Fullness of the faith??????????

[simonthezealot]

868 The Church is catholic: she proclaims the fullness of the faith. She bears in herself and administers the totality of the means of salvation. She is sent out to all peoples. She speaks to all men. She encompasses all times. She is "missionary of her very nature" (AG 2).

MY QUESTIONS...............

Tell us then, what else must be known for salvation that is not in the Scriptures? Be specific please.

What is there to be known of Christ which must be known for salvation that is not contained in the Scriptures?

 

[chestertonrules]

868 The Church is catholic: she proclaims the fullness of the faith. She bears in herself and administers the totality of the means of salvation. She is sent out to all peoples. She speaks to all men. She encompasses all times. She is "missionary of her very nature" (AG 2).

MY QUESTIONS...............

Tell us then, what else must be known for salvation that is not in the Scriptures? Be specific please.

What is there to be known of Christ which must be known for salvation that is not contained in the Scriptures?

It is not a matter of just knowing, it is also vital to understand and do what is required of Christians. The Church's role is to help us follow Jesus as he intended.

We can't do this if we don't know what he intended, and we can't do what he intended without his grace which can be conveyed through his Church.

 

[cobweb]

I would also like to point out that one can believe that their Church contains the fullness of the Faith without believing that everyone outside of it will be condemned (or even that all within it will be saved).

God can save whoever He wants to. It is one of the perks of being omnipotent.

 

[E.C.]

Two questions:

1) What does this Roman Catholic notion have to do with the salvation of those outside of the Roman Catholic Church?

2) If this is a question specifically about a Roman Catholic idear, than why are you clogging up GT and not posting in either Denomination Specific or OBOB?

 

[Kristos]

868 The Church is catholic: she proclaims the fullness of the faith. She bears in herself and administers the totality of the means of salvation. She is sent out to all peoples. She speaks to all men. She encompasses all times. She is "missionary of her very nature" (AG 2).

MY QUESTIONS...............

Tell us then, what else must be known for salvation that is not in the Scriptures? Be specific please.

What is there to be known of Christ which must be known for salvation that is not contained in the Scriptures?

Nothing that I know of

Oddly, it's all in the OT. So why didn't they get it?

 

[simonthezealot]

It is not a matter of just knowing, it is also vital to understand and do what is required of Christians. The Church's role is to help us follow Jesus as he intended.

We can't do this if we don't know what he intended, and we can't do what he intended without his grace which can be conveyed through his Church.

Knowing would be a start, please be specific.

 

[tz620q]

868 The Church is catholic: she proclaims the fullness of the faith. She bears in herself and administers the totality of the means of salvation. She is sent out to all peoples. She speaks to all men. She encompasses all times. She is "missionary of her very nature" (AG 2).

MY QUESTIONS...............

Tell us then, what else must be known for salvation that is not in the Scriptures? Be specific please.

What is there to be known of Christ which must be known for salvation that is not contained in the Scriptures?

CCC 868 is part of a summary of that whole chapter. A fuller explanation is in CCC 830:

The word "catholic" means "universal," in the sense of "according to the totality" or "in keeping with the whole." The Church is catholic in a double sense:

First, the Church is catholic because Christ is present in her. "Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church." In her subsists the fullness of Christ's body united with its head; this implies that she receives from him "the fullness of the means of salvation" which he has willed: correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life, and ordained ministry in apostolic succession. The Church was, in this fundamental sense, catholic on the day of Pentecost and will always be so until the day of the Parousia.

So in my thinking, Jesus Christ was the fullness of the faith (as opposed to possessing). Some of this he taught to his apostles and disciples. These then possessed the fullness of the faith as it had been taught them. Some of that was written down in Scriptures. Within this thought, there is no distinction between Scriptures and the Apostolic teachings. It was only when some wanted to rebel against the Church that Scripture was forced out of its natural environment and people started trying to balance on a one-legged stool.

Ephesians 1:18
May the eyes of (your) hearts be enlightened, that you may know what is the hope that belongs to his call, what are the riches of glory in his inheritance among the holy ones, and what is the surpassing greatness of his power for us who believe, in accord with the exercise of his great might, which he worked in Christ, raising him from the dead and seating him at his right hand in the heavens, far above every principality, authority, power, and dominion, and every name that is named not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things beneath his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way.

 

[simonthezealot]

Two questions:

1) What does this Roman Catholic notion have to do with the salvation of those outside of the Roman Catholic Church?

2) If this is a question specifically about a Roman Catholic idear, than why are you clogging up GT and not posting in either Denomination Specific or OBOB?

it's an issue of understanding what is necessary and where to go for what is necessary for salvation...I oft hear catholics around here throwing about the term "because you fail to have the fullness of faith"

I wish to flush it out further.

 

[simonthezealot]

So in my thinking, Jesus Christ was the fullness of the faith (as opposed to possessing). Some of this he taught to his apostles and disciples. These then possessed the fullness of the faith as it had been taught them. Some of that was written down in Scriptures. Within this thought, there is no distinction between Scriptures and the Apostolic teachings. It was only when some wanted to rebel against the Church that Scripture was forced out of its natural environment and people started trying to balance on a one-legged stool.

Hi TZ long time! hope things are well, are you back in the states again?

What part of the fullness is missed in scripture, and how can we be assured they had it right, (those that passed it along verbally?)

 

[JacksLadder]

Hi TZ long time! hope things are well, are you back in the states again?

What part of the fullness is missed in scripture, and how can we be assured they had it right, (those that passed it along verbally?)

A fullness would be a functioning Christian community working to practice and spread the gospel probably.

 

[Ame4]

Ephesians 1:18
May the eyes of (your) hearts be enlightened, that you may know what is the hope that belongs to his call, what are the riches of glory in his inheritance among the holy ones, and what is the surpassing greatness of his power for us who believe, in accord with the exercise of his great might, which he worked in Christ, raising him from the dead and seating him at his right hand in the heavens, far above every principality, authority, power, and dominion, and every name that is named not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things beneath his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way.

You provide the scripture that describes what the church is.
It is the body of Christ. All christians make up His Body. IOW all christians make up the church.

Not a single denomination.

 

[Trento]

MY QUESTIONS...............

Tell us then, what else must be known for salvation that is not in the Scriptures? Be specific please.

What is there to be known of Christ which must be known for salvation that is not contained in the Scriptures?

Nowhere does the Bible teach what amount or what extent of Revelation was committed to Scripture, so you cannot say all the information necessary for salvation was committed wholly unto writing.
The means of Revelation have ceased, yet the Bible nowhere teaches former means like Oral Tradition have ceased, much less Revelation itself. It is true that Divine Revelation has ceased, but that is a Tradition itself, not a teaching from Scripture.
Nowhere does the Bible list what books belong in Scripture; in fact the answer to that question depends first and foremost on Tradition to answer.
The Scriptures nowhere teache that those things necessary for salvation are clearly taught somewhere in Scripture, much less that the unlearned could find and grasp them. Further, the very doctrines which are deemed "necessary" are never laid out in Scripture, so what is "necessary" ultimately depends on each individual and thus purely subjective.
Nowhere does the Bible say it is the supreme judge of all doctrinal controversies. Nor does the Bible say that decrees of councils and other such authorities are subordinate to Scripture. In fact, it would be illogical to say Scripture is the supreme judge over the Church authorities because the Church is what interprets the Scripture.

 

[Rick Otto]

868 The Church is catholic: she proclaims the fullness of the faith. She bears in herself and administers the totality of the means of salvation. She is sent out to all peoples. She speaks to all men. She encompasses all times. She is "missionary of her very nature" (AG 2).

MY QUESTIONS...............

Tell us then, what else must be known for salvation that is not in the Scriptures? Be specific please.

What is there to be known of Christ which must be known for salvation that is not contained in the Scriptures?

Just He, Himself.

 

[simonthezealot]

Just He, Himself.

TRUE story!

 

[simonthezealot]

In fact, it would be illogical to say Scripture is the supreme judge over the Church authorities because the Church is what interprets the Scripture.

Rome tells me that I cannot "fully know Christ" apart from it, which is exactly what the Judaizers, Gnostics, Montanists, Docetists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Modalists, Arians and every other heretical cult says. Why should i believe the Romanist interpretations, are the correct ones that will lead me to this so called "fullness of faith"?

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Trento;Nowhere does the Bible teach what amount or what extent of Revelation was committed to Scripture, so you cannot say all the information necessary for salvation was committed wholly unto writing.

You can & should say it because it is said what amount & what extent of Revelation was committed to Scripture right here:

2Ti 3:15 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ JesusAll scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The means of Revelation have ceased,

As tradition marches on...

yet the Bible nowhere teaches former means like Oral Tradition have ceased, much less Revelation itself.

If "the means" have ceased, "the former means" also being 'means', have ceased. You're tripping over you're own sophistications.

It is true that Divine Revelation has ceased, but that is a Tradition itself, not a teaching from Scripture.
Nowhere does the Bible list what books belong in Scripture; in fact the answer to that question depends first and foremost on Tradition to answer.

No, it requires FAITH first & foremost. Faith in God, not in the Church or in its traditions or Traditions.

The Scriptures nowhere teache that those things necessary for salvation are clearly taught somewhere in Scripture,

Repeating it doesn't make it true, Trento.

much less that the unlearned could find and grasp them.

Much less does any protestant claim any gnostic patter. Study scripture, not Tradition to show yourself approved.

Further, the very doctrines which are deemed "necessary" are never laid out in Scripture, so what is "necessary" ultimately depends on each individual and thus purely subjective.

I've never seen anyone go so far in denying what Timothy plainly stated.

Nowhere does the Bible say it is the supreme judge of all doctrinal controversies.

Truly pitiful, this level of denial.

In fact, it would be illogical to say Scripture is the supreme judge over the Church authorities because the Church is what interprets the Scripture.

Heaven forbid Church authorities be accountable to scripture. No, Rome wants all to accountable to Rome.

 

[E.C.]

it's an issue of understanding what is necessary and where to go for what is necessary for salvation...I oft hear catholics around here throwing about the term "because you fail to have the fullness of faith"

I wish to flush it out further.

So... you are searching for a definition of the "fullness of faith"?

If you are saying that the Roman Catholic definition of the "fullness of faith" is 'necessary for salvation', than I'm beginning to wonder why you are not Roman Catholic...
Hopefully that is just a misunderstanding on my part...

 

[simonthezealot]

So... you are searching for a definition of the "fullness of faith"?

If you are saying that the Roman Catholic definition of the "fullness of faith" is 'necessary for salvation', than I'm beginning to wonder why you are not Roman Catholic...
Hopefully that is just a misunderstanding on my part...

It is your misunderstanding!

Point is i am told by many Romans that i am outside the FofF yet i'm never told what it is, accordin' to them

 

[Rick Otto]

I think it is a relative term in one sense. Like "free" and "all", it has to have context to be more than an ambiguous expression of an ideal reality.

 

[chestertonrules]

It is your misunderstanding!

Point is i am told by many Romans that i am outside the FofF yet i'm never told what it is, accordin' to them

You are not in full communion with the Church that was given the promises of Jesus. You are still part of the Catholic Church even if you don't care to admit it.

When two doctrines contradict, one or both must be wrong.

Either all Churches contain errors or all but one contains errors. There are no other options.