Homosexuals and Bisexuals

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Fenny the Fox

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God certainly could have created a world without metal, in which case we wouldn't have guns that kill. Metal is not crucial to human survival. But he made metal anyway, knowing that we would use it to create guns that kill. So yes, he is responsible.

It wouldn't even impinge upon free will if he created a world without metal. We have a world without the means to make lightsabers that kill, and that doesn't affect free will, so why not a world without the means to make guns?

The "world without metal" theory has to also take into consideration that were that the case, the human body would have to be vastly different in function and structure. Otherwise everyone would die anyway.

And, what is to say that we will not be able to actually make "lightsabers" (of a sort) in the future?


I do not believe though, that the availability of weapons has any effect on free will. So, therefore, I do not believe that God is responsible for the deaths caused by weapons (guns or otherwise).
 
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Wiccan_Child

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The "world without metal" theory has to also take into consideration that were that the case, the human body would have to be vastly different in function and structure. Otherwise everyone would die anyway.

And, what is to say that we will not be able to actually make "lightsabers" (of a sort) in the future?


I do not believe though, that the availability of weapons has any effect on free will. So, therefore, I do not believe that God is responsible for the deaths caused by weapons (guns or otherwise).
If someone is able, but unwilling, to stop a crime, are they not as culpable as the criminals themselves? If I could stop someone committing arson, but I actively and knowingly choose not to, surely I too am guilty of arson?
 
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Fenny the Fox

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If someone is able, but unwilling, to stop a crime, are they not as culpable as the criminals themselves? If I could stop someone committing arson, but I actively and knowingly choose not to, surely I too am guilty of arson?

I never brought into the equation a second person.

Were there to be a second person that is capable to, but does not, stop a crime, I do believe they are as guilty as the perpetrator.
 
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b&wpac4

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It is unethical to apply a religious moral standard onto others in a nation that has no recognized religion. To do so is to attempt to setup a theocracy. No matter how many Bible quotes you can bring up, you'll never find the story where Jesus marched into Caesar's palace and forced him to live differently. Those morals are only for believers, not for everybody. Pretty much every attempt that was made to force people into some sort of religious belief has failed miserably, either through many, many deaths, or the creation of an underground practice of the original religion.
 
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Fenny the Fox

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I think the topic of the thread is homosexuals and biosexuals... This is an E&M forum not Christian apologetics ;)
I do agree.
So...I go back to the last post that actually even mentions Homosexuality/bisexuality.

Gay people should only control their feelings if they feel they should, not if you feel they should. Homosexuality is generally harmless; murder is obviously not.

The bare fact is that preaching homosexuality as wrong is not harmless as you asserted. The fact that you think it is justified by scripture does not change that fact.

The question to be answered is: is homosexuality harmless, as you you say?

If you simply refer to the affection of one to another of the same-sex, I would agree.
If you mean the act of participating to homosexual sex, I disagree. But that is the case with any sexual activity, homosexual activity does represent a higher chance of medical repercussions.

As for preaching against it, I think it has to do with the way it is preached.
To simply share Christ's love and to show them in the Bible that it is marked as a sin is not harmful.
But to tell them it is damning or such is harmful.
As is the case with any activity marked as sin.
 
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beechy

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The question to be answered is: is homosexuality harmless, as you you say?

If you simply refer to the affection of one to another of the same-sex, I would agree.
If you mean the act of participating to homosexual sex, I disagree. But that is the case with any sexual activity, homosexual activity does represent a higher chance of medical repercussions.
That argument has only ever been applied to sex between men, not sex between women.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I never brought into the equation a second person.

Were there to be a second person that is capable to, but does not, stop a crime, I do believe they are as guilty as the perpetrator.
Then I submit that God is guilty of every crime ever committed.
;)
 
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Philothei

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It is unethical to apply a religious moral standard onto others in a nation that has no recognized religion. To do so is to attempt to setup a theocracy. No matter how many Bible quotes you can bring up, you'll never find the story where Jesus marched into Caesar's palace and forced him to live differently. Those morals are only for believers, not for everybody. Pretty much every attempt that was made to force people into some sort of religious belief has failed miserably, either through many, many deaths, or the creation of an underground practice of the original religion.

the discussion was between two Christians me and Polycarp. I do not think also anyone wants to go into someone's house and tell them what they should do or not do with their lives. That is not the point at all. Christ did "convert" Matthew who was a man who lived a lifestyle that relgiious men did not live. Or you will tell me that he did not "judge" Matthew for his living or that Seoul who was percecuting Christians did not had a "change of heart" and quit what his secular state told him to do? So they did not oppose Roman law? Those martyrs did not tell people not to believe in the idols? Or Christ "bowed" to the roman idols? I think not. Who is talking about deaths? I do not think anyone talked about any sort of perse cution here.. ONLY indocrination of the homosexual lifestyle that we are entitled too as citizens of a free society... We just do not want to be taught about pop pscychology.
 
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beechy

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.. ONLY indocrination of the homosexual lifestyle that we are entitled too as citizens of a free society... We just do not want to be taught about pop pscychology.
What indoctrination are you entitled to as a citizen of a free society?

Can you give me an example of a time you were taught about pop psychology?
 
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b&wpac4

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the discussion was between two Christians me and Polycarp.
Which discussion are you alluding to? I am not involving myself in your disucssion, hense I didn't quote anything.
I do not think also anyone wants to go into someone's house and tell them what they should do or not do with their lives. That is not the point at all.
Then we are in completely agreement! You will support legislation that allows for same-sex marriage in the United States so those people can live, inside of their house, the way they want? If your answer is no, please explain to me how you are not telling them how they can live?

Christ did "convert" Matthew who was a man who lived a lifestyle that relgiious men did not live. Or you will tell me that he did not "judge" Matthew for his living or that Seoul who was percecuting Christians did not had a "change of heart" and quit what his secular state told him to do? So they did not oppose Roman law?
Both of your examples use the word convert, which implies they changed their mind to that way of thinking. I am talking about those who wish not to convert and comply with Christianity. People like me, for example. Why do I have to live by your standard? Why are you not forced to live by mine?
Those martyrs did not tell people not to believe in the idols? Or Christ "bowed" to the roman idols? I think not.
This doesn't even make sense and is a wild remark compared to what I was talking about. I can tell you not to believe in Jesus, does that mean I can then apply my beliefs and moral standards to you? No, it does not. Unless you convert to my way of thinking, then you would want to apply the standards upon yourself.
Who is talking about deaths? I do not think anyone talked about any sort of perse cution here.. ONLY indocrination of the homosexual lifestyle that we are entitled too as citizens of a free society... We just do not want to be taught about pop pscychology.

I am talking about the countless times in human histroy where people attempted to force others to their belief system or morality. It causes problems and strife. We live in a nation that does not recognize one religion over another, so why some insist that their religious beliefs rule the day?
 
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gnomon

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And, on the subject if intersex individuals, as that was not even possible to know until modern genetics, I don't think it can be expected to be represented in the bible. Although, I suppose it is possible to take some relevance from the verses in Matthew that talk of "born eunuchs", granted I think it best to leave that verse as a metaphor for celibacy.

Hindu culture predating the Jewish religion recognizes the existence of intersex individuals. My guess is that within semitic cultures such individuals were somehow classed male or female under a certain criteria or that societies with more strict patriarchal structures would not account for them.

Given that recognition of an intersex individual can be made visually for many conditions I seriously doubt that people of the past never encountered such individuals.
 
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Philothei

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What indoctrination are you entitled to as a citizen of a free society?

Can you give me an example of a time you were taught about pop psychology?
Such as Gay and Lesbians awareness week...this converstation is getting circular though ;)
 
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b&wpac4

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Such as Gay and Lesbians awareness week...this converstation is getting circular though ;)

Awareness, implying that we tell children that such people exist and, more than likely, should not be hated simply for who they are. Care to produce evidence that this is something more, or are you just going on your own feelings and anecdotal tales?
 
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Philothei

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Which discussion are you alluding to? I am not involving myself in your disucssion, hense I didn't quote anything.

Then we are in completely agreement! You will support legislation that allows for same-sex marriage in the United States so those people can live, inside of their house, the way they want? If your answer is no, please explain to me how you are not telling them how they can live?


Both of your examples use the word convert, which implies they changed their mind to that way of thinking. I am talking about those who wish not to convert and comply with Christianity. People like me, for example. Why do I have to live by your standard? Why are you not forced to live by mine?
I do neither ... I do not want to force you ... The homosexuals want to "marry" while they know marriage was between man and a woman... So who is messing up with the concept of marriage? Not the Christians for sure. The question is why do you want to live by Christian standards? or even cultural standards of the past?? Why I am not? I am I am forced to send my kid to "awarness seminars" about homosexuality... that is now being "forced"as not to show means that my child is absent and marked as such... Pity... what pop psychology has accomplished today....
This doesn't even make sense and is a wild remark compared to what I was talking about. I can tell you not to believe in Jesus, does that mean I can then apply my beliefs and moral standards to you? No, it does not. Unless you convert to my way of thinking, then you would want to apply the standards upon yourself.


I am talking about the countless times in human histroy where people attempted to force others to their belief system or morality. It causes problems and strife. We live in a nation that does not recognize one religion over another, so why some insist that their religious beliefs rule the day?


So why question me ;) I think we can just leave it alone. I already said that majority is entitled to its rights. And if Christians are the majority who do not wish their children in public schools be indocrinized they can do that through their votes. We still have democracy with majority ruling the last time I checked. And if the majority of voters do not wish to have homosexual marriages as they do believe those marriages are to be between male and female then why "impose that" to them? That would mean the majority does agree to that.

I personally would have no problem calling them unions and have them be "legal" unions. Bottom line I would not "blame" Christians for such legislation but honesty Democracy... If you all have a better system you want to experiment with maybe anarchy would be a better system ;) Even in Rome you had Democracy... with majority ruling. You had a theocracy with the Roman Emperor demanding to be worshiped.... Sure Christ did not ask people to revolt against the Romans... No state is absolute secular. Even in communism that is considered atheistic the "good for the people" at least humanism was in place.
Are we conserned here about religion or politics? Not sure...
 
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b&wpac4

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So why question me ;) I think we can just leave it alone. I already said that majority is entitled to its rights. And if Christians are the majority who do not wish their children in public schools be indocrinized they can do that through their votes. We still have democracy with majority ruling the last time I checked. And if the majority of voters do not wish to have homosexual marriages as they do believe those marriages are to be between male and female then why "impose that" to them? That would mean the majority does agree to that.

Were the majority to decide that Christians were evil heathens that should be exiled from the nation, would you just shrug and go along with that or would you stand up for your rights to stay? We do not live in a majority rule nation, only someone unfamiliar with our processes would assume we are. A true democracy with majority rule is scary. Those who wish to be ruled by a simple majority are even more frightening.
 
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Philothei

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Awareness, implying that we tell children that such people exist and, more than likely, should not be hated simply for who they are. Care to produce evidence that this is something more, or are you just going on your own feelings and anecdotal tales?
I will decide what my child will be taught the same way you would not want me to teach your child how to be "turning the other cheek" as a christian or that Christ is God. I just do not want the state to teach my child who is living a sinful lifestyle and who is not. Why you have proof of many children of Christians who have "discriminated" against homosexuals lately? I have seen hate groups against homosexuals but that is a minority


I do not teach hate and no Chrisitan (in his right mind) would. All these are excuses to indocrinize and prosylitize for the homosexual agenda driven lobbies in our government. BTW those hate groups do have their own schools I would say you go against them not us the mainstream chrisitans.
 
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Fenny the Fox

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Hindu culture predating the Jewish religion recognizes the existence of intersex individuals. My guess is that within semitic cultures such individuals were somehow classed male or female under a certain criteria or that societies with more strict patriarchal structures would not account for them.

Given that recognition of an intersex individual can be made visually for many conditions I seriously doubt that people of the past never encountered such individuals.

True.
As well as some traditional Native American cultures.
I was only speaking of it on a scientific level. While the Hindu culture acknowledged it and the Native American cultures went so far as to specify a third gender, it was only within recent years that it was shown to be a scientifically explainable situation. I think much of the Native and Hindu idea of it can also be explained, at least partly, by gender and not entirely by sex.

Then I submit that God is guilty of every crime ever committed.
;)

Message me or start a new thread and I will discuss that all you want.:D

That argument has only ever been applied to sex between men, not sex between women.

This is true. But this is mostly because, medically speaking, sex between two women carries less risk than that of a heterosexual relation. Therefore, what need is there to make an argument for it?

(I suppose I should edit that post to be more correct in this point?)
 
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b&wpac4

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I will decide what my child will be taught the same way you would not want me to teach your child how to be "turning the other cheek" as a christian or that Christ is God. I just do not want the state to teach my child who is living a sinful lifestyle and who is not. Why you have proof of many children of Christians who have "discriminated" against homosexuals lately? I have seen hate groups against homosexuals but that is a minority

I don't think the topic of "sinful lifestyles" is ever brought up in schools. Saying that there are homosexual families is a factual statement. Why would you want the school not to relay factual information to your child? Are you horrified when they are taught that there are Jewish, Hindu, or Muslim families? Sin is a purely religious topic, and I would be quite shocked if a school ever taught on it outside of a comparison religion class.

Teaching children that they should not attack the children that come from different types of families than they have is a good lesson. I don't know why you object to it so harshly. Obviously the "this lifestyle is sinful" aspect is your job as a parent to convey to your child. Religious lessons belong in church and at home, not in a public school.

Also, would a parent have the right to go to the school and demand their child not be taught geometry? How about history? Science? If the school is teaching from a factual point of view, I don't think you have the right to say they cannot teach your child facts. It is a fact that homosexual people exist, just like it is a fact that Christians exist. It is not a fact that homosexuality is a sin, that is a religious concept which falls under faith not fact.
 
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