from a person or thing
3) to keep from being snatched away, preserve safe and unimpaired
4) to guard from being lost or perishing
5) to guard one's self from a thing
d) to guard i.e. care for, take care not to violate
1) to observe
2) to observe for one's self something to escape
a) to avoid, shun flee from
b) to guard for one's self (i.e. for one's safety's sake) so as not to violate, i.e. to keep, observe (the precepts of the Mosaic law)

He guards, protects, watches over, and keeps us. This is in the Aorist infinitive, rendering it to keep, to protect, to watch.

from falling - ἄπταιστος

1) not stumbling, standing firm, exempt from falling

So quite literally-

Now to Him who has the power and ability to watch over and to keep us standing firm

So some questions I would like to ask are: Who has the power? Who keeps us? Who is able?

Is it ourselves? Can we keep ourselves from stumbling? Can we keep ourselves standing firm?

I think not.

 

[Doveaman]

Joseph Smith used this same "special revelation" trick and look what that created... Why are you not allowing Scripture to speak plainly?

That is not what the text says! Why are you changing it so?

Romans 9:11
11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
​

This was a choice that God made completely apart from His foreknowledge. There is no such indication anywhere in this text! Stop giving me eisegesis.

Did Jesus give His life for every single individual person? I ask because the answer to this question will let me know a lot about how you view Scripture. If it were God's will that all men be saved, then all men would be saved otherwise God would not be sovereign. It really is that simple.

Absolutely amazing...

The Bible says, very plainly, that God hates certain people but you reject it because God is love. Do you really think that man deserves God's love? Is God morally obligated to love anybody? How is it a contradiction that God can love and hate at the same time?

Let me tell you something: it should never be "God is love therefore He can't hate." In reality it is "God is love, therefore He must hate." Do you love babies? Then you must hate abortion. Do you love African Americans? Then you must hate slavery. Do you love Jews? Then you must hate the Holocaust. Do you love Jesus? Then you must hate Satan. Do you love righteousness? Then you must hate sin.

You seem to think I am ascribing the same type of selfish, vengeful, envious human hatred we feel for certain things to God and that simply isn't true. God's hatred is the response of an infinitely holy and righteous God to sinners that break His law.

I'll ask you once again: Where does the Bible teach that God loves everybody?

If you want to speak blasphemy against God then go right ahead. Just know that you are lowering God to a human level of understanding instead of allowing Him to be the God of the Bible.

If scripture says that “God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ”, you say “No, he was only reconciling the elect”.

If scripture says that Christ “is the atoning sacrifice...not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world”, you say “No, he only atoned for the elect”.

If scripture says that “God so loved the world that...whoever believes in him shall not perish”, you say “No, he only loved the elect”.

It is clear you are perverting scripture to fit you confused Calvinist ideas, so showing you that God so loved the world, meaning everyone, will make no difference to you. You will only pervert this fact as you so often do many other scriptures. Peter spoke of people like you,

Consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation...Paul...has written...in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things...which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures...2 Peter 3:15-16.

Acts 17:22-30: Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “Men of Athens...The God who made the world...did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us...now he commands all people everywhere to repent.”

Your perverted Calvinist ‘logic’ would say “No, God does not mean ‘all people everywhere’, He mean ‘some people somewhere’. All you do is pervert scripture wherever it contradicts your confused Calvinist traditions.

When scripture says “all men”, you say “No, it means ‘some men’”.

When scripture says “the whole world”, you say “No, it means ‘some of the world’”.

When scripture says God “loved the world”, you say “No, He only loved the elect”.

But when scripture says ‘God hated Esau’, you say “Yes, God hated Esau”.

Again, it is clear you are perverting scripture conveniently. When it does not fit your Calvinist traditions you twist it to make it fit. But when it seems to fit you leave it as it is.

Do you really think that by perverting and twisting scripture the way you do you will convince anyone of Calvinism? All it says to me is that you value Calvinism more that you value scripture. And the very scripture you think supports Calvinism is the very same scripture that condemns it.

To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted...Titus 1:15.

 

[Doveaman]

Men are slaves to sin unless chosen and bought by the blood of Jesus then we become more than servants to Him. We are called friends. So either way we are slaves. Either to sin or to righteousness. Scripture does not teach us we are slaves because we choose to be.

Rom 6:19:

Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness.

We offer ourselves in slavery to God. God does not force it or program it.

 

[CmRoddy]

If my son's rebellious behavior is endangering the lives of the rest of my household I can kick him out because I hate his rebellion while at the same time loving him.

A judge can condemn a murderer to death because of what he did while at the same time loving the one who did it. Our eternal Judge can do the same. Condemnation is because of what was done, not because you hate the one who did it.

You have yet to provide any Biblical response to the hatred of God I have proven from Scripture. When you find the verse that teaches that God loves every single individual or that He loves the sinner but hates the sin, let me know.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

When scripture says “all men”, you say “No, it means ‘some men’”.

When scripture says “the whole world”, you say “No, it means ‘some of the world’”.

When scripture says God “loved the world”, you say “No, He only loved the elect”.

The Greek language is very technical. Sometimes universal words are used to denote an entire class of men. Here is a clear example:

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

Same world here as in 3:16 (κόσμο&#962, and clearly not referring to all men in the entire world, but wicked men.

A better example:

1Jo 2:15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Yet in his Gospel John says God Himself loves the world. What is going on here?

The term κόσμος can be used to refer to a group of men, as it most often refers to a group of wicked men, or natural man. It can denote the entire universe, the planet itself, all of humanity, some of humanity, etc. So in John 3:16, clearly John is not saying God loves the world of wicked men, because he teaches against it in his epistles (1 John 2:15). It is not outside of the scope of the term to assert that the world in 3:16 refers specifically to the elect.

 

[CmRoddy]

If scripture says that “God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ”, you say “No, he was only reconciling the elect”.

If scripture says that Christ “is the atoning sacrifice...not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world”, you say “No, he only atoned for the elect”.

If scripture says that “God so loved the world that...whoever believes in him shall not perish”, you say “No, he only loved the elect”.

It is clear you are perverting scripture to fit you confused Calvinist ideas, so showing you that God so loved the world, meaning everyone, will make no difference to you. You will only pervert this fact as you so often do many other scriptures. Peter spoke of people like you,

Consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation...Paul...has written...in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things...which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures...2 Peter 3:15-16.

Acts 17:22-30: Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “Men of Athens...The God who made the world...did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us...now he commands all people everywhere to repent.”

Your perverted Calvinist ‘logic’ would say “No, God does not mean ‘all people everywhere’, He mean ‘some people somewhere’. All you do is pervert scripture wherever it contradicts your confused Calvinist traditions.

When scripture says “all men”, you say “No, it means ‘some men’”.

When scripture says “the whole world”, you say “No, it means ‘some of the world’”.

When scripture says God “loved the world”, you say “No, He only loved the elect”.

But when scripture says ‘God hated Esau’, you say “Yes, God hated Esau”.

Again, it is clear you are perverting scripture conveniently. When it does not fit your Calvinist traditions you twist it to make it fit. But when it seems to fit you leave it as it is.

Do you really think that by perverting and twisting scripture the way you do you will convince anyone of Calvinism? All it says to me is that you value Calvinism more that you value scripture. And the very scripture you think supports Calvinism is the very same scripture that condemns it.

To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted...Titus 1:15.

LOL

OK, do you know why we say that it means "all groups of people" or "the elect"? Because we know the logical conclusion that if Christ was a substitutionary atonement for every single individual person then everyone would be saved because there would be no just grounds for God to condemn them to hell.

Also, if Christ did die for every single person, then the New Covenant promise found in Jeremiah 31 and 32 is negated and isn't coming to pass.

Tell me, on what just basis, if God forgave the sins of every individual "and will remember them no more" (Jer. 31:34) can He condemn them to hell? On what just basis, if Christ was the propitiation for every single individual and appeased God's wrath for all their sin, can God condemn those people who reject the cross to hell? On what just basis can God pour His holy wrath upon the same sin twice but on two different people at two different times? I have never gotten an answer to this question and I will know whether or not you are consistent based on your answer.

And about the hatred of God thing. You make it seem as if God is somehow obligated to love everybody. As I said, you have yet to provide any Scripture to counter the hatred of God for some people and prove that God loves everybody in the same way. Do you really think that God caringly and equally loves all the people who will be in hell for an eternity as those who are before His thrown worshiping Him? If God simply hates the sin but loves the sinner then why are the men thrown into hell and not just their sin?

 

[CmRoddy]

Let me ask you a question, Doveaman. If I say "The United States is a Christian nation" what do I mean by that? Do I mean that every single individual person is a Christian? Or that the majority of the people are Christian? Logically it would mean the latter and you would know this because you live in the same time period as I do. The people who read Paul's letters knew exactly what Paul was talking about when he said "all men." They knew that God was grafting in the Gentiles so that they would be saved as well as Jews; they knew that they had to go into "all the word" and preach the Gospel to "all men." Did Jesus really expect His followers to go out and preach the gospel to every single individual person in a 4 million plus population? Of course not.

 

[Doveaman]

When God predestines a person it is not on behalf of Him knowing what we will do. For we are not saved by works. We are saved by Gods Grace.. God is not limited to what men choose or not choose. Men are limited to their human fallacy.. This is how we have one creator and many creation.

It makes perfect sense for God to know beforehand what men will do. This is why Christ was established as "the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world"...Rev 13:8.

Christ was predestined as our redeemer even before the fall. He was predestined as our redeemer based on God's foreknowledge of our fall.

God does not operate in darkness, He sees what will be then He works it out in accordance to His sovereign purpose.

God predestines for glory those He knows will respond to His call, and those He knows will not respond He predestines for destruction.

Our destiny is determined by our choices which God foreknows.

I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him. So I will stretch out my hand and strike the Egyptians...After that, he will let you go...Ex 3:19-20.

God predestined the destruction of Egypt based on His foreknowledge of Pharaoh's stubbornness.

God's foreknowledge of what we will do is always present, even in our election. God always knows.

This has nothing to do with salvation by works. It has to do with salvation through our faith that God foreknows. He predestines us based on that faith.

 

[MamaZ]

Rom 6:19:

Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness.

We offer ourselves in slavery to God. God does not force it or program it.

Yes we offered ourselves in slavery to sin because this is what a slave does.. He has no choice in the matter.. A slave is subject to what or who rules over him.. Before we are born again we are slaves to sin who rules over us.. Once we are born again we are slaves to Christ who rules over us. If indeed one has the Spirit of God that dwells with in Him..

 

[CmRoddy]

It makes perfect sense for God to know beforehand what men will do. This is why Christ was established as "the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world"...Rev 13:8.

Christ was predestined as our redeemer even before the fall. He was predestined as our redeemer based on God's foreknowledge of our fall.

God does not operate in darkness, He sees what will be then He works it out in accordance to His sovereign purpose.

God predestines for glory those He knows will respond to His call, and those He knows will not respond He predestines for destruction.

Our destiny is determined by our choices which God foreknows.

I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him. So I will stretch out my hand and strike the Egyptians...After that, he will let you go...Ex 3:19-20.

God predestined the destruction of Egypt based on His foreknowledge of Pharaoh's stubbornness.

God's foreknowledge of what we will do is always present, even in our election. God always knows.

Yes, our "Sovereign God" is contingent upon the actions of man to make His choices... but man's existence is contingent on God... but God cannot do anything that is not contingent on man's choices...

Really?? No one else sees the circular logic here??

Amazing.

 

[CmRoddy]

Perhaps you should do some research on the foreknowledge of God seeing how you don't have a very Biblical view of it.

Monergism :: Forseen Faith

 

[Doveaman]

Let's look at your view and see how this pans out. Since God is omniscient, everything that he knows will happen must come to pass. It has to. There is no way around it. If God knew that you would be saved, then you will be saved. You can't not be saved. So, since God knew it would happen, and you can do no other, you must have been preprogrammed to receive Christ.

This is the kind of reasoning Calvinism will always lead to; robotics.

But, this is how I see it, God knows we will be saved because He knows we will choose to believe and be saved.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

This is the kind of reasoning Calvinism will always lead to; robotics.

But, this is how I see it, God knows we will be saved because He knows we will choose to believe and be saved.

If God must inquire among your choices in order to know the future, His omniscience is no longer innate. Therefore you must deny the attribute of God's omniscience, leading to open theism.

 

[Rightglory]

Mamaz,

Yes we offered ourselves in slavery to sin because this is what a slave does.. He has no choice in the matter.. A slave is subject to what or who rules over him.. Before we are born again we are slaves to sin who rules over us.. Once we are born again we are slaves to Christ who rules over us. If indeed one has the Spirit of God that dwells with in Him..

that's assuming that Christ never came.

Since I believe that He actually came, and rose again, I believe also that He accomplished what He purposed. He came to free the world from the bondage to death and sin. Because I also believe He accomplished this, no man, is any longer a slave to either death or sin. Christ truly freed mankind from the condemnation through Adam.

Now, rather than all of us being condemned by one sin by one man, we are going to be judged individually on our own free choice just as Adam to fulfil the purpose of why we were created.

Thus every man chooses whether he will be a slave to the flesh, sin, satan, or a slave to Christ. Any man can change at any time from one to the other as long as he lives this temporal life.

 

[MamaZ]

It makes perfect sense for God to know beforehand what men will do. This is why Christ was established as "the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world"...Rev 13:8.

You really like to add human reasoning sometimes to the very truth of scripture. Christ was the plan from the very beginning before men were even created. He has chosen for Himself a people..


Christ was predestined as our redeemer even before the fall. He was predestined as our redeemer based on God's foreknowledge of our fall.

Proof of this in scripture would be great.. He was predestined as our redeemer not because of knowledge of our fall but because this was the way God had planned before even the first man was created or the heavens and the earth.. And because He is God it all fell into His plan.. God did not fall into mans plan..

God does not operate in darkness, He sees what will be then He works it out in accordance to His sovereign purpose.

He does not see what will be then works it out. He causes it all to be as He wills.. Not the will of man but the will of God

God predestines for glory those He knows will respond to His call, and those He knows will not respond He predestines for destruction.

Adding words to Gods word to twist what the scripture actually says brings death and destruction as we see by the serpent adding to what God said to Adam and Eve.. Sin entered and men fell.


Our destiny is determined by our choices which God foreknows.
God did not fall off His throne friend when He made man.. He does not bend to mans will but predestines man to HIS will.

I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him. So I will stretch out my hand and strike the Egyptians...After that, he will let you go...Ex 3:19-20.

God predestined the destruction of Egypt based on His foreknowledge of Pharaoh's stubbornness.

Once again you put man over God.. For God predestined Egypt to be just as He had planned all along. This is what God wanted to do to show His glory and boom and bang this is what happened.. Pharaoh had no choice.. LOL..


God's foreknowledge of what we will do is always present, even in our election. God always knows.

Of course He knows.. He is the creator.. But His plan is not worked around mans plan.. You have it all backwards.. Men work around Gods Plan and will..

This has nothing to do with salvation by works. It has to do with salvation through our faith that God foreknows. He predestines us based on that faith.

No He does not.. He predestines us based upon His will and His plan and takes man by the hand and leads Him will He will go and where He will not. For even our faith is not our own.. Kind of like a man telling God he can create just as God.. God said lets see.. So the man took a scoop of dirt and God took it back and said make your own dirt..

 

[MamaZ]

Mamaz,


that's assuming that Christ never came.

Since I believe that He actually came, and rose again, I believe also that He accomplished what He purposed. He came to free the world from the bondage to death and sin. Because I also believe He accomplished this, no man, is any longer a slave to either death or sin. Christ truly freed mankind from the condemnation through Adam.

Now, rather than all of us being condemned by one sin by one man, we are going to be judged individually on our own free choice just as Adam to fulfil the purpose of why we were created.

Thus every man chooses whether he will be a slave to the flesh, sin, satan, or a slave to Christ. Any man can change at any time from one to the other as long as he lives this temporal life.

Well this sounds good to itchy ears and those who love to follow after old wives tales. But truth conquers these every time.. Only those to whom believe into Christ are any of His. The rest are none of His..

 

[Doveaman]

Doveamen,

for some reason you skipped a post of mine. Please respond-

Not skipped, just distracted.

Why would God need to predestine something that was going to happen whether He predestinated it or not? My point being, if He saw we were going to do something anyways, why predestinate it?

Depends on how we view predestination.

Predestination is not God pre-programming us to do only what He wants us to do as if we are robots.

Predestination is God determining beforehand what our reward (glory) or penalty (destruction) will be based on His foreknowledge of our choice to do good in faith or to do evil in rebellion.

Our choices determine our destiny.

This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Therefore choose life, so that you and your children may live...Deut 30:19.

Predestination also involves God determining in advance what He wants us to do knowing in advance that we will choose to do it when he calls us to do it.

If I knew beforehand that one carpenter would construct my house better then another then I can determine beforehand which carpenter I will eventually call to build that house.

For those God foreknew (knew beforehand) he also predestined (determine beforehand) to be conformed to the likeness of his Son...And those he predestined, he also called...Rom 8:29-30.

God knew beforehand (foreknew) those who would freely choose to accept His call to be conformed to the likeness of His Son, and those He knew beforehand would freely choose to accept His call, He determined beforehand (predestined) to conform them, and those whom He predestined to be conformed He eventually called to be conformed.

The predestination is based on God’s foreknowledge of what we will freely choose in faith. Our choices determine our destiny.

The idea that our choices are not involved in our salvation or condemnation is contrary to scriptures such as this one:

This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Therefore choose life, so that you and your children may live...Deut 30:19.

Another example of predestination is how God dealt with Pharaoh.

But I know (foreknew) that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him. So I will stretch out my hand and strike the Egyptians (predestination)...After that, he will let you go...Ex 3:19-20.

God predestined the destruction of Egypt based on His foreknowledge of Pharaoh’s choosing not to let Israel go. Because God knew beforehand that Pharaoh would choose not to let Israel go He determined beforehand to destroy Egypt.

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose..."

What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the vessels of his wrath — prepared for destruction?

What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the vessels of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory — even us, whom he also called...Rom 9:17, 22-24.

Using the example above regarding the predestined destruction of Pharaoh and Egypt, the predestined destruction of the vessels of wrath is based on God’s foreknowledge of the wrong choices they will make in rebellion as Pharaoh did.

And the predestined glory of the vessels of mercy is based on God’s foreknowledge of the right choices they will make in faith as Noah did.

The choice is ours to freely choose in faith; God freely chose to offer us salvation and we freely choose in faith to accept it.

Our choices determine our destiny; blessings or curses, life or death, glory or destruction.

Therefore choose life, so that you and your children may live...Deut 30:19.

 

[Doveaman]

Yes and its Christ faith in the first place..its not of ourselves, its christ faith, the gift of God...paul says that i now live by the faith of the Son of God gal 2:

20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Simply, paul now lives by christ faith..

It is Christ' faith but we have to choose to submit to it or it will not benefit us.

Faith can be defined as 'the mind of Christ in us', but our own rebellious carnal mind is still present, and there is a conflict between the two.

Dear friends, I urge you...to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul...1 Peter 2:11.

There is a war between the mind of Christ in us and our own carnal mind. They both 'desire' to have us, but we must choose which one we will submit to.

If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is to have you, but you must rule over it...Gen 4:7.