Fullness of the faith??????????

[MamaZ]

How do we know the truth, according to scripture?

6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.



Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

Yes and we take all that we have read from the scriptures and we believe on them and do as the written word instructs us. The Apostles are not here with us.. We have not rejected what can be proven as teachings of the Apostles.. What we do reject are those whom claim other things as being truth when through the scripture we can see that some of these teachings are in great error.. Not lining up with the full counsel of the written events.

 

[MamaZ]

The early Christians. The Church. That is THEM.

You have a modern interpretation of scripture which is different from that of the early(and current) Church.

Actually what is being said that you quote is that we are not to reject the teachings of the Apostles that were sent out.. The Church is the body.. The full body being made up of every individual believer in Christ with just some aposltes, some pastor teachers,. You have yet to prove to me that the CC church today is actually the early church. To many addings and tradtions added to scripture for me to stand on what you say to be truth and nothing but the truth.. Only Scripture can be said to be truth and nothing but the truth..

 

[sunlover1]

I agree. But individuals don't usually give their lives unless they believe they are protecting the truth.

Oh HEAVENS no!
They believe with all of their hearts that they're protecting truth.

Do you think the early Christians who willingly gave their lives were sincere Christians?

Certainly they were. That or suicidal

If so, do you think they had been taught errors?

Killing yourself for your religion isnt an indication of truth or error.
I have no way to know what they were being taught, or if error
was creeping into their group.

I'm just curious as to how protestants deal with these martyrs when their words and beliefs sound very Catholic(or Orthodox)

Same as if someone gives their life for God and their beliefs sound very
unCatholic. If someone would give their life for Jesus rather than renounce
them, I believe that they will be greatly rewarded by God and honored
among the church.

 

[MamaZ]

So my understanding of the scripture is biased because I don't stand on mens understanding of the scripture as being the whole truth? Is this how I am biased?

 

[TraderJack]

Originally Posted by MamaZ

Great scripture now how does this scripture prove works saves a man?
​

This thread is about the FULLNESS of the faith - not the minimum requirments to be "saved". If you leave this out, then you don't have it all - you seem to like to leave this part out...

You seem to forget that the traditions that the church of the Romans claims comprise the "fullness of the gospel" ARE neccessary requirements for salvation.

[SIZE=+1]It is important to understand that, according to the Church of Rome, apart from an embracing of its dogmas there is no salvation. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]This is clearly seen from the teaching of Vatican I on the meaning of saving faith and the role of the church of the Romans in defining the doctrinal content of such faith. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Vatican I states that it is necessary for salvation that men and women not only believe all that is revealed in scripture but also everything which is defined and proposed by the church of the Romans as having been divinely revealed. To reject anything taught by the Roman Church is to reject saving faith and to forfeit justification and eternal life:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]

Further, all those things are to be believed with divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the Word of God, written or handed down, and which the Church, either by a solemn judgment, or by her ordinary and universal magisterium, proposes for belief as having been divinely revealed. And since, without faith, it is impossible to please God, and to attain to the fellowship of his children, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will any one obtain eternal life unless he shall have persevered in faith unto the end

[/SIZE]

Have you also forgotten that the church of the Romans dogmatically declared that the Greek church is not a part of the cheep of Christ?

UNAM SANCTAM (Promulgated November 18, 1302)

Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her,' and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3]. In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Eph 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed.
We venerate this Church as one, the Lord having said by the mouth of the prophet: 'Deliver, O God, my soul from the sword and my only one from the hand of the dog.' [Ps 21:20] He has prayed for his soul, that is for himself, heart and body; and this body, that is to say, the Church, He has called one because of the unity of the Spouse, of the faith, of the sacraments, and of the charity of the Church. This is the tunic of the Lord, the seamless tunic, which was not rent but which was cast by lot [Jn 19:23-24]. Therefore, of the one and only Church there is one body and one head, not two heads like a monster; that is, Christ and the Vicar of Christ, Peter and the successor of Peter, since the Lord speaking to Peter Himself said: 'Feed my sheep' [Jn 21:17], meaning, my sheep in general, not these, nor those in particular, whence we understand that He entrusted all to him [Peter]. Therefore, if the Greeks or others should say that they are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must confess not being the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in John 'there is one sheepfold and one shepherd.'

Medieval Sourcebook: Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, 1302

Is that part of the "fullness of the gospel"?
​

 

[chestertonrules]

Yes and we take all that we have read from the scriptures and we believe on them and do as the written word instructs us. The Apostles are not here with us.. We have not rejected what can be proven as teachings of the Apostles.. What we do reject are those whom claim other things as being truth when through the scripture we can see that some of these teachings are in great error.. Not lining up with the full counsel of the written events.

Do you accept these apostolic teachings?

"Since then these things are manifest to us, and we have looked into the depths of the divine knowledge, we ought to do in order all things which the Master commanded us to perform at appointed times. He commanded us to celebrate sacrifices and services, and that it should not be thoughtlessly or disorderly, but at fixed times and hours. He has Himself fixed by His supreme will the places and persons whom He desires for these celebrations, in order that all things may be done piously according to His good pleasure, and be acceptable to His will.
Source: St. Clement, bishop of Rome, 80 A.D., to the Corinthians


"Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered its Sacrifices."

Source: Letter to the Corinthians, [44,4]​

"Take care, then who belong to God and to Jesus Christ - they are with the bishop. And those who repent and come to the unity of the Church - they too shall be of God, and will be living according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If any man walk about with strange doctrine, he cannot lie down with the passion. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of His Blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons."

-Epistle to the Philadelphians from St. Ignatius, 3:2-4:1, 105 A.D.


​

"This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God's Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus."

"First Apology", St. Justin MartyrCh. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.













​

 

[TraderJack]

Originally Posted by MamaZ

How do we leave this out? We as the body of Christ are called to be servants.. These are the works He speaks of.. We are chosen to be conformed to the Image of Christ. Christ came not to be served but to serve. We are being conformed to His image. This shows us that those who are led by the Spirit of God are indeed the Children of God.. We do not do works to be recoginzed by God.. We do servant works because we have been recognized by God and now are born of His Spirit.. You can't put the cart before the horse and expect to go forward for the horse will pull you backwards..
​

You leave out part of the faith when you reject some of the teachings of the apostles.

In reality, the medieval inventions of the church of the Romans, which are claimed to be part of the deposit of faith have been proven to NOT be of Apostolic transmission, nor were transmitted by their disciples or the early church.

Why do you think the reformers rejected so much of the faith which they had been given?

Because they were tested and found to be false.

 

[TraderJack]

Do you accept these apostolic teachings?


"Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered its Sacrifices."

Source: Letter to the Corinthians, [44,4]​

That falsely assumes to be applied to the church of the Romans, exclusively, when in reality it does not.​

​

"Take care, then who belong to God and to Jesus Christ - they are with the bishop. And those who repent and come to the unity of the Church - they too shall be of God, and will be living according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If any man walk about with strange doctrine, he cannot lie down with the passion.

Yep, when these traditions/doctrines of the church of the Romans, claimed to comprise the "fullness of the faith" are tested, they are found to be "strange doctrines.

















[/quote]

 

[Rick Otto]

Because they were tested and found to be false.

That's why it's called The Reformation & not The Great Apostacy that if it were possible, could fool even the elect.

 

[Kristos]

I guess this is just a bash the Catholics thread...

bowing out.

 

[E.C.]

Well, this thread has gone about as far south as Her Majesty's Armed Forces during the Falkland War. Or Roald Amundsen who discovered the South Pole.

So long.

 

[Thekla]

I guess this is just a bash the Catholics thread...

bowing out.

its the "GT tradition"

 

[MamaZ]

Do you accept these apostolic teachings?

"Since then these things are manifest to us, and we have looked into the depths of the divine knowledge, we ought to do in order all things which the Master commanded us to perform at appointed times. He commanded us to celebrate sacrifices and services, and that it should not be thoughtlessly or disorderly, but at fixed times and hours. He has Himself fixed by His supreme will the places and persons whom He desires for these celebrations, in order that all things may be done piously according to His good pleasure, and be acceptable to His will.
Source: St. Clement, bishop of Rome, 80 A.D., to the Corinthians

Can you show me what these sacrafices and services are that He speaks of here? What celebrations are we to adhere to?

"Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered its Sacrifices."

Source: Letter to the Corinthians, [44,4]

Once again can you show me what sacrfices he is speaking of here?​

​

"Take care, then who belong to God and to Jesus Christ - they are with the bishop. And those who repent and come to the unity of the Church - they too shall be of God, and will be living according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If any man walk about with strange doctrine, he cannot lie down with the passion. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of His Blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons."

-Epistle to the Philadelphians from St. Ignatius, 3:2-4:1, 105 A.D.​

What does He mean they are with the bishop?
Where does Jesus tell us to repent and come to the unity of the Church? This is strange doctrine within itself. There was one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ and there was one sacrafice for all time of the shedding of His blood to which He offered Himself up to God on our behalf..

"This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God's Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus."

"First Apology", St. Justin MartyrCh. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.​

I fail to see some of the above mentioned written in the scriptures so once again here we stand with traditions instead of the written instructions of the Apostles.

 

[Rick Otto]

I guess this is just a bash the Catholics thread...

bowing out.

Please do. Anyone who can't see Protestants defending the faith is invited to follow.

 

[Rick Otto]

Well, this thread has gone about as far south as Her Majesty's Armed Forces during the Falkland War. Or Roald Amundsen who discovered the South Pole.

So long.

Goodbye. Thanks for not stickin' around & injecting hopelessness.

 

[chestertonrules]

Please do. Anyone who can't see Protestants defending the faith is invited to follow.

Which faith?

 

[MamaZ]

I have noticed that when we are accused of things and we defend the faith that all of a sudden we are bashing something. I really don't understand this actually.. They bash us constantly because we do not stick to traditions they hold dearly but yet we are accused of bashing?

 

[MamaZ]

So Chester How am I biased? Please answer my question or go back and edit your post. You accuse but yet give no proof to your accusation..

 

[chestertonrules]

I have noticed that when we are accused of things and we defend the faith that all of a sudden we are bashing something. I really don't understand this actually.. They bash us constantly because we do not stick to traditions they hold dearly but yet we are accused of bashing?

I don't think that point was directed at you. You are clearly trying to defend your position(and I know that isn't easy)

 

[chestertonrules]

So Chester How am I biased? Please answer my question or go back and edit your post. You accuse but yet give no proof to your accusation..

You read scripture through a Calvinist lens which make you unable to accept those passages which contradict your beliefs.

In addition, you adhere to the novel invention known as sola scriptura, which was never part of the teaching of the apostles or the Church.