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Peter and the Keys, Catholicism and the Pope

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Thekla

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In a sense, they did "hold" two different traditions. Or, more accurately, the historical 'reality' of the timing of the passion of Christ and the Resurrection of Christ did not always overlap. One was the association with the Passion of Christ occurring in the context of the Passover (a month). The other was the association of the Resurrection with the day it occurred - Sunday ( a day).

Or, one could note that Passover (association with the Passion of Christ) only sometimes accords with the day of His Resurrection.

Finally, it seems that as we have no extant sources (at least presently brought to the conversation) which describe the practice re: this matter among the other Apostles, nor is there evidence that the Sunday observance of Pascha was solely a Roman practice, it is not within the breadth of the present evidence to claim Roman practice as the (sole) basis of the Sunday Pascha.
 
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Trento

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The Apostles would not teach two different traditions. Like one to the Jews and one to the Gentiles? No way, already that was solved Acts 15.

John and the Synoptics weave together, if done right, perfectly without any loose ends.


If Anicetus was teaching false Tradition would St. Ignatius who was a diciple of St. John praise him in his letter to the Trallians?
Instead he said that Anicetus fulfilled a pure and blameless ministry.

For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ Of God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counsellors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as ... Anicetus and Clement to Peter?"
Ignatius,To the Trallians,7(A.D. 110),in ANF,I:69


I believe Thekla may be correct in her Post.

 
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NewMan99

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The Apostles would not teach two different traditions.

Not two "Traditions" - not two competing and opposing doctrines of Truth. I never said that. I said they may have presented two different LITURGICAL traditions. Very big difference. Each liturgical tradition, while equally valid and apostolic, spoke to different aspects of that One and same Truth.

John and the Synoptics weave together, if done right, perfectly without any loose ends.

Right - and that is exactly my point. They are distinct, and secular scholars sometimes try to pit one against the other. Properly understood, though, they can be woven together just fine in the tapestry known as Christian orthodoxy.
 
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NewMan99

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Mike,

First of all, some things need to be cleared up here. During this era of the early Church, Rome was still the capital of the empire, and indeed the pre-eminent Church in the empire.

None of the early sources say that Rome held primacy because it was the capital of the Empire. While this is clearly why St. Peter (along with St. Paul) based himself in Rome (where "all roads led" ...making the management of a universal Covenant far easier), the church of Rome (like all other city-churches) was an illegal, underground society that was being persecuted by the Roman government. So, early Roman primacy did not come from its associations with the imperial capital, but from its Petrine succession. This is what all the early fathers say. It was only the 5th Century Byzantines (who were trying to promote their "one-Church, one Empire" agenda and create a political theocracy) who first made the claim that Rome held primacy because it was the original capital of the Empire -- the implication being that Constantinople should hold a similar primacy, because it was the "New Rome." But, even at the time, this silly and untenable argument was rejected by Rome and the other Apostolic patriarchates of Alexandria and Antioch, along with the rest of the Church.

Antioch's influence extended from Syria to Mesopotamia, Persia and even India, and Alexandria's influence was over Africa (excepting North Africa, which was traditionally Roman),

Well...not quite...

Alexandria's regional jurisdiction ended at the border between Roman Africa and Libya, as even canon 6 of the Council of Nicaea says. Alexandria did not oversee N. Africa. Rather, Carthage was pat of the patriarchate of Rome. And, as canon 6 of Nicaea also tells us, the regional authority of Alexandria and Antioch was recognized by the Church BECAUSE the Bishop of Rome recognized the regional authority of these patriarchs in these places. In other words, Alexandria and Antioch were under the ultimate jurisdiction of Rome, and the only reason they were regional patriarchates at all was because of their ties of Petrine discipleship to Petrine Rome. As Pope Damasus I in 382 says, responding to the Council of Constantinople I, and rejecting the church of Constantinople's first aborted attempted to make itself the primate in the East in place of Alexandria (the Traditional and Apostolic Eastern primate):

"Although all the Catholic churches spread abroad throughout the world comprise but one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of the churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, Who says: "You are Peter ...(Matt 16:18-19)." In addition to this, there is also the companionship of the vessel of election, the most blessed Apostle Paul who, along with Peter in the city of Rome in the time of Caesar Nero, equally consecrated the above-mentioned holy Roman Church to Christ the Lord; and by their own presence and by their venerable triumph, they set it at the forefront over the others of all the cities of the world. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the Apostle, that of the Roman church, which has neither stain nor blemish, nor anything like that. The second see is that of Alexandria, consecrated on behalf of the blessed Peter by Mark, his disciple and an Evangelist, who was sent to Egypt by the Apostle Peter, where he preached the word of truth and finished his glorious martyrdom. The third see is that of Antioch, which belonged to the most blessed Peter, where first he dwelled before he came to Rome, and where the name "Christians" was first applied, as to a new people." (Decree of Damasus # 3, 382 A.D.)

So, it was by St. Peter's design that Alexandria manage East Africa (along with Arabia and part of India), and that Antioch manage Asia, down into Mesopotamia and India; but they only did this as "satellites" of the Petrine authority of Rome, which remained the final court of appeal for the universal Church. This is undeniable for anyone who consults the historical record.

...and Alexandria also had tremendous theological influence.

As did Antioch. But that's just theology, not Church authority. Alexandria and Antioch were the centers of the two principal theology schools of the early Church. This was both a benefit and a curse, since most of the early heresy battles (e.g. Arianism, Nestorianism, Monophysism, etc.) were initiated because of theological competitions between "scholars" from these two rival schools. In this, Rome had to consistently play the "referee."

Jerusalem was very troubled at the time (several Jewish revolts), and thus it's geographical influence wasn't very great,

Sorry but this is also historically incorrect. Jerusalem did not become a patriarchate until the council of Chalcedon in A.D. 451. Before that time, it was not even a metropolitanate, but was under the metropolitan of Caesarea. When the city of Jerusalem was destroyed in A.D. 70, the original church of Jerusalem was reduced to a tiny community of Jewish Christians; and after the second Jewish revolt in A.D. 130, when the Emperor Hadrian re-named the city "Aelia Capitolina" and forbad any Jew (or even Jewish Christian) from entering the city, the tiny church of Jerusalem became an entirely Gentile church, with no connection to the original Jewish church at all. It was only during the reign of Constantine that Jerusalem was given some importance again; and this was only because Constantine and his mother St. Helena began to built beautiful basilicas over the traditional Christian holy sites, and this inspired a new wave of pilgrimate to Jerusalem (or "Aelia," as it was called). Indeed, canon 7 of the council of Nicaea clearly says that the bishop of Aelia (Jerusalem) should be honored, but should be denied the rights of a metropolitan. Rather, Jerusalem remained under the authority of Caesara, and this continued to be the case under St. Cyril of Jerusalem, who had to stand trial before the (Arian) metropolitan of Caesarea when he was falsely accused by his Arian enemies, and thereafter deposed. It was Bishop Juvernal of Jerusalem (a scheming politician) who called in a lot of political favors at the Council of Chalcedon (451) and succeeded in getting the council to recognize Jerusalem's independence from the patriarchate of Antioch, and have it declared a patriarchate in its own right. Jerusalem was not a patriarchate (or even a metropolitanate) before this time. Rather, the three Apostolic patriarchates were Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch - in THAT order of primacy. The other two patriarchates of Constantinople and Jerusalem are not Apostolic, and were later inventions of the Byzantine imperial court. Most modern Eastern Orthodox seem to be unaware of this historical reality.

...and Constantinople of course didn't exist yet.

That depends on which Eastern Orthodox you ask. LOL. In the 7th Century, the Byzantines adopted the historical fairy tale that the church of Byzantium (later "Constantinople") was established by the Apostle Andrew, and was thus an Apostolic church because of that, supposedly drawing its authority from that Apostle. The reality, however, is that, before Constantine adopted and re-named the city after himself, Byzantium was a minor church that was answerable to the metropolitan of Herculea in Thrace. The first recorded bishop of Byzantium was Metrophanes I (306-314) or (315-327). All of the supposedly earlier bishops popularized by medieval Byzantine succession lists (stretching back to St. Andrew) are completely apocryphal.


Many of the letters you use as 'proof' of the Papacy, were written by churches which were indeed under Roman influence at the time (Greece and Asia Minor, though considered Eastern today, were under Rome's influence at the time). This still doesn't prove a universal jurisdiction.

First of all, the churches of Asia Minor were under the immediate jurisdiction of Antioch, not Rome. Secondly, one of the early fathers referenced was Ignatius of Antioch, who was a patriarch in his own right, but who directly says that Rome "presides in the chief place" and speaks of Rome's teaching of all other churches, including his own. Thirdly, when we look at the rest of the patristic record, we find numerous cases of both Alexandria and Antioch appealing to Rome for decisions and clarifications (but never vise-versa). For example, in about 255, Patriarch St. Dionysius of Alexandria writes to Pope Sixtus II of Rome and asks if it is permissible to re-Baptize a man who was Baptized in a heretical sect and who now maintains that the Baptism was perfomed improperly. This request was based upon Alexandria's earlier acceptance of the recent universal decree issued by Pope Stephen which mandated that heretics should not be re-Baptized on pain of excommunication. This decree of Stephen would later be reaffirmed in the Nicene Creed with the phrase "we believe in one Baptism for the remission of sins." And, about a decade later, this same Patriarch Dionysius of Alexandria stood corrected by Pope Dionysius of Rome (they had the same name) when the Alexandrian Dionysius outraged his flock by teaching that the Son is subordinate to the Father within the Trinity. As St. Athanasius recounts the story, the outraged Alexandrians appealed to Pope Dionysius of Rome, who immediately condemned the teaching, forcing Dionysius of Alexandria to recant; and St. Athanasius (the later, great champion against Arianism, and Patriarch of Alexandria himself) says that Rome therefore condemned the Arian error long before the error seriously raised its head. Likewise, in the early 200's, Patriarch Demetrius of Alexandria appealed to Rome to uphold his condemnation of Origin, who had been ordained a priest without his permission (Origin was a deacon under Patriarch Demetrius of Alexandria) by the metropolitan of Caesarea in Palestine. Origin's illegal ordination created a huge controversy in the Eastern church (because Origin was an intellectual "superstar" at the time), with the Greeks, Syrians, and Cappadocians siding with Origen against the Patriarch of Alexandria, and both sides appealing to Rome for a solution to the matter. Pope Pontian of Rome, however, stood fast with Alexandria (its Petrine satellite in the East), and Origin's ordination was declared null and void - a decision that Origen himself accepted. Likewise, the patriarchate of Antioch also frequently recognized the primacy of Rome, as in the 270's, when the heretical Patriarch of Antioch, Paul of Samosata, was deposed by a local Antiochian council, and the council fathers appealed to Rome to ratify their decision, and Pope Felix I rejected a similar appeal by Paul of Samosata and pronounced him deposed. So, there are MANY examples of Rome's true and jurisdictional primacy in the early Church.

Also, Rome for a long time indeed was an 'authority' - not because of a unique office, but because of the importance of the city, and the succession of Saintly Popes (it's no coincidence that almost all the early Popes were Saints, and almost none of the Popes leading up to the Schism were).

Well...be careful not to fall into the trap of the Dontatist heresy (the belief that ecclesial authority is based on personal sanctity ...which is an error condemned repeatedly by the early Church). You also need to appreciate historical reality, in that the Pope that Photius initially rebelled against, SAINT Nicholas I (858-67), is recognized as a saint in both the Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox Tradition, as is Pope St. Stephen V [VI] (885-91), who also opposed Photius ...as is St. Ignatius of Constantinople, who was the patriarch that Photius unlawfully deposed to usurp his bishopric, which started the whole controversy (Photius attacking the Filioque was merely an attempt to distract from his unlawful appointment at Patriarch in St. Ignatius' place). This period of course set the stage for the Schism, which would take place in 1054, a century later. And, speaking of 1054, the Pope at the time of the actual Schism was SAINT Leo IX (1049-54).

Plus, you must not overlook the fact that NONE of the Patriarchs of Constantinople during a century before OR after the Schism were saints. ...Michael Cerularius was certainty no saint.

Here's the succession, fyi:

Stephanos I (886-893) --younger brother of Emperor Leo VI
Anthony II Kaleas (893-895) --restored communion with Rome.
Nicholas I Mystikos (895-906; 911-925)
Euthymios I (906-911)
Stephanos II (911-928)
Tryphon (928-931)
Theophylaktos (931-956)
Polyeuktos (956-970)
Basil I Skamandrenos (970-974)
Anthony II Studites (974-980)
[Throne Vacant (980-984)]
Nicholas B Chrysoberges (984-995)
Sissinios II (995-998?)
Sergios II Manuelites (998-1019)
Eustathios (1019-l025)
Alexios Studites (1025-1043)
Michael I Cerularios (1043-1057) --schismatic anti-Latin.
Constantine III Leichudes (1057-1064)
John VIII Xiphilinos (1064-1075)
Cosmas I Hierosolymites (1075-1081)
Eustratios Garidas (1081-l084)
Nicholas III Kyrdiniates (1084-1111)
John IX Agapetos (1111-1134)
Leo Styppes (1034-1143)
Michael II Kurkouas (1143-1146)
Kosmas II Attikos (1146-1147)
Nicholas IV Muzalon (1147-1151)
Theodotos II (1151-1153)
Neophytos 1 (1153)
Constantine IV Chliarinos (1154-1156)
Luke Chrysoberges (1156-1169)
Michael III (1169-1177)
Chariton (1177-1178)
Theodosios 1 (1178-1183)
Basil II Kamateros (1183-1187)
Niketas II (l187-1190)
Leontios (1190-1191)
Dositheos (Theodosios?) (1191-1192) ---offered unconditional absolution to any Greek killing a Wester Crusader.

Indeed, the last two patriarchs of Constantinople to be recognized as saints by the Eastern Orthodox Church were Ignatius (846-858; 867-878), who was deposed by Photus and then reinstated by Rome, and Photius himself (858-867; 878-886), who is not recognized as a saint by the West. After this, there is a great shortage of "saintliness" in the see of Constantinople. So, you would do well to look to your own house before criticizing ours. The Pope at the time of the Schism was a saint, the Patriarch of Constantinople was not.

There's still no proof that this authority and reputation couldn't expire, nor that Rome couldn't fall into heresy.

The proof comes from Jesus Christ and from the consistent testimony of the fathers (INCLUDING the Eastern fathers) who associated the promise of Matt 16:18-19 with the See of Rome. Also, if Rome is in heresy, by what authority do you declare it to be so? It's a fair question.

God's Peace,

NewMan
 
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Standing Up

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If Anicetus was teaching false Tradition would St. Ignatius who was a diciple of St. John praise him in his letter to the Trallians?
Instead he said that Anicetus fulfilled a pure and blameless ministry.

For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ Of God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counsellors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as ... Anicetus and Clement to Peter?"
Ignatius,To the Trallians,7(A.D. 110),in ANF,I:69

I believe Thekla may be correct in her Post.

I think that is the key assumption (enlarged font) behind their reasoning. But is that true, do they possess all power and authority? I think not.
 
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NewMan99 wrote: "Polycarp went to explain to the Roman Bishop why the Christians in Asia Minor celebrated the Feast of the Lord's Resurrection on a different date than that celebrated by Rome and the rest of the universal Church. "

I replied: The truth is he went to correct Rome because only Rome at that time celebrated the Feast on a certain day. All the rest celebrated it on a different day. I don't think the Apostles taught two different things to two different groups. Do you?

I'd like to press this point.

Here's Marcus Aurelias' information: "Nearly all the Christian churches, having the Church of Rome at their head, had misplaced the Passover, observing that festival on the Sunday which came before the fourteenth Nisan, and identifying it with the festival of the Resurrection. ... As to the rest of the Christian world, carried away by the example of the Church of Rome, it adopted the anti-Jewish usage. Even the churches of Gaul of Asiatic origin, which at first had doubtless celebrated Easter on the fourteenth Nisan, conformed themselves speedily to the universal calendar, which was the truly Christian calendar. "

As an aside, MA helps to bolster your argument--Rome at the head. The point is, only Rome celebrated Sunday, but the rest of the churches began to follow her lead in opposition to the Apostolic tradition. Here again, is Polycarp and Anicetus. Look closely at who they claim for their authority. Again from M Aurelius:

For neither did Anicet seek to persuade Polycarpus to abandon a practice which he had always kept and which he held from his association with John, the disciple of the Lord, and with the other apostles, nor did Polycarp try to persuade Anicet, he saying that he would keep the customs of the ancients (others say bishops) who had gone before him.

Who you going to follow?

Incidentally, this has absolutely nothing to do with liturgy. Again, look closely at his language Here's Polycrates arguing against Victor, per M Aurelius:

It is we who are faithful to tradition, without adding anything to it, without giving up anything (shades of Revelation's ending). It is in Asia that these great foundation men repose, who will arise on the day of the Lord’s appearing, in that day when He shall come from heaven with glory to raise all the saints: Philip, he who was one of the twelve apostles, who is buried at Hierapolis, also his two daughters who grow old in virginity, not to speak of another daughter who observed during her life the rule of the Holy Spirit, and who reposes at Ephesus; then John, he whose head reclined on the bosom of the Lord, who was pontiff carrying thepetalon, and martyr, and doctor, who also is interred at Ephesus; then Polycarpus, he who was bishop and martyr at Smyrna; then Thraseas, at once bishop and martyr of Eumenia, who is buried at Smyrna. Why speak of Sagaris, bishop and martyr, who is buried at Laodicea, of the blessed Papirius, and of Melito, the holy eunuch, who observed in everything the rule of the Holy Spirit, and rests at Sardis, waiting the heavenly call which shall make him rise among the dead? All these men celebrated Easter on the fourteenth day, according to the Gospel, without innovation of any kind, following the rule of the faith.
 
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I'd also like to repost this:

325ad they (all the Churches that trace their lineage to Nicea) said Quartodecimans were heretics (this would include the Apostles, all seven churches of those in Revelation, etc). 341ad they excommunicated them (what Victor tried, they did).
 
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Mikeb85

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None of the early sources say that Rome held primacy because it was the capital of the Empire. While this is clearly why St. Peter (along with St. Paul) based himself in Rome (where "all roads led" ...making the management of a universal Covenant far easier), the church of Rome (like all other city-churches) was an illegal, underground society that was being persecuted by the Roman government. So, early Roman primacy did not come from its associations with the imperial capital, but from its Petrine succession. This is what all the early fathers say.

Again, where's the proof? You still haven't shown a thing all thread. Yes, Roman Bishops drew succession from St. Peter, as did Bishops in Antioch. There's still no proof of a 'special' office that passed only to Rome. You say there still was no association with the empire, this is correct, I never said there was.

However Rome still was considered a 'pre-eminent' church (along with Antioch and Alexandria) because of their history - Rome being the place of martyrdom for Sts. Peter and Paul, as well as many others, also being the most important city in the known world at the time, Antioch being where believers were first called 'Christians', as well as the most important city in the orient, and Alexandria because of it's position as capital of the richest province in the empire (Egypt), not to mention the historical Jewish connection...

It was only the 5th Century Byzantines (who were trying to promote their "one-Church, one Empire" agenda and create a political theocracy) who first made the claim that Rome held primacy because it was the original capital of the Empire -- the implication being that Constantinople should hold a similar primacy, because it was the "New Rome." But, even at the time, this silly and untenable argument was rejected by Rome and the other Apostolic patriarchates of Alexandria and Antioch, along with the rest of the Church.

Well, we've got a canon of an Ecumenical Council which says Rome was capital because of it's political importance, and history seems to back it up. Petrine Primacy is based on a bunch of misquoted ECFs... And of course some in Alexandria and Antioch rejected Constantinople's position, the first major schism also occured within those churches - because of their unwillingness to submit to authority. Rome too, couldn't accept the fact they were no longer the imperial capital, which led to their 'power grab' later in history...

Alexandria's regional jurisdiction ended at the border between Roman Africa and Libya, as even canon 6 of the Council of Nicaea says. Alexandria did not oversee N. Africa. Rather, Carthage was pat of the patriarchate of Rome.

Did you read what I said? That Alexandria's influence was over Africa except North Africa. Obviously Carthage had been under Rome's influence since the Punic wars...

And, as canon 6 of Nicaea also tells us, the regional authority of Alexandria and Antioch was recognized by the Church BECAUSE the Bishop of Rome recognized the regional authority of these patriarchs in these places.

Reading the council, we find no such thing. Yes, their regional authority was recognized, but it was ancient, and not simply because Rome 'allowed it'.

"Let the ancient customs in Egypt, Libya and Pentapolis prevail, that the Bishop of Alexandria have jurisdiction in all these, since the like is customary for the Bishop of Rome also. Likewise in Antioch and the other provinces, let the Churches retain their privileges. And this is to be universally understood, that if any one be made bishop without the consent of the Metropolitan, the great Synod has declared that such a man ought not to be a bishop. If, however, two or three bishops shall from natural love of contradiction, oppose the common suffrage of the rest, it being reasonable and in accordance with the ecclesiastical law, then let the choice of the majority prevail."

In other words, Alexandria and Antioch were under the ultimate jurisdiction of Rome, and the only reason they were regional patriarchates at all was because of their ties of Petrine discipleship to Petrine Rome. As Pope Damasus I in 382 says, responding to the Council of Constantinople I, and rejecting the church of Constantinople's first aborted attempted to make itself the primate in the East in place of Alexandria (the Traditional and Apostolic Eastern primate):

"Although all the Catholic churches spread abroad throughout the world comprise but one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of the churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, Who says: "You are Peter ...(Matt 16:18-19)." In addition to this, there is also the companionship of the vessel of election, the most blessed Apostle Paul who, along with Peter in the city of Rome in the time of Caesar Nero, equally consecrated the above-mentioned holy Roman Church to Christ the Lord; and by their own presence and by their venerable triumph, they set it at the forefront over the others of all the cities of the world. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the Apostle, that of the Roman church, which has neither stain nor blemish, nor anything like that. The second see is that of Alexandria, consecrated on behalf of the blessed Peter by Mark, his disciple and an Evangelist, who was sent to Egypt by the Apostle Peter, where he preached the word of truth and finished his glorious martyrdom. The third see is that of Antioch, which belonged to the most blessed Peter, where first he dwelled before he came to Rome, and where the name "Christians" was first applied, as to a new people." (Decree of Damasus # 3, 382 A.D.)

So, it was by St. Peter's design that Alexandria manage East Africa (along with Arabia and part of India), and that Antioch manage Asia, down into Mesopotamia and India; but they only did this as "satellites" of the Petrine authority of Rome, which remained the final court of appeal for the universal Church. This is undeniable for anyone who consults the historical record.

Again, where's the proof? Is this an ongoing thing with you? You said you'd provide proof over and over, yet you've provided no such thing. We have canons from 2 different ecumenical councils, and a canon from the Quinisext Council (Trullo), which all confirm the EO version of events. All the RCC has is a bunch of out of context ECF quotes, and claims made by Popes which were never accepted by the universal church.

Sorry but this is also historically incorrect. Jerusalem did not become a patriarchate until the council of Chalcedon in A.D. 451. Before that time, it was not even a metropolitanate, but was under the metropolitan of Caesarea.

Who said anything about it being a 'Patriarchate'? I just mentioned it because it eventually did became a Patriarchate, and because it is the historical birthplace of Christianity.

When the city of Jerusalem was destroyed in A.D. 70, the original church of Jerusalem was reduced to a tiny community of Jewish Christians; and after the second Jewish revolt in A.D. 130, when the Emperor Hadrian re-named the city "Aelia Capitolina" and forbad any Jew (or even Jewish Christian) from entering the city, the tiny church of Jerusalem became an entirely Gentile church, with no connection to the original Jewish church at all. It was only during the reign of Constantine that Jerusalem was given some importance again; and this was only because Constantine and his mother St. Helena began to built beautiful basilicas over the traditional Christian holy sites, and this inspired a new wave of pilgrimate to Jerusalem (or "Aelia," as it was called). Indeed, canon 7 of the council of Nicaea clearly says that the bishop of Aelia (Jerusalem) should be honored, but should be denied the rights of a metropolitan. Rather, Jerusalem remained under the authority of Caesara, and this continued to be the case under St. Cyril of Jerusalem, who had to stand trial before the (Arian) metropolitan of Caesarea when he was falsely accused by his Arian enemies, and thereafter deposed. It was Bishop Juvernal of Jerusalem (a scheming politician) who called in a lot of political favors at the Council of Chalcedon (451) and succeeded in getting the council to recognize Jerusalem's independence from the patriarchate of Antioch, and have it declared a patriarchate in its own right. Jerusalem was not a patriarchate (or even a metropolitanate) before this time. Rather, the three Apostolic patriarchates were Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch - in THAT order of primacy. The other two patriarchates of Constantinople and Jerusalem are not Apostolic, and were later inventions of the Byzantine imperial court. Most modern Eastern Orthodox seem to be unaware of this historical reality.

I'm well aware of the history of the church of Jerusalem. BTW, you've got to be joking or something when you say Jerusalem isn't apostolic - all early sources agree that the first Bishop of Jerusalem was St. James.

That depends on which Eastern Orthodox you ask. LOL. In the 7th Century, the Byzantines adopted the historical fairy tale that the church of Byzantium (later "Constantinople") was established by the Apostle Andrew, and was thus an Apostolic church because of that, supposedly drawing its authority from that Apostle. The reality, however, is that, before Constantine adopted and re-named the city after himself, Byzantium was a minor church that was answerable to the metropolitan of Herculea in Thrace. The first recorded bishop of Byzantium was Metrophanes I (306-314) or (315-327). All of the supposedly earlier bishops popularized by medieval Byzantine succession lists (stretching back to St. Andrew) are completely apocryphal.

Actually Byzantium was under the Metropolitanate of Ephesus, and of course St. Andrew the first called established the church at Ephesus (as well as that in Byzantium, and other churches in Asia minor).

Well...be careful not to fall into the trap of the Dontatist heresy (the belief that ecclesial authority is based on personal sanctity ...which is an error condemned repeatedly by the early Church).

Isn't that what Rome does? Claims that their primacy was based on St. Peter's personal position? The fact is, there was a number of reasons that Rome had primacy in the early church, including being home to so many martyrs and Saints, this is undeniable.

The donatist heresy of course was something else, they claimed that sacraments were invalid if the priest/bishop presiding was sinful, whereas the Orthodox position is that God extends His grace despite the sinfullness of the priest/bishop. At the same time however, this is not proof of a 'mechanical' succession either.

You also need to appreciate historical reality, in that the Pope that Photius initially rebelled against, SAINT Nicholas I (858-67), is recognized as a saint in both the Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox Tradition, as is Pope St. Stephen V [VI] (885-91), who also opposed Photius ...as is St. Ignatius of Constantinople, who was the patriarch that Photius unlawfully deposed to usurp his bishopric, which started the whole controversy (Photius attacking the Filioque was merely an attempt to distract from his unlawful appointment at Patriarch in St. Ignatius' place). This period of course set the stage for the Schism, which would take place in 1054, a century later. And, speaking of 1054, the Pope at the time of the actual Schism was SAINT Leo IX (1049-54).

None of those Popes are recognized as Saints by the Orthodox Church, and of course Photius IS recognized as a Saint.

Plus, you must not overlook the fact that NONE of the Patriarchs of Constantinople during a century before OR after the Schism were saints. ...Michael Cerularius was certainty no saint.

Who said they were? Constantinople could schism and become heretical tomorrow, and our church would still be whole.

The proof comes from Jesus Christ and from the consistent testimony of the fathers (INCLUDING the Eastern fathers) who associated the promise of Matt 16:18-19 with the See of Rome. Also, if Rome is in heresy, by what authority do you declare it to be so? It's a fair question.

God's Peace,

NewMan

Tomorrow I'll start a new thread about this. As for why Rome is in heresy, they went into schism, and deviated from the faith. For example, Canon 7 of the Council of Ephesus...

"When these things had been read, the holy Synod decreed that it is unlawful for any man to bring forward, or to write, or to compose a different (ἑτέραν) Faith as a rival to that established by the holy Fathers assembled with the Holy Ghost in Nicæa."
 
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NewMan99

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Incidentally, this has absolutely nothing to do with liturgy.

It has EVERYTHING to do with liturgy. They were arguing about which date the Feast of the Lord's Ascension should be celebrated on the liturgical calendar. They were not disputing theological issues.

Again, look closely at his language Here's Polycrates arguing against Victor, per M Aurelius:

It is we who are faithful to tradition, without adding anything to it, without giving up anything (shades of Revelation's ending). It is in Asia that these great foundation men repose, who will arise on the day of the Lord’s appearing, in that day when He shall come from heaven with glory to raise all the saints: Philip, he who was one of the twelve apostles, who is buried at Hierapolis, also his two daughters who grow old in virginity, not to speak of another daughter who observed during her life the rule of the Holy Spirit, and who reposes at Ephesus; then John, he whose head reclined on the bosom of the Lord, who was pontiff carrying thepetalon, and martyr, and doctor, who also is interred at Ephesus; then Polycarpus, he who was bishop and martyr at Smyrna; then Thraseas, at once bishop and martyr of Eumenia, who is buried at Smyrna. Why speak of Sagaris, bishop and martyr, who is buried at Laodicea, of the blessed Papirius, and of Melito, the holy eunuch, who observed in everything the rule of the Holy Spirit, and rests at Sardis, waiting the heavenly call which shall make him rise among the dead? All these men celebrated Easter on the fourteenth day, according to the Gospel, without innovation of any kind, following the rule of the faith.

Carefully read the first and last sentence. The first sentence refers to a "tradition". So what "tradition" is this? The last sentence gives the answer:

"All these men celebrated Easter on the fourteenth day, according to the Gospel, without innovation of any kind, following the rule of the faith."

The "tradition" that is the source of the controversy is when the Feast Day is supposed to fall on the LITURGICAL CALENDAR. And here there were two different liturgical traditions, each of them equally apostolic and each of them equally valid. They were not debating IF the Lord arose or what theological implications followed from the Resurrection. They were only debating IF the universal Church should celebrate the Feast Day on the same date.
 
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Rick Otto

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They were only debating IF the universal Church should celebrate the Feast Day on the same date.
Polycarp followed apostolic tradition & Anicetus rejected apostolic tradition.
Just like there was a Judas in the apostles, there was one in the Roman bishopric.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Polycarp followed apostolic tradition & Anicetus rejected apostolic tradition.
Just like there was a Judas in the apostles, there was one in the Roman bishopric.
:angel::angel::angel:

Pope Anicetus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pope Saint Anicetus was Bishop of Rome from about 154 to about 167 (the Vatican's list cites 150 or 157 to 153 or 168). His name is Greek for unconquered. He was a Syrian from the city of Emesa (modern-day Hims), Syria.

According to Saint Irenaeus, it was during his pontificate that the aged Saint Polycarp of Smyrna, a disciple of Saint John the Evangelist, visited the Roman Church.

St Polycarp and St Anicetus discussed the celebration of Passover. Polycarp and his Church of Smyrna celebrated the crucifixion on the fourteenth day of Nisan, which coincides with Pesach or Passover. The day of the week was not important in the East. On the other hand, the Roman Church celebrated an Easter Passover on Sunday—the weekday of Jesus' resurrection.

The two did not agree on a common date, but Anicetus conceded to St Polycarp and the Church of Smyrna the ability to retain the date to which they were accustomed, thereby denying Easter as a separate holiday. The controversy was to accelerate and grow heated in the course of the following centuries.
 
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NewMan99

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Mike,

I am short on time today so I don't know if I will be able to respond in any sort of comprehensive way to your last post. At least not today. And as I have expressed numerous times in this thread, I am getting weary of this anyway. There are so many things in your last post I disagree with I don't even know where to begin - even if I had the time and energy in the first place.

The likelihood of me participating in a new thread (assuming you start a new one) is probably zero. But have fun with it anyway.

But I would like to address a few things in the meantime:

Again, where's the proof? You still haven't shown a thing all thread.

That's your argument? Rather than really deal in any substantive way with the implications of words/actions of Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, and Dionysius, you just ignore/dismiss them and claim I haven't shown a thing? Fine. As I said several times, there will be people for whom no amount of evidence will suffice.

There's still no proof of a 'special' office that passed only to Rome.

Except, of course, for the words/actions of the five ECFs I called to the witness stand. If the words/actions of these men (who were not just average Joe laypeople, btw) don't illustrate that Rome was pre-eminent in AUTHORITY and not just honor, then the texts are either spurious or those men were liars.

However Rome still was considered a 'pre-eminent' church (along with Antioch and Alexandria) because of their history -

The only reason? Yes - its history is part of the overall picture...but that is not the ONLY reason...and it wasn't the only reason given by the ECFs for the deference shown to Rome.

Petrine Primacy is based on a bunch of misquoted ECFs...

Oh I see. So rather than deal with what the Fathers actually said and what they actually did (that is to say, if the Fathers didn't mean what they said, then why did they do what they did? The deference they showed in their actions match the deference they gave in their words)...instead you accuse us of misquoting them. Fine...take the quotes I gave and provide for us evidence of me taking them out of context.

Again, where's the proof? Is this an ongoing thing with you? You said you'd provide proof over and over, yet you've provided no such thing.

First of all, please play nice and keep it civil.

Secondly, I offered lots of evidence to support my claim that the Apostolic Era Church: 1) acted as if the Roman Church had jurisdictional authority beyond its local geography, and 2) SAID that Rome presided over the other Churches. I provided it - deal with it. Merely dismissing it and accusing me of not offering anything is not the same thing as a credible argument.

Thirdly, recall exactly what it was I promised to provide evidence for. I promised to show where the Church during the first and second centuries (first and second hand witnesses to the Apostles themselves...that was the ONLY evidence I promised) ALREADY recognized Roman authority LONG before Constantine legalized the Church and long before an Emperor supposedly gave the Roman Church more authority than it had previously. That was the *narrow* focus of my analysis. I never promised to include within it later historical/patristic issues from Councils etc... Heck, my analysis was long enough as it was. I didn't want to write a book. So please do not criticize me for not talking about a topic I never promised to talk about in my analysis in the first place.

Tomorrow I'll start a new thread about this. As for why Rome is in heresy, they went into schism, and deviated from the faith. For example, Canon 7 of the Council of Ephesus...

"When these things had been read, the holy Synod decreed that it is unlawful for any man to bring forward, or to write, or to compose a different (ἑτέραν) Faith as a rival to that established by the holy Fathers assembled with the Holy Ghost in Nicæa."

Sure...another canon that actually does nothing to prove what you hope it will...but like I said...have fun with it.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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NewMan99 said:
CJ,

Regarding 491. I cannot promise I will respond much more in this thread. It is still beyond obvious to me that you continue to lack a fundamental grasp of what I have even said or what it is that I have set out to provide evidence for. Responding to your comments has thus far proven to be fruitless at best and frustrating to the extreme. So rather than get angry at what I perceive to be your continued obfuscations and obstinate refusal to engage in what I am actually saying, it is best if I just let you have the last word. I care too much for you as a person to fall into the trap of losing my patience (even more than I already have) and responding less than charitably than I should.


My brother and respected Catholic apologist,

I’m very sad that you are opting out of your ministry here as an apologist to this issue.
I’m very sad that you seem to regard me intellectually insufficient to understand you.
And very sad that your frustration is so great you feel on the verge of anger and incivility.

Friend, YOU are the apologist here that volunteered to address the issue here; I’m just a 21 year old nothing that expressed my appreciation for your offer. I’m not even attempting to engage in debate with you because I’m so NOT in your “league” – as I’ve repeatedly stated. I’m just studying carefully what you post – and responding in what to me seems like obvious ways, with immediate and obvious points and questions. Your growing anger and frustration toward me has been privately noticed, however, I admit. See posts 467 and 473; this is when I became fully aware of such and the imputation of offense where you know none was implied.

My brother in Christ, YOU are the sole one to drive this. YOU are the one who insisted that Jesus established the Papacy of the RCC during His earthly ministry (which means ca. 30 AD or before), YOU are the one who defined the Papacy and its distinctives/characteristics. YOU are the one who insisted that you could evidence that the Papacy as you defined was established by Jesus. I have been the one with an alternative view: that the RCC Papacy (and I’ve accepted YOUR definition for the sake of our discussion) began its development AFTER Jesus, and evolved (“steps toward”) over the course of some centuries within that singular ______________ (insert word you prefer for denomination). But this isn’t a debate, my view is moot, rather, I’ve simply been studying what YOU have said as an accomplished, esteemed and respected Catholic Apologist who promised to provide the historical documentation for your claim(s).


My full brother, while I claim NOTHING for myself other than I’m a sinner, I do not think that I can be generally characterized as too stupid, too dumb, too low in IQ, to understand dogmatic historical facts. I’m but a young layperson, but IMHO, not a particularly stupid one below the ability to teach. I honestly don’t think so. So, while I feel your growing frustration, I don’t accept that my stupidity is the cause of such. I just don’t.


Friend and unseparated brother, your claim is that Jesus founded the papacy of The Catholic Church. Thus, you have 3 things to confirm: That JESUS did this. That this was in or before 30 AD since you don’t agree with the Mormons that Jesus came back for this but that Jesus did this during His earthly ministry which is generally thought to have ended before 31 AD (and perhaps earlier). And that what He founded is THE Papacy of the RCC as YOU have defined such – with the characteristics, aspects, etc. that YOU have stated during the course of this thread. There’s only one issue: Have you done what you promised to do: historically evidence such to be true? IMHO, the questions and comments I have made, while perhaps lacking in the intellectualism you desire, are obvious and natural ones, ones I think any reasonable person would ask of you – and I suspect, have and do.

My brother, your first “witness” was SIXTY YEARS after the event (causing a rather obvious and natural response from me – not an “obfuscating and obstinate” one, not a stupid and ignorant one. And what you posted had nothing to do with The Papacy of the RCC as YOU (not me) defined such. I think that obvious and natural. Some of our Orthodox brothers and sisters noted that Clement actually shows steps toward ITS understanding – undermining your point, as I read what you said (and especially your embrace of the comment of the historian you so greatly admire) that Clement AT MOST supports the Protestant position that here, at most, we see the “first step toward” an understanding of the Papacy. What I tried to respectfully convey is that you needed to go earlier and supply evidence for the Catholic position rather than the Orthodox and/or Protestant positions in order to evidence your position. Instead, from my quick read of your last two posts, you went in the other direction, continuing to weaken your position and give validity to mine. But, I will give those posts my full and complete attention with a very open mind and heart. I can’t increase my IQ, but I will apply what I’ve got, lol!

Again, I’m SAD you are giving up. And especially SAD for your stated reasons for that.



But, I thank you for your efforts, anyway. And continue to respect you. I promise to carefully study your last posts to me, and probably will reply even though I know you are disengaging from the discussion.


I passionately HOPE you gained SOMETHING out of our chat – other than frustration and anger. Otherwise, I have only sadness for it.


God’s blessings to you, my brother!




.
 
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Mikeb85

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That's your argument? Rather than really deal in any substantive way with the implications of words/actions of Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, and Dionysius, you just ignore/dismiss them and claim I haven't shown a thing? Fine. As I said several times, there will be people for whom no amount of evidence will suffice.

Meh, I've dealt with the writings of pretty much all of them at some point (I've read the ENTIRE documents that the RCC pulls quotes out of), but have no idea where those posts went (I don't remember if it was this thread or another). I'll agree with you when you say this is getting tiring...

Except, of course, for the words/actions of the five ECFs I called to the witness stand. If the words/actions of these men (who were not just average Joe laypeople, btw) don't illustrate that Rome was pre-eminent in AUTHORITY and not just honor, then the texts are either spurious or those men were liars.

There's a difference between a pre-eminent authority which is first among the churches (which is how Orthodox view Rome in the earliest days of the church), and an infallible and permanent office with supreme jurisdiction and power...
 
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It has EVERYTHING to do with liturgy. They were arguing about which date the Feast of the Lord's Ascension should be celebrated on the liturgical calendar. They were not disputing theological issues.



Carefully read the first and last sentence. The first sentence refers to a "tradition". So what "tradition" is this? The last sentence gives the answer:

"All these men celebrated Easter on the fourteenth day, according to the Gospel, without innovation of any kind, following the rule of the faith."

The "tradition" that is the source of the controversy is when the Feast Day is supposed to fall on the LITURGICAL CALENDAR. And here there were two different liturgical traditions, each of them equally apostolic and each of them equally valid. They were not debating IF the Lord arose or what theological implications followed from the Resurrection. They were only debating IF the universal Church should celebrate the Feast Day on the same date.

Let's back into the issue, shall we?

Christ died on the 14th, say the Quartodecimans. Christ rose on Sunday, says Rome.

Given the HUGE argument with death, heretics, excommunication stances over the first 300 years and the claims of apostolic succession versus bishoprick succession, what do you see is the underlying assumption people make between the 14th and Sunday?

You say this is only a liturgical issue. What assumption have you made to assert as much? Why would I say it has nothing to do with that? We can assume we're both reasonable men :).
 
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Rick Otto

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You say this is only a liturgical issue.
Standard Operating Procedure. Introduce new redefinable terms to swamp the issue.
Liturgy is in the domain of faith and we all know who is infallable on faith & morals, not the apostles w/their tradition as delivered by Polycarp, but Pope Anicetus who preferred convenience & his own traditions.
 
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Standard Operating Procedure. Introduce new redefinable terms to swamp the issue.
Liturgy is in the domain of faith and we all know who is infallable on faith & morals, not the apostles w/their tradition as delivered by Polycarp, but Pope Anicetus who preferred convenience & his own traditions.


St. Ignatius was a diciple of St. John and when he wrote his letter to the Trallians was on his way to Martyrdom for Christ. He tells us in his letter that Anicetus fulfilled a pure and blameless ministry so i'll believe St. Ignatius before opinions from modern men.

For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ Of God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counsellors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as Anicetus and Clement to Peter?"
Ignatius,To the Trallians,7(A.D. 110),in ANF,I:69
 
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TraderJack

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Finally, it seems that as we have no extant sources (at least presently brought to the conversation) which describe the practice re: this matter among the other Apostles, nor is there evidence that the Sunday observance of Pascha was solely a Roman practice, it is not within the breadth of the present evidence to claim Roman practice as the (sole) basis of the Sunday Pascha.

I beg to differ. Polycarp was the disciple of John the Beloved, and had contact with both Peter in Antioch and Paul in Ephesus.

Anicetus had NO direct Apostolic connection at all.

It seems reasonable to think that Polycarp and the eastern churches were indeed following Apostolic Tradition in their adherance to the 14 Nisan date of Pasqua, as opposed to the Roman version.
 
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TraderJack

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If Anicetus was teaching false Tradition would St. Ignatius who was a diciple of St. John praise him in his letter to the Trallians?
Instead he said that Anicetus fulfilled a pure and blameless ministry.


Yeah, and you are citing a known forgery in that epistle.

Typical of Romans to invent "facts" that are tilted in their favor. That kind of manufacturing "facts" and "history" has a long "tradition" in Rome.
 
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