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Dwarfism and ethics

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Jane_the_Bane

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But what about everything else we let the rich do which already increases the divide as is, like being able to go to great colleges? I was able to get into a good one, but I would not have been able to afford out of state.
Which is why more sensible countries provide a free college education for all who are smart enough to qualify.
The United States are a seething heap of social injustice.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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To the OP:

Eugenics are an abomination (except for the natural process of selecting mates that appeal to us), and we've already been through a dark chapter in history when people who were deemed genetically unfit were either killed or sterilized. And I'm not merely talking about Nazi Germany, either. The US have such a stain on their history, too. Google it if you do not believe me.
 
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peadar1987

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Nothing I can say in response that J_T_B hasn't already said. I don't think the rich should be entitled to better education or health care than the poor. This just leads to social problems on a huge scale. Ever wonder why there aren't large gangs of crack dealers wandering the ghettos of Stockholm and Rekjavik?
 
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Nathan45

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Nothing I can say in response that J_T_B hasn't already said. I don't think the rich should be entitled to better education or health care than the poor. This just leads to social problems on a huge scale. Ever wonder why there aren't large gangs of crack dealers wandering the ghettos of Stockholm and Rekjavik?

As crack is rather expensive, It pains me to think of the poor huddled masses in "Stockholm and Rekjavik" who are so destitute as to not even be able to afford their weekly fix of cocaine. /snark

Anyway, I just googled: Muslim riots stockholm. Shocking, I got some hits. You guys seem to have your own problems.

....

in all seriousness, it's really apparent to me that if I ever left the U.S. I'd suddenly discover I'm actually a right-winger.

Here's my position on health care:

I think that so long as there are doctors freely available to work, everyone is entitled to some basic level of health care. But if you want expensive or state of the art treatments you must be able to pay for it. My feeling on education is similar, everyone is entitled to some basic education (K-12) and if you want more than that you should either get a scholarship or pay for it. (although i'm all in favor of increasing funding towards government sponsored K-12 education, so the poor get a better education, which is one of the many reasons i'm considered a left-winger in the U.S.... )

I feel that if the Rich want to pay a private doctor to do some expensive treatment or even gene therapy, that's a private arrangement between the Rich person and the doctor and has absolutely nothing to do with anyone else. Frankly, as long as the rich arn't using their money to screw the poor over, it's none of the poor's business how the rich see fit to spend their money. If there's a social inequality problem, the solution is a progressive tax structure and government welfare, not restricting the freedom of the rich.

I don't think there should be restrictions on what people can spend their money on if they are not hurting other people. I also feel that if the rich have extra funds they should be able to get the best education that money can buy, and again this is a private agreement between the educators and their clients and has nothing to do with the poor.

I also think that having a competitive capitalistic market in medicine is a good thing in that it gives doctors the leeway to try new things and develop new techologies and cutting edge treatments. I think that the possibility of earning extra money gives people extra incentive to try new things, and further refine these treatments until they become well established.

...

as for eugenics, I see this as a liberty issue not an equality issue. As long as the government or some other coercive force isn't mandating it, I have no problem with it. Having the government or some other coercive body sterilizing stupid people is something that i'd completely oppose because nobody should have that kind of power, at the same time if People and their doctors want to experiment with gene therapy that's not something i'd have a problem with.
 
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peadar1987

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As crack is rather expensive, It pains me to think of the poor huddled masses in "Stockholm and Rekjavik" who are so destitute as to not even be able to afford their weekly fix of cocaine. /snark

I laughed out loud at this! It gave me an hilarious image of a group of destitute people on TV, with a BBC-style voice over: "Katja hasn't been able to afford poppers in over 3 months, and it's been 3 weeks since Hermann last shot up. However, YOU can make a difference! Simply donate £5 a month to..." :D

Anyway, I just googled: Muslim riots stockholm. Shocking, I got some hits. You guys seem to have your own problems.

That was a religious riot, to be fair, can't blame the Swedish taxation system for that!

in all seriousness, it's really apparent to me that if I ever left the U.S. I'd suddenly discover I'm actually a right-winger.

Here's my position on health care:

I think that so long as there are doctors freely available to work, everyone is entitled to some basic level of health care. But if you want expensive or state of the art treatments you must be able to pay for it. My feeling on education is similar, everyone is entitled to some basic education (K-12) and if you want more than that you should either get a scholarship or pay for it. (although i'm all in favor of increasing funding towards government sponsored K-12 education, so the poor get a better education, which is one of the many reasons i'm considered a left-winger in the U.S.... )

I feel that if the Rich want to pay a private doctor to do some expensive treatment or even gene therapy, that's a private arrangement between the Rich person and the doctor and has absolutely nothing to do with anyone else. Frankly, as long as the rich arn't using their money to screw the poor over, it's none of the poor's business how the rich see fit to spend their money. If there's a social inequality problem, the solution is a progressive tax structure and government welfare, not restricting the freedom of the rich.

I don't think there should be restrictions on what people can spend their money on if they are not hurting other people. I also feel that if the rich have extra funds they should be able to get the best education that money can buy, and again this is a private agreement between the educators and their clients and has nothing to do with the poor.

I also think that having a competitive capitalistic market in medicine is a good thing in that it gives doctors the leeway to try new things and develop new techologies and cutting edge treatments. I think that the possibility of earning extra money gives people extra incentive to try new things, and further refine these treatments until they become well established.

...

as for eugenics, I see this as a liberty issue not an equality issue. As long as the government or some other coercive force isn't mandating it, I have no problem with it. Having the government or some other coercive body sterilizing stupid people is something that i'd completely oppose because nobody should have that kind of power, at the same time if People and their doctors want to experiment with gene therapy that's not something i'd have a problem with.

I just don't think a child's background should determine how far they can go in life. I think it is the duty of a government to provide adequate education and faclities so that a child born to poor parents will have just as much of a chance to become a doctor, lawyer or head of state as one born to millionaires.
 
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Nathan45

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I just don't think a child's background should determine how far they can go in life.

I think it is the duty of a government to provide adequate education and faclities so that a child born to poor parents will have just as much of a chance to become a doctor, lawyer or head of state as one born to millionaires.

I agree that it's the government's job to provide adequate education (or adequate health care for that matter).

I just don't think it's right to actively prevent well-to-do people from seeking better education or better health care than the government provides--which is the only way you're going to bring out total equality.

If you can't spend your money on health or education what good is it? Now, i'm all in favor of quality government education and healthcare, I just don't think the government has any right to tell wealthier people that they can't hire their own doctors or educators if they don't feel that the government education or healthcare is adequate.
 
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peadar1987

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I think that the government should make it its business to ensure that state education and health care are the best available.

Obviously there are always people who are going to pay for health care and education, and the government shouldn't have any right to stop them.

I wouldn't pretend to know anything about the education system in America, but here in Ireland, many state schools are run down, and have the worst teachers and facilities going. I think it's the duty of the state to ensure that these schools are brought up to the standard of most private schools, and that investment in facilities is carried out in disadvantaged areas to combat social problems. The money for this would have to come from increased taxation of the rich.

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear before, I'm an engineer, not a lawyer, so Debate isn't a particular strong point of mine!
 
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bliz

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My husband has Type 1 diabetes. Two of our three children have Type 1. Diabetes can cause blindness, heart attacks, loss of limbs, etc. They will put much heavier demand on the health care system than the average person.

Should we not have had children? Who among you would like to tell my two children they should not exist?
 
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b&wpac4

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My husband has Type 1 diabetes. Two of our three children have Type 1. Diabetes can cause blindness, heart attacks, loss of limbs, etc. They will put much heavier demand on the health care system than the average person.

Should we not have had children? Who among you would like to tell my two children they should not exist?

Forget telling them, I am willing to spend time and effort in researching a time travel device so that we can go back and time and literally make it so that they don't exist. All I need is a large government grant, 50-60 years to do my research, and absolutely no supervision or accountability as to where the money went.

:p
 
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DZoolander

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My husband has Type 1 diabetes. Two of our three children have Type 1. Diabetes can cause blindness, heart attacks, loss of limbs, etc. They will put much heavier demand on the health care system than the average person.

Should we not have had children? Who among you would like to tell my two children they should not exist?

That's kind of unfair. The gist of what's being discussed is whether or not people that know they have congenital conditions that might lead to a severely decreased quality of life for the offspring ought to take that into consideration before having children.

...and that's a fair question.

I'd venture to say that the more severe the condition - the more it's incumbent upon you to weigh the options. If you've got diabetes (which of course can lead to those things) - but which can be managed by simple insulin injections...you're further down the spectrum of worries than say if you stood a good chance of having a severely retarded child.

People always seem to have some sort of "slippery slope" type of mentality...where if you're going to say something for one group - it ought to apply to all groups. That's simply not the case.

Furthermore - we're not talking about how to address problems with those that are already here. We're talking about preventative measures prior to conception - taken in the hopes of assuring the best possible life for those that we're *choosing* to bring into this world.

Ought your diabetic children to be here? Of course. However - if God had come to you and said "If you conceive this month - you're going to have a diabetic child...but if you conceive next month...you're going to have one free of that condition" - I'd hope you'd wait until next month. Doing so certainly wouldn't be any kind of foul.
 
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Nathan45

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I don't recall anyone inferring that wealthier people can't hire their own doctors.

"?"

If everyone has the same access to the same quality of medical care, regardless of ability to pay, that implies that wealthy people can't hire their own doctors, because if wealthy people could, they would then have access to better doctors than others.

I also think that the suggestion that "Government health care should be the best available" is an impossible task because at some point the best health care would require as many or more caregivers than receivers. But you can't have 2 doctors per person on government health care, because then there would be more doctors than people.
 
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DZoolander

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If everyone has access to the same quality of medical care, that means that wealthier people can't hire their own doctors or they would have better quality medical care than everyone else.

The goal of nationalized medicine is not to ensure that everyone has equal access to the same doctors - at least not in my view (and I'm a proponent of nationalized medicine). The goal - rather - is to ensure that everyone has access to some degree of quality care and no-one is denied care due to inability to pay.

If Bill Gates wants to hire a doctor to be his private physician - he is perfectly free to do so. If he wishes to purchase all of the medical equipment necessary to ensure that every possible contingency is met - he is perfectly free to do so as well. I don't think anyone would object to that.
 
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