An example why Gay agenda undermines religious freedom

[brightmorningstar]

To Maren,

The gay bookstore can limit the type of book based on sexuality

no it cant re read the article. Then when you can see it please re-address my question.
Namely
For example, a lesbian and gay bookshop will not have to start stocking books aimed at heterosexual readers

The difference is, they cannot base their decision on whether or not to sell their to an individual based on that person's religion or sexual orientation.

Well the gay hotel does, it does exclusively for gay men, so it discriminates against women and straights.

 

[Belk]

To Maren,
No not regardless of topic. Please re-read the passages.


Sorry but you have your own different argument there, and not the prejudiced one I have shown. . The hotel is not refusing a room on the basis of sexual orientation, the homosexuals were offered a room, they just were not the room they wanted. Similarly the gay bookshop is also offering the heterosexual a book it just isnt the book they want.

But in the one case the hotel had the room, they just refused to provide it. In the case of the bookshop they did not have the book requested so where unable to provide it. Unless there is something I am missing here?

 

[Maren]

To Maren,
No not regardless of topic. Please re-read the passages.

Yes, regardless of the topic. The qualifier is that it has to be a book that is currently in the bookstore.

Sorry but you have your own different argument there, and not the prejudiced one I have shown. . The hotel is not refusing a room on the basis of sexual orientation, the homosexuals were offered a room, they just were not the room they wanted. Similarly the gay bookshop is also offering the heterosexual a book it just isnt the book they want.

Okay, then fine, the hotel is discriminating based on the gender of the people -- and gender is also a protected class. You are grasping at straws here, the point is that they cannot rent some rooms to a pair of opposite gender and refuse to rent to a pair that are of the same gender.

 

[Skaloop]

But in the one case the hotel had the room, they just refused to provide it. In the case of the bookshop they did not have the book requested so where unable to provide it. Unless there is something I am missing here?

It's not you; brightmorningstar is being deliberately obtuse and disingenuous with his responses because he has been proven wrong but will not acknowledge so in a graceful manner.

 

[PsychMJC]

Well the gay hotel does, it does exclusively for gay men, so it discriminates against women and straights.

Show me that this "gay" hotel rents rooms exclusively to homosexuals. Show it to me. Don't just SAY it only rents rooms to homosexuals. Prove it. Otherwise you are just making facts up.


http://www.gaytravel.com/aboutus/DiversityStatement.cfm
"At gaytravel.com, we have an aggressive policy of nondiscrimination against any individual or group of individuals. We do not tolerate discrimination against people with HIV and AIDS or for reasons of race, sexual orientation or religious belief. We are committed to a policy of nondiscrimation based on sexual orientation in hiring, promotion, benefits and workplace ethic and respect diversity, new ideas, professionalism and hard work."

Seems gaytravel.com CATERS to the homosexual crowd.. this is perfectly legal. Their services are also available for straight people. Legal.

If they said they refuse to perform a service for heterosexuals that they perform for homosexuals on the basis of sexuality, then it would be illegal. Get it? Doubt it.

 

[Maren]

To Maren,
no it cant re read the article. Then when you can see it please re-address my question.
Namely
For example, a lesbian and gay bookshop will not have to start stocking books aimed at heterosexual readers

Exactly, a gay bookstore does not have to stock books aimed at heterosexuals just like a Christian bookstore does not have to stock books aimed at Muslims and Pagans. The law is the same for all. What the law does not allow is the gay bookstore not selling a book they have in stock to heterosexuals, just like the Christian bookstore can not refuse to sell to Pagans and Muslims.

Well the gay hotel does, it does exclusively for gay men, so it discriminates against women and straights.

I find this questionable as this contradicts your original claim, that it was only that they advertised for gay men. So please provide evidence that this is the case, that the gay hotel refuses to rent rooms to women and straights. If you can show this to be true, then I will agree with you that it is discriminatory and the government should enforce the law against them. If though, in fact, it is merely that they advertise they specialize in being for male homosexual couples there is no discrimination -- just as a Christian bookstore advertising in a Christian publication that the bookstore is there to provide services to the Christian community is not discrimination. It only becomes discrimination if they refuse to rent/sell (or limit what they will rent/sell) based on religion, sexual orientation, or gender makeup of a couple.

 

[CreedIsChrist]

Show me that this "gay" hotel rents rooms exclusively to homosexuals. Show it to me. Don't just SAY it only rents rooms to homosexuals. Prove it. Otherwise you are just making facts up.


http://www.gaytravel.com/aboutus/DiversityStatement.cfm
"At gaytravel.com, we have an aggressive policy of nondiscrimination against any individual or group of individuals. We do not tolerate discrimination against people with HIV and AIDS or for reasons of race, sexual orientation or religious belief. We are committed to a policy of nondiscrimation based on sexual orientation in hiring, promotion, benefits and workplace ethic and respect diversity, new ideas, professionalism and hard work."

Seems gaytravel.com CATERS to the homosexual crowd.. this is perfectly legal. Their services are also available for straight people. Legal.

If they said they refuse to perform a service for heterosexuals that they perform for homosexuals on the basis of sexuality, then it would be illegal. Get it? Doubt it.

brightmorningstar actually sent me a link of that hotel. Due to some of the pics on the site I don't think its apporpiate to link it here. Im sure it could be PMed to u. Its a hotel thats exclusively only for gay people

 

[Psudopod]

The gay bookstore can limit the type of book based on sexuality
no it cant re read the article. Then when you can see it please re-address my question.
Namely
For example, a lesbian and gay bookshop will not have to start stocking books aimed at heterosexual readers

BMS, what you have quoted there says exactly what Maren was saying: the bookshop can be specialist interest, it does not have to stock “heterosexual” books. However, if a heterosexual person comes in and wants to buy a “gay” book, they have to serve them. The issue is not what services are offered, but who they are offered to.

The difference is, they cannot base their decision on whether or not to sell their to an individual based on that person's religion or sexual orientation.
Well the gay hotel does, it does exclusively for gay men, so it discriminates against women and straights.

Do you have any evidence that the hotel actively refuses straight and female clients?

 

[PsychMJC]

brightmorningstar actually sent me a link of that hotel. Due to some of the pics on the site I don't think its apporpiate to link it here. Im sure it could be PMed to u. Its a hotel thats exclusively only for gay people

Go ahead, PM it to me.

 

[b&wpac4]

brightmorningstar actually sent me a link of that hotel. Due to some of the pics on the site I don't think its apporpiate to link it here. Im sure it could be PMed to u. Its a hotel thats exclusively only for gay people

Does it turn away heterosexuals? If the answer is anything other than yes, your argument fails as well.

 

[Skaloop]

Go ahead, PM it to me.

PM it to all! Or even just post the URL without an active link. Maybe I'll book a room there... if they'll let me!

 

[PsychMJC]

PM it to all! Or even just post the URL without an active link. Maybe I'll book a room there... if they'll let me!

As soon as I get the link I am going to try.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To b&wpac4,

I'm done discussing this with you. It's quite clear you have no intention on actually understanding this and simply pushing your agenda.

If you aren't prepared to address my points specifcally I would say it was you pushing your agenda.

 

[b&wpac4]

To b&wpac4,
If you aren't prepared to address my points specifcally I would say it was you pushing your agenda.

You haven't made any points. You either don't want to or don't actually grasp the legal concepts being discussed here. People like you make discussion and debate an impossibility. I'm really tired of it, because I always get frustrated when discussing anything with you.

If the laws of the area say you cannot deny people shared rooms because they are unmarried, the hotel cannot deny people shared rooms. WHY IS THAT SO HARD? It seems simple and yet, every time I post it, you come back with some crazy, unrelated response about bookstores.

You may setup a business to sell the products you wish to sell. If you want to sell Christian books, that's fine. If I come to your store, I cannot demand you sell me a Hindu book, as you don't carry it. That is not discrimination, that is simply not carrying a product I want. But, if I come to your store, you cannot point to me and say "You aren't a Christian, so you can't buy these books." That is discrimination and is illegal.

LIKEWISE, if you run a hotel and you allow shared rooms for unmarried heterosexual couples, you cannot disallow it for unmarried homosexual ones. If the laws of the area you live in say you cannot deny anybody a shared room, then you must follow the laws of the area you live in.

Which part of all this are you failing to understand?

 

[Skaloop]

To b&wpac4,
If you aren't prepared to address my points specifcally I would say it was you pushing your agenda.

Several of us have addressed your points multiple times, clearly and simply explaining where you were incorrect and why. The first couple of times it was explained you had the benefit of the doubt that you were just misunderstanding the issue. The next dozen times it was explained made it clear you were purposefully muddying the waters.

This isn't even about an agenda at all. This is about your inability to understand the difference between discrimination and target marketing.

 

[PsychMJC]

It's a mens hotel. Straight men. Gay men. Bisexual men. Just men. Like the women-only fitness centers, they are within their legal rights to restrict access to one gender. Within the framework of the law in their location they are doing nothing wrong.

To be honest it doesn't really strike me as a "hotel", but more of a mens club.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Skaloop,
Sorry the logic is quite clear to many even if not to most here.
Its quite simple. The product of the book shop is a book, the product of a hotel is a room. The gay book doesnt cater for the straight and the double room doesn't cater for the same sex couple, yet the bookshop is allowed to discriminate in that way and the hotel isnt.
The fact is I have posted evidence before showing a hotel is not allowed to refuse a double room to a gay couple but a hotel can advertise and cater for gay men only.
You cant argue with that.

 

[PsychMJC]

To Skaloop,
Sorry the logic is quite clear to many even if not to most here.
Its quite simple. The product of the book shop is a book, the product of a hotel is a room. The gay book doesnt cater for the straight and the double room doesn't cater for the same sex couple, yet the bookshop is allowed to discriminate in that way and the hotel isnt.
The fact is I have posted evidence before showing a hotel is not allowed to refuse a double room to a gay couple but a hotel can advertise and cater for gay men only.
You cant argue with that.

The gay book store does not cater to straight people, but straight people are perfectly welcome to come into the store, browse, and even buy. That they generally don't is of no concern.

Christian bookstores don't cater to me, because I am not a Christian. But I am allowed to come into the store and shop if I wish. That I may not wish to is of no concern.

The logic IS quite clear.

 

[Skaloop]

To Skaloop,
Sorry the logic is quite clear to many even if not to most here.
Its quite simple. The product of the book shop is a book, the product of a hotel is a room. The gay book doesnt cater for the straight and the double room doesn't cater for the same sex couple, yet the bookshop is allowed to discriminate in that way and the hotel isnt.
The fact is I have posted evidence before showing a hotel is not allowed to refuse a double room to a gay couple but a hotel can advertise and cater for gay men only.
You cant argue with that.

You're still missing the difference between refusing service to a specific group and advertising/catering to a specific group. Care to take a poll of people reading this thread to see who is in the right?

There remain only two options. You are either faking ignorance of the difference, or you are not. If you are, stop, because it's not funny anymore. If you aren't, stop, because you are making yourself look the fool.

But you are right about one thing; I can't argue with that. Because if I do it again, after already doing it in full several times, I will say something I shouldn't.

Good day, sir. Please do not address me on this topic any further unless you are willing to stop playing your juvenile little game.

 

[David Brider]

To Skaloop,
Sorry the logic is quite clear to many even if not to most here.
Its quite simple. The product of the book shop is a book, the product of a hotel is a room. The gay book doesnt cater for the straight and the double room doesn't cater for the same sex couple, yet the bookshop is allowed to discriminate in that way and the hotel isnt.

For one thing, this term you're bandying about - "gay book". No such thing. There are books that are of interest, generally, to LGBTQ people. There are bookshops that mainly or exclusively stock such books, and mainstream bookshops such as Waterstones or Foyles will often have sections devoted to such books. However, such books can be of interest to straight people as well as lesbians, gays, bisexuals, and transgender people (to be honest, they're covered under the "Q" bit of "LGBTQ"), so there's no discrimination going on there - anyone is free to buy such books, from mainstream or specialist bookshops.

But if a hotel decides not to allow same-gender couples to book into double rooms but does allow opposite-gender couples to book into double rooms, that hotel is discriminating against same-gender couples.

So there's no real comparison between the two situations.

The fact is I have posted evidence before showing a hotel is not allowed to refuse a double room to a gay couple but a hotel can advertise and cater for gay men only.
You cant argue with that.

You seem to have missed PsychMJC's post pointing out that it's neither a hotel nor exclusive to people of any particular sexual orientation, but is rather some kind of men's club.

David.