Fullness of the faith??????????

[Trento]

AHHH the stench of religious relativity.

Trento the standard is set by God in His holy word and much of the bible is devoted to correcting false doctrine, MUCH of Christs teaching was corrective...All of Paul's epistles are as well. Paul consistently named those leading others astray...He even corrected Peter, Acts 17: 17 and 23 show Paul disputing doctrine on a daily basis.
In order to contend for the faith we must do the same.

Christ is the center, the pure perfect center.

He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Titus 1:
15 To the pure all things are pure, but to the corrupt and unbelieving nothing is pure ; their very minds and consciences are corrupted.
16 They profess to know God (e.g. "Christ alone"), but they deny him by their deeds;

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Titus 1:
15 To the pure all things are pure, but to the corrupt and unbelieving nothing is pure ; their very minds and consciences are corrupted.
16 They profess to know God (e.g. "Christ alone"), but they deny him by their deeds;

Hi Trento. Most of us here are aware of what the Bible says

James 5:6 Ye condemn, ye murder/efoneusate <5407> (5656) the Righteous-One, not He is resisting to Ye.

Revelation 9:21 And not they reform/repent out of the Murders/fonwn <5408> of them, nor out from their sorceries/far-makeiwn <5331>

 

[Ame4]

Originally Posted by simonthezealot

AHHH the stench of religious relativity.

Trento the standard is set by God in His holy word and much of the bible is devoted to correcting false doctrine, MUCH of Christs teaching was corrective...All of Paul's epistles are as well. Paul consistently named those leading others astray...He even corrected Peter, Acts 17: 17 and 23 show Paul disputing doctrine on a daily basis.
In order to contend for the faith we must do the same.

Christ is the center, the pure perfect center.

He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
​

Titus 1:
15 To the pure all things are pure, but to the corrupt and unbelieving nothing is pure ; their very minds and consciences are corrupted.
16 They profess to know God (e.g. "Christ alone"), but they deny him by their deeds;

Trento

 

[simonthezealot]

Titus 1:
15 To the pure all things are pure, but to the corrupt and unbelieving nothing is pure ; their very minds and consciences are corrupted.
16 They profess to know God (e.g. "Christ alone"), but they deny him by their deeds;

Hilarious, thanks for making my point...Look at the 2 verses prior to what you put down...

13For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith,
14 not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.

I would NOT be adding to the word of God like you have here..to know God (e.g. "Christ alone")
Thats treading on mighty thin ice.

 

[Ame4]

Hilarious, thanks for making my point...Look at the 2 verses prior to what you put down...

13For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith,
14 not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.

Who are you, not you specifically but any man, to decide what are the commandments of men that turn away from the truth.

Truth is not relative. There is only one truth. Only one.
Protestants are led by the Holy Spirit into all truth through Scripture. I know for that is what I said.
If so there would be no contradtions in truth.

Protestism is full of contradtions in matters of truth.

 

[simonthezealot]

Who are you, not you specifically but any man, to decide what are the commandments of men that turn away from the truth.

Truth is not relative. There is only one truth. Only one.
Protestants are led by the Holy Spirit into all truth through Scripture. I know for that is what I said.
If so there would be no contradtions in truth.

Protestism is full of contradtions in matters of truth.

Its pretty simple determining what commands of men are, one need only read Isa 19, Mt 15 and MK 7 to see that laws and traditions that are un-scriptural were railed on by both the prophet and Jesus the Christ. Because reformers have some differences in interpretation does NOT make them contradictory to truth only faced with interpretive challenges, there is only one truth that is true...When it's necessary for one to achieve truth the HS will provide.

 

[Ame4]

Its pretty simple determining what commands of men are, one need only read Isa 19, Mt 15 and MK 7 to see that laws and traditions that are un-scriptural were railed on by both the prophet and Jesus the Christ. Because reformers have some differences in interpretation does NOT make them contradictory to truth only faced with interpretive challenges, there is only one truth that is true...When it's necessary for one to achieve truth the HS will provide.

I have had many protestant study bibles, some parts they agree, many they don't.
why?
I have studied Scripture and my pastor and others do not agree on all things.
We would all agree 100000000000000 percent if He guided us that way only.

my two cents

 

[Trento]

Its pretty simple determining what commands of men are, one need only read Isa 19, Mt 15 and MK 7 to see that laws and traditions that are un-scriptural were railed on by both the prophet and Jesus the Christ. Because reformers have some differences in interpretation does NOT make them contradictory to truth only faced with interpretive challenges, there is only one truth that is true...When it's necessary for one to achieve truth the HS will provide.

I'm very optimistic about reason and the power of logic and analysis for the purpose of discerning truth, yes, but at the same time I am very pessimistic about human ability or willingness to understand this logic or to be willing to accept the consequences of it where it concerns some change they would have to make in their life as a result.The Bible, the Fathers, the Church, and Tradition condemn such private judgment and interpretation, but that's not good enough for you;you have to retain it because the alternatives are Catholicism or Orthodoxy, and you don't like those systems.
Private judgment is placing oneself as final authority over against Church
and SCRIPTURE, (usually pretentiously concealed as appeals to the latter).
So to a large degree, whether our arguments be short or long will avail nothing to an unwilling mind. Any excuse is good enough when you are looking for one. And as with so many people in general -- are looking for an excuse rather than truth.

Private judgment is placing oneself (at least theoretically and potentially) in a position of final authority over against Church and Tradition if needs be, usually appealing to one's own (ultimately subjective and non-binding) interpretation of the Bible in so doing.
​

If it is true that Catholicism reduces to Sola Ecclesia, then it is equally true that Protestantism reduces to Sola Anthropos (Man Alone). The former is taught in Scripture (1Tim 3:15), the latter is condemned (Numbers 16, Jude 1:11).
making oneself the ultimate arbiter of truth" is the unavoidable consequence of private judgment rather than its definition.

 

[sunlover1]

Well lets call things what they are, some of these traditions brought forth are at odds with scripture...A prime example in the roman church is having the assumption feast day as an obligatory service with mortal sin put upon the non-presciber.

Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands of God. Matt:15:9 also Isa 29:13

I was thinking earlier that purgatory looked pretty good.
(My relative has been on life support for a week)

Who are you, not you specifically but any man, to decide what are the commandments of men that turn away from the truth.

Sons of the most High God.

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Truth is not relative. There is only one truth. Only one.

Protestants are led by the Holy Spirit into all truth through Scripture.

ALL Men are led into truth by God.
Is there another avenue?

He even calls Himself "the Truth"
I am the way, the truth, and the life

If so there would be no contradtions in truth.

[/QUOTE]
Actually, we could all read the same algebra book
and understand it differently.

Or we could all read the ECF and come away with
different understandings as have some sects done.

Tomato
Tomahto

Protestism is full of contradtions in matters of truth

Those idiot protestants

John 7:47

47 &#8220;Have you been led astray, too?&#8221; the Pharisees mocked.
48 &#8220;Is there a single one of us rulers or Pharisees who believes in him?
49 This foolish crowd follows him, but they are ignorant of the law.
God&#8217;s curse is on them!&#8221;
50 Then Nicodemus, the leader who had met with Jesus earlier, spoke up.
51 &#8220;Is it legal to convict a man before he is given a hearing?&#8221; he asked.
52 They replied, &#8220;Are you from Galilee, too?
Search the Scriptures and see for yourself&#8212;no prophet ever comes&#65279;*&#65279; from Galilee!&#8221;​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Protestism is full of contradtions in matters of truth

Those idiot protestants

I just had a great idea. Why don't we just refer to Muslims and Jews as "Protestants"?

​

 

[Ame4]

Actually, we could all read the same algebra book
and understand it differently.

Or we could all read the ECF and come away with
different understandings as have some sects done.

Tomato
Tomahto

There is no tomato, tomahto, only One Truth in anything especially doctrine, not talking about the ECF but Scripture.
There would not be any differences at all.

Protestism is full of contradtions in matters of truth

Those idiot protestants

John 7:47

47 “Have you been led astray, too?” the Pharisees mocked.
48 “Is there a single one of us rulers or Pharisees who believes in him?
49 This foolish crowd follows him, but they are ignorant of the law.
God’s curse is on them!”
50 Then Nicodemus, the leader who had met with Jesus earlier, spoke up.
51 “Is it legal to convict a man before he is given a hearing?” he asked.
52 They replied, “Are you from Galilee, too? ​

Search the Scriptures and see for yourself—no prophet ever comes&#65279;*&#65279; from Galilee!”​

[/quote]
I would never say that, In fact I was one just a bit ago
No idiots.

 

[Ame4]

I just had a great idea. Why don't we just refer to Muslims and Jews as "Protestants"?

​

I don't know, but they do protest also.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I have had many protestant study bibles, some parts they agree, many they don't.
why?
I have studied Scripture and my pastor and others do not agree on all things.
We would all agree 100000000000000 percent if He guided us that way only.

my two cents

To this day for almost 40 years, I never met a Christian who agrees with my beliefs 100% and I also have not met a Christian who I agree with their beliefs 100%. Including my own wife, my parents and even my Christian mentor.

I have been a Baptist for the first 15 years of my life and during those years, I went to a Catholic School for 7 years. In my adult life, I attended Anabaptist for many, many years. During those years, I followed Reformed theologies which lead me to Presbyterian Church in America before attending Lutheran (LCMS). One reason (of many) is that I found that I agree with Lutheran's doctrines than I realized. I have studied various theologians from different backgrounds. Some are Reformed theologians (i.e. Calvinism) and some are not reformed (i.e. Arminianism). No Priests, Pastors, Theologians or anyone with similar titles are NOT perfect. They were all sinners and had their share of mistakes. I can see why there are "divisions" within Christianity. Most Christian denominations and movements share common beliefs in the major aspects of the Christian faith, while differing in many secondary doctrines. Christians believe what the Bible teaches in context which are the basics of what Christians believe and unite on.

Grace provides a belief and a conviction that changes your life, changes the way you are, it affects your character and your will. I will always remember C.S. Lewis' quote: "You never know how much you really believe anything until truth or falsehood becomes a matter of life and death to you." It is important to understand that our hearts are the state of our "flesh". We can learn from others who believe such doctrines and examine our own. We are to allow the Holy Spirit to lead us and convict us the truth. Often flesh's desires gets in the way of spirit-lead truth.

 

[Ame4]

To this day for almost 40 years, I never met a Christian who agrees with my beliefs 100% and I also have not met a Christian who I agree with their beliefs 100%. Including my own wife, my parents and even my Christian mentor.

I have been a Baptist for the first 15 years of my life and during those years, I went to a Catholic School for 7 years. In my adult life, I attended Anabaptist for many, many years. During those years, I followed Reformed theologies which lead me to Presbyterian Church in America before attending Lutheran (LCMS). One reason (of many) is that I found that I agree with Lutheran's doctrines than I realized. I have studied various theologians from different backgrounds. Some are Reformed theologians (i.e. Calvinism) and some are not reformed (i.e. Arminianism). No Priests, Pastors, Theologians or anyone with similar titles are NOT perfect. They were all sinners and had their share of mistakes. I can see why there are "divisions" within Christianity. Most Christian denominations and movements share common beliefs in the major aspects of the Christian faith, while differing in many secondary doctrines. Christians believe what the Bible teaches in context which are the basics of what Christians believe and unite on.

Grace provides a belief and a conviction that changes your life, changes the way you are, it affects your character and your will. I will always remember C.S. Lewis' quote: "You never know how much you really believe anything until truth or falsehood becomes a matter of life and death to you." It is important to understand that our hearts are the state of our "flesh". We can learn from others who believe such doctrines and examine our own. We are to allow the Holy Spirit to lead us and convict us the truth. Often flesh's desires gets in the way of spirit-lead truth.

I do thank you Jim for your openess. That does not explain we are all not on the same page in every single way, since the Holy Spirit is to guide us into all truth.
All not some or most.

I do know we are not perfect, but Scripture says we are guided into all truth. No mention of any conditions that I have seen. Except we are faithful Christians.
We see it here in the GT ppl saying they have the truth only because of the Holy Spirit. Yet we disagree on things.

 

[sunlover1]

There is no tomato, tomahto, only One Truth in anything especially doctrine, not talking about the ECF but Scripture.
There would not be any differences at all.

Tomato tomahto was in reference to which book one reads.
You read Scripture alone, you get different interpretations.
You read EFC, you still get different interpretations.

​

[/quote]
I would never say that, In fact I was one just a bit ago
No idiots. [/quote]
So what exactly were you saying if not that they should
do something other than study Scripture to find truth?

 

[sunlover1]

I do thank you Jim for your openess. That does not explain we are all not on the same page in every single way, since the Holy Spirit is to guide us into all truth.
All not some or most.

Some, not all.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I do thank you Jim for your openess. That does not explain we are all not on the same page in every single way, since the Holy Spirit is to guide us into all truth.
All not some or most.

I do know we are not perfect, but Scripture says we are guided into all truth. No mention of any conditions that I have seen. Except we are faithful Christians.
We see it here in the GT ppl saying they have the truth only because of the Holy Spirit. Yet we disagree on things.

Just because men are forgiven sinners, they are NOT perfect and therefore their interpretations of the Scriptures will never be perfect. Close but not perfect. We have to remember that its not the scriptures that are corrupted. Its a man's heart that is corrupted, even forgiven sinners (Christians). There are so many who will proclaim to be a Christian but only few are really Christians. There are millions of professing Christians who "think" they have been justified, who think their sins are forgiven and that they are on their way to heaven, who show no evidence of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit in their lives. Many Christians are unthinkably horrified when a real sinner is suddenly discovered among the righteous. So we remain alone with our sin, living in lies and hypocrisy.

Thinking theologically is a tough thing to do. There are times that I deal with my own "theological bias". I was victimized because I grew up in a certain theological system and I become indoctrinated by what I have learned over the years that I have struggled by defending what I have learned and can't seem to let go of it.

Discernment encouraged me to examine my own beliefs. When I was younger, I believed in certain doctrines but now that I am spiritually matured, I have learned the proper doctrines through many sources. When I was researching LCMS's website about Holy Scriptures, I saw what I like "the necessity and importance of praying for the Holy Spirit's guidance to properly interpret Scripture as we grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ".

I am learning every day to be careful how I read and need to look from doctrinal perspective rather than our own educational satisfaction. To be heavenly-minded we must think heavenly thoughts. We ourselves must keep in mind, and those we who are disciples, that truth is greater than our understanding of it.

 

[TraderJack]

868 The Church is catholic: she proclaims the fullness of the faith. She bears in herself and administers the totality of the means of salvation. She is sent out to all peoples. She speaks to all men. She encompasses all times. She is "missionary of her very nature" (AG 2).

MY QUESTIONS...............

Tell us then, what else must be known for salvation that is not in the Scriptures? Be specific please.

What is there to be known of Christ which must be known for salvation that is not contained in the Scriptures?

Jude

3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

The Apostolic Witness, carried on by the early church, is that the faith preached by the Apostles was given in it's fullness to the very first generation of Christians, which was recorded and preserved, in it's fullness in the Scriptures.

Yep, we have a religion claiming that there are traditions, which were never taught by the Apostles, nor the first Christians, as evidenced by the complete absence of Apostolic and Patristic witness, such as:

1. Roman papal supremacy

2. Roman papal infallibility

3. Auricular confession and doing penance to atone for sins committed after
water baptism

4. The Marian dogmas

5. Transubstantiation

6. And that the list above, and more, must be believed as a condition for
salvation

1 Corinthians 2

Christ Crucified

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony[a] of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

 

[simonthezealot]

Jude

3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

The Apostolic Witness, carried on by the early church, is that the faith preached by the Apostles was given in it's fullness to the very first generation of Christians, which was recorded and preserved, in it's fullness in the Scriptures.

Yep, we have a religion claiming that there are traditions, which were never taught by the Apostles, nor the first Christians, as evidenced by the complete absence of Apostolic and Patristic witness, such as:

1. Roman papal supremacy

2. Roman papal infallibility

3. Auricular confession and doing penance to atone for sins committed after
water baptism

4. The Marian dogmas

5. Transubstantiation

6. And that the list above, and more, must be believed as a condition for
salvation

Hello my brother, i read your truth here compared to the cut and paste lament of trento against those of us whom seek Christ alone.
The contrast of light and dark is apparent, isn't it?
BTW it was a thread of yours that inspired this thread...Glad to see you here.

 

[TraderJack]

Hello my brother, i read your truth here compared to the cut and paste lament of trento against those of us whom seek Christ alone.

The cut and paste routine employed by the RC illusionists is smoke and mirrors, whereby not only is Scripture perverted by back engineering the medieval inventions of the church of the Romans into it, but also back engineering those later inventions into the Apostolic and Patristic witness where they do not exist.

However the Elect are not deceived.

The contrast of light and dark is apparent, isn't it?

Indeed it is, when God gives eyes to see.

BTW it was a thread of yours that inspired this thread...

Careful, that could bring trouble. It seems the hyper-politically correct can only apply their standards to others and not themselves.

Glad to see you here.

Thanks, the truth goes forward, in spite of those here and elsewhere who try to suppress it under a false concept of "peace" and "unity".