Genesis 3:15 translation help...

[simonthezealot]

At first glance the D/R translation causes me to shudder, would someone share with me how this breaks down and how they could interpret it so different from the balance?

http://bible.cc/genesis/3-15.htm


New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
I will make you and the woman hostile toward each other. I will make your descendants and her descendant hostile toward each other. He will crush your head, and you will bruise his heel."
King James Bible
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
American King James Version
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; it shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.
American Standard Version
and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Bible in Basic English
And there will be war between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed: by him will your head be crushed and by you his foot will be wounded.
Douay-Rheims Bible
I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
Darby Bible Translation
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he shall crush thy head, and thou shalt crush his heel.
English Revised Version
and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Webster's Bible Translation
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
World English Bible
I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will bruise your head, and you will bruise his heel."
Young's Literal Translation
and enmity I put between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he doth bruise thee -- the head, and thou dost bruise him -- the heel.'

 

[Mary of Bethany]

I looked it up in the Septuagint (Brenton's translation).It renders it this way:

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman and between thy seed and her seed, he shall watch against thy head, and thou shalt watch against his heel.

Mary

 

[simonthezealot]

I'm totally confused why it would be translated to She???
Christ defeats the serpent!

 

[simonthezealot]

Not sure why I posted this in mariology i shoulda put it in gt where it would receive more attention, i'm hoping LL and thekla weigh in on this.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I looked it up in the Septuagint (Brenton's translation).It renders it this way:

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman and between thy seed and her seed, he shall watch against thy head, and thou shalt watch against his heel.

Mary

There does appear to be a difference of rendering between the Hebrew and LXX. Give me time to study more on this.

http://www.scripture4all.org/
Hebrew/English Interlinar

Gene 3:15 And enmity I am setting between thee and between the woman, and between seed of thee and between seed of her, he, he shall hurt/bruise thou head, and thou, thou shall hurt/bruise him heel".

07779 shuwph {shoof} a primitive root; TWOT - 2349; v
AV - bruise 2, break 1, cover 1; 4

טו וְאֵיבָה אָשִׁית, בֵּינְךָ וּבֵין הָאִשָּׁה, וּבֵין זַרְעֲךָ, וּבֵין
זַרְעָהּ: הוּא יְשׁוּפְךָ רֹאשׁ, וְאַתָּה תְּשׁוּפֶנּוּ עָקֵב.

[LXX] Genesis 3:15 kai exqran qhsw ana meson sou kai ana meson thv gunaikov kai ana meson tou spermatov sou kai ana meson tou spermatov authv autov sou thrhsei/#5083 kefalhn kai su thrhseiv/#5083 autou pternan

5083. tereo tay-reh'-o from teros (a watch; perhaps akin to 2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly, by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from 5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from 2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus),

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Not sure why I posted this in mariology i shoulda put it in gt where it would receive more attention, i'm hoping LL and thekla way in on this.

I would post it on the Christian Scriptures board maybe but we can always do it on the GT board....that would be fun!......

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'm totally confused why it would be translated to She???
Christ defeats the serpent!

Yeah, I don't understand why the D-R translated like this.

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

Douay-Rheims Bible
I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

 

[simonthezealot]

It almost seems like it may have been translated with the marian doctrine presupposition...
kinda like the jw's with John 1:1

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It almost seems like it may have been translated with the marian doctrine presupposition...
kinda like the jw's with John 1:1

Actually the JW's translations aren't that bad.
But I have noticed the LXX seems to be a little lacking in rendering the Hebrew to the Greek in a number of places.
I prefer the Hebrew myself.

 

[DD2008]

Yeah, I don't understand why the D-R translated like this.

Search for 'Genesis 1:1' in the version

Douay-Rheims Bible
I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

Maybe the translators of the Douay Rheims were trying to build an illicit case for Mary worship. Maybe they worshiped Mary and that was a cause of all the fuss in the 1500's?

Just an idea. I don't know them personally though. It just seems odd that that is the only bible that translates that verse that way and their particular group is notorious for parading around statues of Mary and bowing in prayer to it. So, it does make sense.

 

[simonthezealot]

Maybe the translators of the Douay Rheims were trying to build an illicit case for Mary worship. Maybe they worshiped Mary and that was a cause of all the fuss in the 1500's?

Just an idea. I don't know them personally though. It just seems odd that that is the only bible that translates that verse that way and their particular group is notorious for parading around statues of Mary and bowing in prayer to it. So, it does make sense.

Well in all honesty that is directly where my thoughts went to when I read this...

 

[Thekla]

Hi, Simon -
sorry for the delay, I didn't think to answer. All the LXX resources I have (and Mary posted the Brenton which agrees) have "he". (The Masoretic I use has "pound your head/bite his heel" ). Perhaps there was a difference in the primary texts ?

 

[simonthezealot]

Thanks thekla...By primary text you mean what?
Sorry i'm slow and unstudied on this stuff.

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[simonthezealot]

This is a statue of the Virgin Mary holding the baby Jesus that stands outside the Catholic school. In this statue it is Mary who is crushing the serpent's head??????? Strange indeed...

 

[DD2008]

Well in all honesty that is directly where my thoughts went to when I read this...

Very interesting indeed. Thank you Simon for raising this question.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This is a statue of the Virgin Mary holding the baby Jesus that stands outside the Catholic school. In this statue it is Mary who is crushing the serpent's head??????? Strange indeed...

I prefer this one

http://www.christianforums.com/t7238619-3/
Picture: The Scroll, the Serpent, and our Salvation

 

[Thekla]

Thanks thekla...By primary text you mean what?
Sorry i'm slow and unstudied on this stuff.

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I don't know anything about the DR translation, but it is possible that the translation was done from a different original manuscript source - one that perhaps had a difference in this word.

 

[simonthezealot]

I was taught that Genesis 3:15 was the protoevangelon of the gospel...If that is as i've been taght then this is a very very scary move on satans part to attempt to shift the gospel message off Christ.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This is interesting. I had Genesis 3:15 quoted on that thread

http://www.christianforums.com/t7238619-3/#post47140984

 

[Thekla]

I guess it might be important to find the origin of the word that differs, or in which (if any) stage of translation -- I just read that the DR is tr. from the Vulgate done by Jerome (tr. from the Tanakh in the 4th c.). In short, the DR is a translation of a translation -- and manuscript copyists can make mistakes.