How do you know that god is moral?

[Hooksta]

The baby went to be with GOD. Both David & Bathsheba had to deal with a tragic loss that they knew was of their own making...

Don't let the pro-choice people hear your explanation of child murder...you'll give them ammunition.

Seriously, shouldn't God's law (commandment) be changed then to "Those that commit adultery will lose their child" rather than say they should be stoned to death? Why make a rule and then not follow it?

 

[Maren]

Satan is a creation and not the CREATOR.

I do believe GOD placed within each of us a motivation to consider GOD.
GOD is moral because HE is LOVE & RIGHTEOUS and both would seem to be good things.

But again, it is God claiming that Satan was created and that Satan is evil. Wouldn't an immoral god be claiming the same thing? Why would an immoral god care that he is lying to his followers?

 

[ebia]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

If God was really all-powerful, then why was he unnable to rid the world of evil?

I'm not a big fan of terms like "all-powerful".

God can wipe out evil, but there are two possible modes for doing so. One is to simply wipe it out by force - and the Noah story is an explanation of why that's not a good idea. The other is to get involved in the messy, long term, job of working with us to remove our evil, and the bible is the story of God doing that through the call of Abraham and his descendents, climaxing with Jesus, and continuing with us.

Mass extinction, whilst effective at removing a whole lot of evil, it removes a whole lot of good, also. Not to mention an whole lot of just about everything else.

Exactly. It's not a solution that works - and the Noah story is an explanation of that.

God, if real, is a cruel and twisted one, who sees mankind as nothing more than peices on a gameboard for him to slaughter and enslave as he pleases.

Of course you should reject that idea of god, but that's not the picture of God I get from Jesus of Nazareth.

 

[mpok1519]

GOD created a perfect chereb, who had choice. Satan chose to try to usurp GOD...

so, it was God's choice to create the devil through a social experiment of kantian categorical imperative; God being omniscient and all-knowing, would have forseen the devil's rebellion, and he is all creating so he created this situation with the knowledge of what was going to happen. Since god's creation did exactly what God knew it was going to do (and perhaps God made it happen in the first place), God created sin, and the devil, and evil.

But, does the creation of pain, evil and suffering necessarily mean an evil God?

 

[Washington]

so, it was God's choice to create the devil through a social experiment of kantian categorical imperative; God being omniscient and all-knowing, would have forseen the devil's rebellion, and he is all creating so he created this situation with the knowledge of what was going to happen. Since god's creation did exactly what God knew it was going to do (and perhaps God made it happen in the first place), God created sin, and the devil, and evil.

But, does the creation of pain, evil and suffering necessarily mean an evil God?

Well, does the creation of pain, and suffering fit the definition of evil?

EVIL:

(Encarta)
1. morally bad: profoundly immoral or wrong

2. harmful: deliberately causing great harm, pain, or upset
This evil act is clearly the work of terrorists.

3. causing misfortune: characterized by, bringing, or signifying bad luck
an evil omen

4. malicious: characterized by a desire to cause hurt or harm



(Cambridge)
1. immoral, cruel, or very unpleasant:
2. something that is very bad and harmful:



(Webster)
Adj.
2. causing pain or trouble; harmful; injurious
offensive or disgusting
4. threatening or bringing misfortune; unlucky; disastrous

noun
1. anything morally bad or wrong; wickedness; depravity; sin
2. anything that causes harm, pain, misery, disaster, etc.
​

If it does then the originator of such evil would be considered evil, just as we consider the originator of good to be good.

 

[mpok1519]

I see your point; but, without pain, suffering, and evil, wouldnt pleasure, enjoyment, and good, inherantly not exist?

If death wasn't seen as a sad, mournful or bad thing, would that take the meaning out of life itself?

I see it like this; good cannot exist if there is no opposite to give any real value to the meaning of 'good'. If death wasn't seen as either good or bad, but just, indifferent, would we treat human life with any less value?

Its the whole "can good exist without evil/vice vera" argument; if life without the single slightest bit of 'evil' or 'harm' or 'pain' or 'suffering' was normal, that would mean there'd be no suhc thing as enjoyment, pleasure, happiness and good.

Perhaps God made good, which inherantly created evil. OR, God made evil things first so as to instigate good to balance it out? Would that be the acts fo an evil God?

but this discussion is all hypothetical anyways, as God himself is hypothetical for the purposes of well-thought discussion.

 

[Washington]

I see your point; but, without pain, suffering, and evil, wouldnt pleasure, enjoyment, and good, inherantly not exist?

Those things that bring us pleasure, enjoyment, and good would still be there and do the same, it's just that there would be no reason to distinguish them as being pleasurable, enjoyable, and good.

If death wasn't seen as a sad, mournful or bad thing, would that take the meaning out of life itself?

That would depend on what one considered the meaning of life.

I see it like this; good cannot exist if there is no opposite to give any real value to the meaning of 'good'.

And if there were no opposite there would be no need to give the good any particular value. It would simply be the way life was.

If death wasn't seen as either good or bad, but just, indifferent, would we treat human life with any less value?

I would imagine that would depend on a whole slew of factors.

Perhaps God made good, which inherantly created evil. OR, God made evil things first so as to instigate good to balance it out? Would that be the acts fo an evil God?

Because I don't see any need to create evil in order to have good, god's creation of evil certainly does come across as an evil deed.

 

[shinbits]

Read my post (3 posts up). Now please tell me that you are willing to kill your children if they "curse you"! Do you think that killing people simply because they deny God exists is right? After all God does specifically commands us to do so!

lol. as SOON as I mention not isolating texts, you immediately isolate one and take it out of context with the rest of the Bible. give yourself a hand.

the New Testament did away with that. following the Bible IN CONTEXT would make a utopian world.

 

[shinbits]

Actually it is the Muslims that still uphold God's laws as given in the 10 commandments. Are the 10 commandments not supposed to be followed today also?

1st. Commandment, Exodus 20:3 “Thou shalt have no other gods before me”. Old Testament punishment - Deuteronomy 17:1-5 “And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heavens, which I have not commanded. Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing and shalt stone them with stones, till they die”. Deuteronomy 13:6-10, “If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is of thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. Thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God." Exodus 22:20 “He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed”. New Testament punishment - Mark 16:16 “He that believeth not, shall be damned”.
2nd. Commandment, Exodus 20:4 “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water below.” Old Testament punishment- Deuteronomy 27: 1 5 “Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image.”
3rd. Commandment, Exodus 20:7 “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain”. Old Testament punishment - Leviticus 24:16 “And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death”, New Testament punishment - Matthew 12:32 “Whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come”. Mark 3:29 - “He that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgivness, but is in danger of eternal damnation”.
4th. Commandment, Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy”. Old Testament punishment - Exodus 31:15 “Whosoever shall work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death”. Numbers 15:32. “And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the Sabbath day…And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.”
5th. Commandment, Exodus 20:12 “Honour thy father and thy mother”. Old Testament punishment - Exodus 21:15-17 “And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death”. More punishment - Exodus 21:17 “And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death”.

7th. Commandment, Exodus 20:14 “Thou shalt not commit adultery”. Old Testament punishment - Leviticus 20:10 “And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death”

if we were to follow this now, Jesus would've had the woman caught in adultery stoned. the fact that he forgave her instead shows that Christians are not to live this way.

CONTEXT man.

 

[b&wpac4]

if we were to follow this now, Jesus would've had the woman caught in adultery stoned. the fact that he forgave her instead shows that Christians are not to live this way.

CONTEXT man.

Why was God's Law not perfect, in your estimation? If people had followed the Law perfectly, wouldn't it also have been a utopia?

 

[ebia]

Why was God's Law not perfect, in your estimation? If people had followed the Law perfectly, wouldn't it also have been a utopia?

You didn't ask me, but I would say that a finite law cannot be perfect.

 

[b&wpac4]

You didn't ask me, but I would say that a finite law cannot be perfect.

Yeah, but I think you'd agree that you have a slightly different point of view than most literalistic Christians. You and I share a lot of views, believe it or not.

 

[shinbits]

Why was God's Law not perfect, in your estimation? If people had followed the Law perfectly, wouldn't it also have been a utopia?

yes, you're right; if people had followed even the OT laws consistently, their would have been utopia.

the point of responding to that poster was to refute the fallacious notion that if a law is broken, OT punishment is what Christians are supposed to administer.

 

[b&wpac4]

the point of responding to that poster was to refute the fallacious notion that if a law is broken, OT punishment is what Christians are supposed to administer.

Even Orthodox Jews don't believe that.

 

[shinbits]

Even Orthodox Jews don't believe that.

true. but tanzano was too uniformed to prevent him from making that fallacious post.

 

[ebia]

uniformed?

 

[ebia]

Yeah, but I think you'd agree that you have a slightly different point of view than most literalistic Christians. You and I share a lot of views, believe it or not.

 

[b&wpac4]

uniformed?

 

[tanzanos]

yes, you're right; if people had followed even the OT laws consistently, their would have been utopia.

the point of responding to that poster was to refute the fallacious notion that if a law is broken, OT punishment is what Christians are supposed to administer.

Don't blame me; the following examples from the NT prove that Christians must adhere to OT punishments:

Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark 7:9


Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Matthew 15:4-7

Jesus says, “Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace on earth! No, rather a sword lf you love your father, mother, sister, brother, more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. “Matthew 10:34
“Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." Matthew 10:21

 

[Hooksta]

yes, you're right; if people had followed even the OT laws consistently, their would have been utopia.

the point of responding to that poster was to refute the fallacious notion that if a law is broken, OT punishment is what Christians are supposed to administer.

Am I "that" poster? The example I gave was in the "context" of the O.T. as you mentioned. I pointed out in the David/Bathsheba example the punishment administered by God for adultery was killing their baby. Since this would have been before Christ so it would be in context of OT law. God gave Moses the law and then God didn't follow it.

Fast forward years later and Jesus also breaks the law by forgiving the prostitute rather than having her stoned. I'm cool with him making the change but that would get us up to three variations on what to do with adulterers. Sorry but is it unreasonable to think God could get it right the first time?