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[Archer93]

To b%wpac4,
But I dont hold it as a criteria, the criteria I hold is the sex of the couple. Try and form your own argument rather than telling me what you think mine should be. What we are discussing is couples in union, I can see a same sex couple cant be compared with a male/female one because they cant reproduce. You, unable to acknowledge the difference instead try to argue about fertility, thats your argument not mine and one I believe is a deception.

But the only difference between same sex couples and opposite sex couples that you have cited is the ability to reproduce. Many opposite sex couples can't reproduce. They are not treated differently. Why should same-sex couples be the exception to the rule?

Oh, and a reminder of my earlier question- was there procreation before the Fall?

 

[LightHorseman]

Let me walk though this logically:

Why do you consider homosexual couples as being unable to marry? They are dysfunctional because they cannot reproduce.

Do you want fertility to be a criteria for marriage? No, it shouldn't be.

Then do you back off your first argument, that the reason they cannot marry is due to not being able to reproduce? They are dysfunctional because they cannot reproduce.

So fertility is a criteria for marriage? No, it shouldn't be.

Then why do you hold homosexual couples to that standard but not heterosexual couples? They are dysfunctional because they cannot reproduce.


Wash, rinse, repeat.

Its almost like, for literalists, many of them seem to do it, they can't remember from one post to the next. Many of them really seem to act as though each post is to be made in an utter vacuum, that once you hit the post button, nothing said in that post has any bearing on anything they further have to say

 

[b&wpac4]

Firends, same sex couples cant reproduce so there is no point in arguing. You may think fertilty as a criteria undermines this argument but I would say it cant.

Great, we know that by themselves they can't.

Why can't they be afforded the right to live the life they choose for themselves in peace without interference and why can't they be afforded the exact same rights as any other couple?

 

[brightmorningstar]

To b&wpac4

Great, we know that by themselves they can't.

yes we know that when fertile they cant reproduce by themselves and we know that when fertile male/female can.

Why can't they be afforded the right to live the life they choose for themselves in peace without interference and why can't they be afforded the exact same rights as any other couple?

Ok why should they be afforded the same rights if they aren’t the same?

 

[sidhe]

Its almost like, for literalists, many of them seem to do it, they can't remember from one post to the next. Many of them really seem to act as though each post is to be made in an utter vacuum, that once you hit the post button, nothing said in that post has any bearing on anything they further have to say

Well, think of it this way:

They're willing to dismiss contradictions as nonexistent daily. Why would making a totally illogical and internally inconsistent argument bother them?

 

[b&wpac4]

Ok why should they be afforded the same rights if they aren’t the same?

Do we hold all of our standards for granting rights that people be exactly the same as everybody else? We grant all religions the same basic rights in the US, and almost none of them are the same.

 

[Andreusz]

To b&wpac4
My previous post should be sufficient but nonetheless.

I consider same sex couples cannot be treated as marriage as they are not the same and cannot fulfil the same function as male/female.

What function can't they fulfil that male/female couples can? The only such function is reproduction. Yet you go on to say that 'fertility should not be a consideration in deciding whether or not a couple can marry'. You are contradicting yourself.

 

[LightHorseman]

Ok why should they be afforded the same rights if they aren’t the same?

Because they ARE the same in every way that matters, i.e. loving, committed, find happiness in completion with each other...

 

[brightmorningstar]

To b&wpac4

Do we hold all of our standards for granting rights that people be exactly the same as everybody else?

That simply doesn’t address the question. Men cant use womens’ toilets. And we are talking about what couples can do and be considered as.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Andreusz,

What function can't they fulfil that male/female couples can? The only such function is reproduction. Yet you goon to say that 'fertility should not be a consideration in decising whether or not a couple can marry'. You are contradicting yourself.

No I am saying same sex couples cant marry as the reason they cant reproduce is they are same sex couples. Fertility would also exlcud them if that was my criteria.

 

[b&wpac4]

That simply doesn’t address the question. Men cant use womens’ toilets. And we are talking about what couples can do and be considered as.

You have a religious view based on your understanding that certain acts are wrong. Other people have other views based on their understanding. Why does yours get to trump theirs in a free society?

 

[LightHorseman]

To b&wpac4
That simply doesn’t address the question. Men cant use womens’ toilets. And we are talking about what couples can do and be considered as.

For purely cultural reasons. There is no underlying biological or cultural reason that men can't use women's toilets.

I'm also utterly unaware of anything in any teaching about marriage, either civil, religious or secular, regarding toilet use.

 

[Andreusz]

To Andreusz,
No I am saying same sex couples cant marry as the reason they cant reproduce is they are same sex couples. Fertility would also exlcud them if that was my criteria. [/size][/font]

I have great difficulty understanding what you are trying to say. Would the following be an acceptable representation of your point of view?

"Same-sex couples should not be allowed to marry, because they cannot reproduce, and their inability to reproduce comes about because they are of the same sex.
Opposite-sex couples where one or both members are infertile may, howwever, marry, even though they cannot reproduce, because their inability to reproduce is not caused by their sex."

 

[b&wpac4]

I have great difficulty understanding what you are trying to say. Would the following be an acceptable representation of your point of view?

"Same-sex couples should not be allowed to marry, because they cannot reproduce, and their inability to reproduce comes about because they are of the same sex.
Opposite-sex couples where one or both members are infertile may, howwever, marry, even though they cannot reproduce, because their inability to reproduce is not caused by their sex."

you forgot to add "but being able to reproduce is not a criteria for marriage"

 

[Andreusz]

^ Yes. Thank you.

 

[Psudopod]

Psudopod,

It's ruled out by biology for the infertile and post menopausal couples too. It's ruled out by nature for child free couples.
But I am applying it to all people, and besides that’s your argument, my argument is its not about fertility as the infertility of a male/female couple is malfunction, whereas with a same sex couple its dysfunction. As opposed to same sex couples male/female can reproduce.
So if you wan to propose infertile couples should not be allowed to be married do so. ... but that would of course include all same sex couples.

Let’s take this slowly shall we? Please answer the questions below:

Do the following reproduce unaided?
Same sex couples yes/no
infertile couples yes/no
child-free couples yes/no
post menopausal couples yes/no

 

[Fenny the Fox]

Could someone clarify what you mean by "child-free couples"? please.

Maybe I have just overlooked it, but it seems like you are making the assumption that 'no child = inable to reproduce'.

 

[Psudopod]

Sorry, by child free I mean those who chose not to have children. Trying to make a distinction between those who are unable to and those who do not want to. Of course, there is some overlap between the two.

 

[BigBadWlf]

You have a religious view based on your understanding that certain acts are wrong. Other people have other views based on their understanding. Why does yours get to trump theirs in a free society?

Excelant question

 

[BigBadWlf]

To b&wpac4
That simply doesn’t address the question. Men cant use womens’ toilets. And we are talking about what couples can do and be considered as.

I was unaware that toilets had a gender feature.

I will ask my wife which of our toilets were for women and which were for men (I hope we have one of each at the house…would hate to be sending her to the local gas station to use thier female only toilet all the time