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Peter and the Keys, Catholicism and the Pope

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LittleLambofJesus

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TraderJack

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They were only debating IF the universal Church should celebrate the Feast Day on the same date.
Polycarp followed apostolic tradition & Anicetus rejected apostolic tradition.
Just like there was a Judas in the apostles, there was one in the Roman bishopric.

And thus was the pride of Judas, the man of sin, passed on to Rome.
2.gif
 
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TraderJack

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You say this is only a liturgical issue.

Standard Operating Procedure. Introduce new redefinable terms to swamp the issue.
Liturgy is in the domain of faith and we all know who is infallable on faith & morals, not the apostles w/their tradition as delivered by Polycarp, but Pope Anicetus who preferred convenience & his own traditions.
 
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TraderJack

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Is that cited anywhere in this thread started here :wave:

http://www.christianforums.com/t6857735-26/
Roman popes and forgeries

Trento is fond of cutting and pasting from Roman e-pologist sites that cite the spurious epistles of "Ignatius", the long versions that are known medieval Roman forgeries.

Rome has a long history of producing forgeries to make it appear that their doctrines are from antiquity when in fact they wrote in a legitimate name, writing the post Nicene, medieval Roman doctrines into them.

Writing "history" well after the fact, in their favor.

Roman Catholics are still being deceived by them, but no one else is.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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They were only debating IF the universal Church should celebrate the Feast Day on the same date.

And thus was the pride of Judas, the man of sin, passed on to Rome.
2.gif
:angel:

2 thess 2:3 No any ye should be deluding according to no yet one manner/way that if-ever no may be coming the apostasy/apo-stasia <646> first and may be being un-covered the Man of the Sin/amartiaV <266> the son of the destruction/apwleiaV <684>.
 
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NewMan99

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CJ,

I just don't have the time or energy for this.

I’m very sad that you are opting out of your ministry here as an apologist to this issue.

My ministerial work is large and diverse. CF (when I am here...which lately is sporadic at best) is only a small part of the work I do. And while it is true that sometimes apologetics comes into play, my real focus is not apologetics as much as it is teaching the Catholic faith as I understand it to be - as others have handed it down to me. I just teach it. If you want to agree or disagree with it...well...that's not up to me. So I teach - that is primary...and if along the way I am compelled to defend what I teach - that is secondary.

My point is that this thread has drained a lot of my time and energy...which takes away from other things I do elsewhere (including private correspondence I have with several people, sometimes simultaneously).

I have to make a value judgment: Is this going anywhere? Is this a real dialog or just yet another example of people talking past each other? Might this be edifying to lurkers? Ultimately, I have to carefully decide where to spend my time. When all is said and done, I think this thread has about run its course as far as I can tell. I said what I had to say. People can accept it or reject it. As usual, in GT very few people wind up accepting something that they apriori rejected (that cuts all ways - it's just just an observation - not a criticism). So be it.


I’m very sad that you seem to regard me intellectually insufficient to understand you.

Not at all. You are a bright guy. You have the intellectual capacity to understand what I am saying. That is why I am frustrated by you. It is because I know you CAN understand me, but for whatever reason do not...that is what is trying my patience. But the last thing you should think is that I am denigrating in any way your intellectual capacity.

YOU are the one who insisted that you could evidence that the Papacy as you defined was established by Jesus.

The only thing I promised to support with evidence is that the Apostolic Era Church...those who personally knew the Apostles and learned directly from them...that THEY said and did things that were consistent with the claims of the Catholic Church with regard to universal authority by the Bishop of Rome. That's all I promised to illustrate with historical evidence. And when you read what the five witnesses said and did...it was consistent with our claims. It was your assertion that the early Church was not really pan-congregational until Constantine's time. It was your assertion that the first three centuries of Christianity the Church was really no more than a "movement". It was your assertion that the early Church was more like a loose bunch of fairly independent church houses. It was your assertion that the very nature of the Church changed from "movement" to "denomination" at legalization. It was my assertion that the Church was always pan-congregational and was always under the authority of the Bishop of Rome...and if I am wrong then the burden lies with you show why the Corinthians, and Ignatius, and Polycarp, and Ireneaus, and Dionysius ALL either obeyed Rome or affirmed its authority. And if the Apostolic-era Church acted in a way that is consistent with Catholic claims for the papacy, then it says alot about the correct interpretation of the Bible verses that we are debating.

So, while I feel your growing frustration, I don’t accept that my stupidity is the cause of such. I just don’t.

You are not stupid - and I never said you were. I said you fail to grasp on a fundamental level even the basics of what I am trying to say. But there can be MANY possible reasons for this - and your level of intellegence is not one of them. I do not think that you CANNOT understand my words...I think it is that you WILL NOT understand my words. I have gotten rep comments and PMs from NON-CATHOLICS reading this thread, and THEY have understood my words. Why don't you? You need to ask yourself this, imo.

Friend and unseparated brother, your claim is that Jesus founded the papacy of The Catholic Church.

Jesus founded ONE Church. This Church has two dimensions: it is both visible/institutional and invisible/mystical. The fullness of Christ's Church is found when both dimensions are present. The Church wherein both dimensions are present eventually came to call itself by the name "The Catholic Church" - but that Church has always existed since its founding by Christ regardless of its size, its style, or its name. Christ founded this Church (i.e., The Catholic Church) on the Apostles. Christ also commissioned one Apostle, Peter, with a special and unique ministry. That special ministry is that of supreme pastor of His Church, to tend the flock and keep the Church both unified and orthodox until His return in Glory. And this special ministry has been handed down to Peter's successors by divine design. THAT is what I claim, relative to your statement above.

Thus, you have 3 things to confirm: That JESUS did this.

The Bible says so. But we disagree on this interpretation of Scripture. So we are forced to look to 3rd party witnesses who were contemporaries of the Apostles to either affirm or deny that the Catholic interpretation was followed by them, or if these witnesses had a more Protestant-like interpretation whereby Roman authority is either denied, ignored, or not even mentioned. Now since these writings are not Holy Scripture we are not BOUND to them, but they do give us a window to peer into to see which of the two possibilities are more plausible from the POVs of those who learned directly from the Apostles.

That this was in or before 30 AD since you don’t agree with the Mormons that Jesus came back for this but that Jesus did this during His earthly ministry which is generally thought to have ended before 31 AD (and perhaps earlier).

See above comments. The Bible itself supports my views. But, again, we disagree as to what the Bible is saying. Gosh...wouldn't it be nice if God had thought to provide us with an authoritative teacher to settle disputes of this kind? Wait...He did.

And that what He founded is THE Papacy of the RCC as YOU have defined such – with the characteristics, aspects, etc. that YOU have stated during the course of this thread.

I never once promised I would be able to "prove" the charism of Infallibility. What I promised to illustrate is that the very early Church...going back to the Apostolic era...submitted themselves to the universal authority of Roman Church when matters of unity and orthodoxy were raised. I also said that the same people who denied this authority at the beginning of this thread would dismiss and reject the evidence...even if they offer no real evidence of their own to counter my claims. And that is, of course, exactly what has happened.

My brother, your first “witness” was SIXTY YEARS after the event

But he was not born SIXTY years later. He was a DIRECT CONTEMPORARY of Peter himself. Clement LEARNED FROM PETER - directly! So if anyone is in a position to know how Peter and the rest of the Church intepreted the Bible verses we here are debating today it would be him. If anybody knew the true nature of the Pretrine ministry - it would be him. Clement would know how Peter and the Church viewed the words of Jesus regarding the Keys in Matthew 16. Clement would know how Peter understood the words "Tend my sheep". Clement would know if Peter viewed his ministry as being that of supreme pastor over the whole flock. And so would Ignatius. And both of these men (and let's throw Polycarp in here too) seem to view the Bishop of Rome as having both authority over churches and both of them seem to think that the Bishop of Rome is a TEACHER to other churches as well.

And, as if I need to mention it yet again, the case is not made by virtue of any one piece of evidence, but rather by the preponderence of ALL of the evidence...which, if considered as part of the whole, leads one to admit that the Roman Church DID INDEED exercise various forms of authority over other churches. So you can quibble with me over what any one Father said or did - and claim that they got it wrong - or that it wasn't written by them - or that there are other meanings to their words - or that they were taken out of context - but you cannot say that they are ALL wrong, and ALL spurious, and ALL taken out of context (which...in truth...NONE of them were). Denial of the historical record is not the same thing as a credible argument. I have accepted the burden of proof insofar as I produced the evidence I promised. Now the burden shifts to others to show that the historical evidence is not really authentic, or contextually accurate, or flawed in some other way. Don't just tell me I am wrong - show me.

I passionately HOPE you gained SOMETHING out of our chat – other than frustration and anger. Otherwise, I have only sadness for it.

Perhaps I overstated it when I said the thread and our dialog has been fruitless. Based on comments I have received from a few folks (not just Catholics), and based on my own experiences, I would say that there has been some fruit. However, I strongly feel it has reached a point of diminishing returns.

If any lukers out there would like to explore this topic further...well..my PM box is always open.


God's Peace,

NewMan
 
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NewMan99

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Both are true in part. That is one good reason they aren't considered scripture.

So those texts were all phoney frauds made up by latter day heretics to support their own heterodoxies? The Letter of Clement to the Corinthians was not written by Clement? The words of Ignatius fouind in those seven letters were penned by someone else after-the-fact? Polycarp didn't really appeal to the AUTHORITY of the Bishop of Rome...someone claiming to be Irenaeus (but wasn't really Irenaeus) made it up? And...if these were spurious letters...then on what basis can you claim these men were liars? If they didn't write the letters, then where is their lie? Either they wrote it or they didn't. They can't do both. Why can't anyone in this thread be reasonable for a moment and just deal with what the texts actually say and what the Fathers actually did?

And, Clement's letter was read in the liturgies of many city-churches for quite a long time as if it was Scripture (because THEY considered it to be). While it is true that it never made it into the universal canon, it was considered to be a venerable text worthy of its due consideration. If the early church itself thought so highly of it, why don't you? And just to be clear here...no...I do not consider it to be Scripture.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Perhaps I overstated it when I said the thread and our dialog has been fruitless. Based on comments I have received from a few folks (not just Catholics), and based on my own experiences, I would say that there has been some fruit. However, I strongly feel it has reached a point of diminishing returns.

If any lukers out there would like to explore this topic further...well..my PM box is always open.


God's Peace,

NewMan
Or on the OBOB board :hug:

One Bread, One Body - Catholic - Christian Forums
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Trento

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Trento is fond of cutting and pasting from Roman e-pologist sites that cite the spurious epistles of "Ignatius", the long versions that are known medieval Roman forgeries.

Rome has a long history of producing forgeries to make it appear that their doctrines are from antiquity when in fact they wrote in a legitimate name, writing the post Nicene, medieval Roman doctrines into them.

Writing "history" well after the fact, in their favor.

Roman Catholics are still being deceived by them, but no one else is.


ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

There it is people Chapter 7 on a Protestant site that advertises Calvin College no less.


fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as the holy Stephen did to the blessed James, Timothy and Linus to Paul, Anencletus and Clement to Peter? He, therefore, that will not yield obedience to such, must needs be one utterly without God, an impious man who despises Christ, and depreciates His appointments.
 
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Standing Up

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I beg to differ. Polycarp was the disciple of John the Beloved, and had contact with both Peter in Antioch and Paul in Ephesus.

Anicetus had NO direct Apostolic connection at all.

It seems reasonable to think that Polycarp and the eastern churches were indeed following Apostolic Tradition in their adherance to the 14 Nisan date of Pasqua, as opposed to the Roman version.

Indeed. It was to the elders in Ephesus for whom Paul called and instructed feed His flock. It was to the elders in Asia Minor for whom Peter called and instructed feed His flock. AS IT IS WRITTEN IN SCRIPTURE.
 
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Standing Up

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St. Ignatius was a diciple of St. John and when he wrote his letter to the Trallians was on his way to Martyrdom for Christ. He tells us in his letter that Anicetus fulfilled a pure and blameless ministry so i'll believe St. Ignatius before opinions from modern men.

For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ Of God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counsellors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as Anicetus and Clement to Peter?"
Ignatius,To the Trallians,7(A.D. 110),in ANF,I:69

[/b]

Yeah, and you are citing a known forgery in that epistle.

Typical of Romans to invent "facts" that are tilted in their favor. That kind of manufacturing "facts" and "history" has a long "tradition" in Rome.

NewAdvent lists that one. They list others as spurious.

IMO, it is fine. It clearly supports the notion I'm presenting. Taken in context that is their explanation for what they did. See the enlarged font above in the quote. That is the operating procedure, what is believed.

Whether it is true or not, the answer lies elsewhere. But that is what Rome believes. Truly. They believe and assert that the Bishop possess all power and authority. Hence that is how they acted. It explains the reasoning behind what happened between the Apostolic line through Polycarp to Polycrates and the bishoprick line Linus to Anicet to Victor to 325ad.
 
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Standing Up

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Let's back into the issue, shall we?

Christ died on the 14th, say the Quartodecimans. Christ rose on Sunday, says Rome.

Given the HUGE argument with death, heretics, excommunication stances over the first 300 years and the claims of apostolic succession versus bishoprick succession, what do you see is the underlying assumption people make between the 14th and Sunday?

You say this is only a liturgical issue. What assumption have you made to assert as much? Why would I say it has nothing to do with that? We can assume we're both reasonable men :).

Shameless bump.

Anyone? What is the assumption if the Quartodecimans say Christ died on the 14th and Rome says Christ rose on Sunday?
 
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NewMan99

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Shameless bump.

Anyone? What is the assumption if the Quartodecimans say Christ died on the 14th and Rome says Christ rose on Sunday?

Don't worry - I plan to respond...I just have other things on my plate at the moment.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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.


Some thoughts.....


1. I'd hope ecumenical discussions could happen in the open rather than in PM's and in forums where variant opinions are permitted rather than where "walls of separation" exist for all but the opinions of one teacher/denomination. I just think it's more fruitful to mutual understanding and the pursuit of unity. And yes, these discussions require a LOT of work and patience, but IMHO, it's what CF is all about.


2. The issue is this: is there solid historic evidence that The Papacy of the RCC, as defined by our Catholic friend, existed from 30 AD on (so that there is at least the theoretical possibility that Jesus established such)? Not simply are there cases, perhaps a century and a half after the earthly ministry of Jesus, where the Bishop in Rome gives an opinion and such is welcomed. Advise sought, given or taken in no way implies that one is regarded as The Pope. Indeed, every pastor on the planet has likely had advise sought, given and taken - such doesn't imply that he/she is a Pope of the RCC. What needs to be clear is that such is sought expressly because such is seen as being all the things NewMan99 indicated are attributes specifically of the Papacy. Merely to show that one speaks definitively or council is sought, given and/or embraced has zero revelance to anything about the Papacy or the RCC, or even a bishop.


3. I have not yet read the other two witnesses; what I will look for is how they are testifying to the RCC's claims about the Pope - are they confirming such or not? Are they confirming the RCC's claim that Jesus founded the Papacy of the RCC as NewMan99 has defined or are they not? In the case of Clement, writing at least 60 years after the supposed event and as one who ever claimed to be a witness, does he say ANYTHING whatsoever relevant to our discussion, indeed, the Orthodox posters here may be correct in that his "we" and "us" may indicate a step toward the Orthodox understanding rather than the infallible, supreme, powerful, lordship above all Pope concept of the RCC. I tend to see that AT MOST, the historican NewMan99 so admires may be right and that here, in 90 AD, we have the "first step toward" an understanding to the Papacy, but I think that's stretching it and that it's not evidence even of that. We simply have a man giving counsel who was a bishop in Rome - with no indication at all that his counsel is "binding on the whole universal church" specifically BECAUSE he is a bishop of that specific diocese and ERGO supreme, infallible lord over all Christians. Without that component, it simply means a man's counsel was sought and taken - and is entirely and completely moot to our discussion.


4. I will very carefully study the other two "witnesses" from much later when I can donate the block of time and attention to such. Then reply. MY choice is to do so HERE, publicly, where those pro and con may post and where I invite all to respond - however critcal or questioning they may be. Because this IS the keystone issue of the RCC and probably the most significant issue that divides Christianity and has for centuries before Luther was born: the RCC concept of The Pope.



Thanks!


Pax


- Josiah





.
 
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racer

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Opinions - opinions and more opinions -----Let's take a look at what modern Orthodox scholars do concede to the Catholic understanding of papal primacy, authority, and infallibility.

Taken from THE PRIMACY OF PETER : Essays in Ecclesiology and the Early Church edited by John Meyendorff (St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1992

1) There is no systematic doctrine of Church government in the Orthodox Church and therefore it is not enough to refute Universal Primacy
"As we study the problem of primacy in general, and especially the primacy of Rome, we must not be ruled by polemical motives: the problem is to be solved to satisfy ourselves and Orthodox theology. The solution of the problem is urgent, since Orthodox theology has not yet built up any systematic doctrine on Church government. And although we have a doctrine concerning Ecumenical Councils as organs of government in the Church, we shall see presently that our doctrine is not enough to refute the Catholic doctrine of primacy." (Afanassieff, page 92)
========================================================================
(2) The earliest Fathers recognized the primacy of Rome (or what might be called "priority") and Orthodox scholars generally concede this
on ST. CLEMENT OF ROME (c. 96 AD)
"Let us turn to the facts. We know that the Church of Rome took over the position of 'church-with-priority' at the end of the first century. That was about the time at which her star ascended into the firmament of history in its brightest splendor...Even as early as the Epistle to the Romans, Rome seems to have stood out among all the churches as very important. Paul bears witness that the faith of the Romans was proclaimed throughout the whole world (Rom 1:8)....we have a document which gives us our earliest reliable evidence that the Church of Rome stood in an exceptional position of authority in this period. This is the epistle of Clement of Rome...We know that Clement was 'president' of the Roman Church...." (page 124)
"The epistle is couched in very measured terms, in the form of an exhortation; but at the same time it clearly shows that the Church of Rome was aware of the decisive weight, in the Church of Corinth's eyes, that must attach to its witness about the events in Corinth. So the Church of Rome, at the end of the first century, exhibits a marked sense of its own priority, in point of witness about events in other churches. Note also that the Roman Church did not feel obliged to make a case, however argued, to justify its authoritative pronouncements on what we should now call the internal concerns of other churches. There is nothing said about the grounds of this priority....Apparently Rome had no doubt that its priority would be accepted without argument." (page 125-126)
on ST. IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH (c. 110 AD)
"We find the first direct evidence about the priority of the Roman Church in the writings of Ignatius of Antioch. Speaking of the Church of Rome, Ignatius uses the phrase 'which presides' in two passages.... The Roman Church 'presides' in love, that is, in the concord based on love between all the local churches. The term 'which presides' [Greek given] needs no discussion; used in the masculine it means the bishop, for he, as head of the local church, sits in the 'first place' at the eucharistic assembly, that is, in the central seat. He is truly the president of his church...[Ignatius] pictured the local churches grouped, as it were, in a eucharistic assembly, with every church in its special place, and the church of Rome in the chair, sitting in the 'first place.' So, says Ignatius, the Church of Rome indeed has the priority in the whole company of churches united by concord....In his period no other church laid claim to the role, which belonged to the Church of Rome." (page 126-127)
on ST. IRENAEUS (c. 180 AD)
"We shall find other evidence about the Roman position in Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons. His -Adversus Heareses- contains a famous passage, which has provoked a great many arguments. This is unquestionably the most important document of all with regard to the position of the Roman Chuch....Irenaeus calls on Apostolic Tradition to correct the mistaken heretics. This Tradition, he says, is guarded in every local church by the succession of bishops. It was not in his power to find proof of this in each local church, so he confines himself to one set of bishops only, and enumerates the bishops of Rome, a church in which Apostolic Tradition and the Faith proclaimed to mankind have been guarded up to his own times....Irenaeus believed he could confine himself to enumerating the succession in a single church, viz. the Roman Church, although he might have enumerated the successive bishops in every local church, as he says himself. He gives his own explanation for choosing the Church of Rome: he saw it as
'the very great and the very ancient church, known to all, which the two most glorious apostles Peter and Paul founded and constituted.'
"...Irenaeus insists that anyone looking for the truth can find it in the Tradition of the Apostles, which every local church has preserved. So we must suppose he thought that the Apostolic Tradition and the Faith proclaimed to mankind were preserved in the Roman Church more fully than in others, or, at least, in a more manifest way. Later, Irenaeus points to this Church -- Rome -- as the one to which all other churches must -convenire-....I think a likelier sense of -convenire- here is 'address oneself to,' 'turn to,' 'have recourse to.' The sense of the remark would then be: every local church should have recourse to the Church of Rome....This passage in Irenaeus [from Against Heresies 3:4:1] illuminates the meaning of his remarks about the Church of Rome: if there are disputes in a local church, that church should have recourse to the Roman Church, for there is contained the Tradition which is preserved by all the churches."
"Rome's vocation [in the "pre-Nicene period"] consisted in playing the part of arbiter, settling contentious issues by witnessing to the truth or falsity of whatever doctrine was put before them. Rome was truly the center where all converged if they wanted their doctrine to be accepted by the conscience of the Church. They could not count upon success except on one condition -- that the Church of Rome had received their doctrine -- and refusal from Rome predetermined the attitude the other churches would adopt. There are numerous cases of this recourse to Rome...." (page 128f, 133)
on ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 250 AD)
"...according to his doctrine there should have really been one single bishop at the head of the Universal Church....According to Cyprian, every bishop occupies Peter's throne (the Bishop of Rome among others) but the See of Peter is Peter's throne -par excellence-. The Bishop of Rome is the direct heir of Peter, whereas the others are heirs only indirectly, and sometimes only by the mediation of Rome. Hence Cyprian's insistence that the Church of Rome is the root and matrix of the Catholic Church [Ecclesiae catholicae matricem et radicem]. The subject is treated in so many of Cyprian's passages that there is no doubt: to him, the See of Rome was -ecclesia principalis unde unitas sacerdotalis exorta est- [the Principal Church from which the unity of the priesthood/episcopacy has its rise]." (page 98-99)
========================================================================
(3) There is no doubt that an objective study of the evidence yields the conclusion that the Catholic Church believed in Universal Primacy, had an Ecumenical center of unity and agreement in Rome, and the unanimous testimony of the Fathers and Councils demonstrates this -- and to deny this is based purely on "anti-Roman prejudice"
"Finally we come to the highest and ultimate form of primacy: universal primacy. An age-long anti-Roman prejudice has led some Orthodox canonists simply to deny the existence of such primacy in the past or the need for it in the present. But an objective study of the canonical tradition cannot fail to establish beyond any doubt that, along with local 'centers of agreement' or primacies, the Church has also known a universal primacy....
"It is impossible to deny that, even before the appearance of local primacies, the Church from the first days of her existence possessed an ecumenical center of unity and agreement. In the apostolic and the Judaeo-Christian period, it was the Church of Jerusalem, and later the Church of Rome -- 'presiding in agape,' according to St. Ignatius of Antioch. This formula and the definition of the universal primacy contained in it have been aptly analyzed by Fr. Afanassieff and we need not repeat his argument here. Neither can we quote here all the testimonies of the Fathers and the Councils unanimously acknowledging Rome as the senior church and the center of ecumenical agreement.
"It is only for the sake of biased polemics that one can ignore these testimonies, their consensus and significance. It has happened, however, that if Roman historians and theologians have always interpreted this evidence in juridical terms, thus falsifying its real meaning, their Orthodox opponents have systematically belittled the evidence itself. Orthodox theology is still awaiting a truly Orthodox evaluation of universal primacy in the first millennium of church history -- an evaluation free from polemical or apologetic exaggerations." (Schmemann, page 163-164)
You know, it would really help if you would make your posts more readable. :thumbsup:
 
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racer

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i, as Orthodox, do not doubt that Peter was in Rome and the first bishop there.
I believe there is evidence that both Peter and Paul were in Rome. Haven't seen evidence that Peter was the first pope, not saying there is none, I've just never seen it.

What is said about Peter and Paul in Rome is that they both appointed Linus as the Bishop of that church and they did not even have to die to do this.
 
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racer

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It is interesting to read people's opinions, especially when they coincide with Scripture.

The OP asserts that the rock in 'upon this rock I will build My church' is Peter's confession of faith. Most Protestants believe this as well. So how nice to see Peter himself confirm this.

1 Peter 1:20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

...

1 Peter 2:4-6 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For {this} is contained in Scripture: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER {stone,} AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

There's the confession of faith and assertion we too are living stones begin built up. As well, Paul in other scipture confirms this, saying we are built upon the foundation of OT prophets and NT apostles with Christ as the cornerstone. Eph 2:20.
Take verse 1Pe 2:5; Ye also, as lively stones, then take Matt 16:18 in proper understanding. Jesus is addressing "all" twelve of the apostles. Even though Peter is the one who speaks up, still Jesus is addressing all twelve. This is evidenced in Matt 18:18 where they are all given the power to bind and loose. So, when Jesus says in Matt 16:18 "you are petra," he is actually telling them all that they are rocks, small stones.

This is further substantiated when you read 1Pe 2:5. We are all "lively stones," as we comprise the body of Christ. Christ is the Cornerstone. As lively stones we build up a "spiritual house (the body of Christ)"
are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Here I refer you to Romans 12:1; I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.

That is my humble understanding . . . .:pray:
 
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NewMan99

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Let's back into the issue, shall we?

Christ died on the 14th, say the Quartodecimans. Christ rose on Sunday, says Rome.

I think you are somewhat missing the point. The issue was not when Christ literally/historically died or rose, but when such things should be commemorated / celebrated. That was the nature of the dispute.

Given the HUGE argument with death, heretics, excommunication stances over the first 300 years and the claims of apostolic succession versus bishoprick succession,

What is "Apostolic succession vs. bishopric succession"? Perhaps you don't understand what we mean by "Apostolic succession." You apparently think that we believe that our bishops succeed to the full office of Apostles (a common misperception). But that's not our position. Rather, what Apostolic succession means is that our bishops succeed to the EPISCOPAL DIMENSION of the Apostle's offices (the Apostles being the first overseers / presbyters of the churches they established). Our bishops are not Divinely inspired or personally sent by Christ, as the Apostles were; and they cannot introduce new revelation, as the Apostles were empowered to do. So, there is no difference between "Apostolic succession" and "bishopric succession."

what do you see is the underlying assumption people make between the 14th and Sunday?

You say this is only a liturgical issue. What assumption have you made to assert as much? Why would I say it has nothing to do with that? We can assume we're both reasonable men :).

I say it was only a liturgical issue because that is what the historical record (as per the words of Ireneaus) says it was.

From his letter to Pope Victor I:

“For the controversy is not merely as regards the day (of Easter), but also as regards the form itself of the fast (i.e., Lent)."

He listed TWO points of controversy: which DATE the celebration should be observed on their liturgical calendar - and - the "form" of the Lenten fast, since different city-churches had different customs in that regard. But these were not theological disputes, nor were they disputing regarding which days Jesus literally and historically died and rose. They were disputing "WHEN should we OBSERVE these events and HOW?" The dispute was liturgical/devotional and nothing more.

And as I have said more than once, both traditions were Apostolic in origin (as I will illustrate in a moment as per the same letter to Victor).

Rome merely observed the *liturgical* tradition as it was handed down by Peter and Paul, and thus observed, not only in Rome, but in Alexandria, and Antioch, and most of the other churches. This tradition was still pretty "Jewish" and dependent on the Jewish calendar, in that it celebrated Easter on the next Sunday after Passover. But it incorporated the principal of the "Lord's Day" (Sunday), which was a New Covenant dimension. The Johnine tradition in Asia (and parts of Syria and Mesopotamia) kept things closer to the Jewish calendar, allowing the Jewish calendar to dictate the day on which Easter would be celebrated (i.e., always three days after the Passover, no matter on which day it happened to fall). So they were BOTH Apostolic but distinct insofar as which aspect of the Passion and Resurrection narrative the given tradition wished to emphasize.

And we know this, in part, because of these words from the letter to Victor:

And this variety among the observers [of the fasts] had not its origin in our time, but long before in that of our predecessors, some of whom probably, being not very accurate in their observance of it, handed down to posterity the custom as it had, through simplicity or private fancy, been [introduced among them]. And yet nevertheless all these lived in peace, one with another, and we also keep peace together. Thus, in fact, the difference [in observing] the fast establishes the harmony of our common] Faith.

Bottom line: The Apostles (who expected the end of the world to happen soon) simply weren't very concerned with such things. It was not a top priority for them. So different customs in different city-churches arose from the common Apostolic deposit of faith. It was only later, when observance of Easter became a higher priority for the Church, that concerns over unity arose...and thus the controversy. Eventually Pope Victor was persuaded to withdraw his threat of excommunication toward the Asians; and for the very reason that (as Ireneaus convinced him) the difference did not threaten the unity of Faith, but was only liturgical in nature. Which of course, begs the question of the true level of authority of the Bishop of Rome in the Early Church among those within living memory of the Apostles: if the Pope did not exist as an office of universal jurisdiction to keep the Church in unity and orthodoxy, then WHY all the appeals to the Roman Church by non-Roman Churches and their Bishops?

In any case, lest I be accused of pulling the words of Ireneaus out of context, here is a larger contextual passage from the letter:

“For the controversy is not merely as regards the day (of Easter), but also as regards the form itself of the fast (i.e., Lent). For some consider themselves bound to fast one day, others two days, others still more, while others [do so during] forty: the diurnal and the nocturnal hours they measure out together as their [fasting] day. And this variety among the observers [of the fasts] had not its origin in our time, but long before in that of our predecessors, some of whom probably, being not very accurate in their observance of it, handed down to posterity the custom as it had, through simplicity or private fancy, been [introduced among them]. And yet nevertheless all these lived in peace, one with another, and we also keep peace together. Thus, in fact, the difference [in observing] the fast establishes the harmony of [our common] Faith. ... . Notwithstanding this, those who did not keep [the feast in this way] were peacefully disposed towards those who came to them from other dioceses in which it was [so] observed (although such observance was [felt] in more decided contrariety [as presented] to those who did not fall in with it; and none were ever cast out [of the Church] for this matter. On the contrary, those presbyters who preceded thee (i.e., the earlier Bishop’s of Rome), and who did not observe [this custom], sent the Eucharist to those of other dioceses who did observe it. And when the blessed Polycarp was sojourning in Rome in the time of Anicetus, although a slight controversy had arisen among them as to certain other points, they were at once well inclined towards each other [with regard to the matter in hand], not willing that any quarrel should arise between them upon this head. For neither could Anicetus persuade Polycarp to forego the observance [in his own way], inasmuch as these things had been always [so] observed by John the disciple of our Lord, and by other Apostles with whom he had been conversant; nor, on the other hand, could Polycarp succeed in persuading Anicetus to keep [the observance in his way], for he maintained that he was bound to adhere to the usage of the presbyters who preceded him (i.e, the earlier Bishop’s of Rome, going back to Peter). And in this state of affairs they held fellowship with each other; and Anicetus conceded to Polycarp in the Church the celebration of the Eucharist, by way of showing him respect; so that they parted in peace one from the other, maintaining peace with the whole Church, both those who did observe [this custom] and those who did not. (Epistle of Ireneaus to Pope Victor)

God's Peace,

NewMan
 
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