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Is the Sex Industry (Pornography Included) - in and of itself - Immoral?

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white dove

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I thought about the other pornography thread in this sub-forum and decided it could easily split off into numerous conversations about the porn industry and sex industries, in general. This would include: prostitution, stripping, sex tourism, etc.. Please feel free to answer specifically or in broad terms. Please use medical journals, when needed. Also, if you have any personal experience, please feel free to share (no one is to scorn).


What are your thoughts on the question?

Are there fundamental reasons we should be concerned about this industry?

Can you see both sides of the argument?

What if it was your child involved?

Do the means justify the end?
 

Shane Roach

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I thought about the other pornography thread in this sub-forum and decided it could easily split off into numerous conversations about the porn industry and sex industries, in general. This would include: prostitution, stripping, sex tourism, etc.. Please feel free to answer specifically or in broad terms. Please use medical journals, when needed. Also, if you have any personal experience, please feel free to share (no one is to scorn).


What are your thoughts on the question?

Are there fundamental reasons we should be concerned about this industry?

Can you see both sides of the argument?

What if it was your child involved?

Do the means justify the end?

What people have forgotten in their glamorization of this industry and trying to portray it as somehow femenist, is that it is essentially a stupid, common criminal ploy.

The girl baits the man. The man gets interested. The girl demands money. The man gets mad. Generally, he walks away....

But wait, what if you set up a situation where the woman can bait the man over a long course of time, woo him so to speak on the whole money issue?

You increase the likelihood of two things. He may well cave and pay. He may also get mad and attempt to take what you're teasing him with.

Ever notice the size of the bouncers at your average topless bar?

The sex industry has always been about extorting money from men. It is by and large a man's game. Whether it's the pimp and the harlot, the topless bar and the manager, or the prostitute and the city of Amsterdam, someone besides the woman is getting paid to protect, or else the lady is going to end up giving up the goods for free a lot more than she's comfortable with.

It's a disgusting and crooked industry that should be shut down, but I do not hold out much hope for that. I am not aware of any free nation that ever has.

I don't believe you will even find any specific punishment for prostitution in the Old Testament, although from time to time I am still taken aback by a verse I have forgotten.
 
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FaithLikeARock

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I don't think stripping falls under the same category as sex tourism nor do I think online porn is anything like prostitution. But I digress. I think the sex industry has only one motive: money. They all know that sex sells. For pretty much everyone involved in the sex industry, it's pretty much about money. I'd like to say even the actors get more out of the money than the pleasure. That may not be true but I've never heard of a porn star declining a million dollars for a shooting and saying "That's okay, I just like the sex".
 
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white dove

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I don't think stripping falls under the same category as sex tourism nor do I think online porn is anything like prostitution. But I digress. I think the sex industry has only one motive: money. They all know that sex sells. For pretty much everyone involved in the sex industry, it's pretty much about money. I'd like to say even the actors get more out of the money than the pleasure. That may not be true but I've never heard of a porn star declining a million dollars for a shooting and saying "That's okay, I just like the sex".

"Many women earn all or part of their living as sex workers or in other areas of the sex industry, including pornography, nude dancing, telephone sex, and computer pornography."

Taken from this website.
 
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FaithLikeARock

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"Many women earn all or part of their living as sex workers or in other areas of the sex industry, including pornography, nude dancing, telephone sex, and computer pornography."

Taken from this website.

Precisely.
 
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Jade Margery

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What's the difference between paying someone for sex and buying them a diamond engagement ring and a gold wedding band for sex?

Difference is, when you want to discontinue the service, back-fees take half of your stuff.
 
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namaste_benry

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white dove said:
I thought about the other pornography thread in this sub-forum and decided it could easily split off into numerous conversations about the porn industry and sex industries, in general. This would include: prostitution, stripping, sex tourism, etc.. Please feel free to answer specifically or in broad terms. Please use medical journals, when needed. Also, if you have any personal experience, please feel free to share (no one is to scorn).


What are your thoughts on the question?

It's kind of difficult to give a simple black or white answer, but in general I do think the sex industry is an immoral thing. There are some exceptions, but in most cases I think it devalues authentic, trust-based, love-based relationships and replaces them with distance and superficiality. Porn, from what I know of it, doesn't place much value on the mutual contentment or authenticity of the people involved, but presents sex as something selfish; you're supposed to obtain pleasure for yourself at others' expense, using them how you want. Stripping and prostitution also encourage this. There is no possibility of anything real coming from those kind of encounters. It's just sexual pleasure with no emotional contact and I think that degrades human needs, not just women's but men's too. Porn and all that stuff trains men to respond like Pavlov's dogs to a disdainful, bleached, spread-eagle photograph, not how to respond to and interact with real women. It cheapens their sexual encounters because it's "just sex", ie: nothing to get very excited about. For women, it teaches us that we have no further purpose than to gratify men sexually, and I think that robs everybody. People think they are getting a treat when they go to a strip club or watch a porn video, but usually, I think they are getting taken advantage of. They are settling for a lot, lot less than they could have. That's why I think it's bad, not because it breaks some law or because people's bodies shouldn't be on display, but because it cheapens the whole thing. People who spend a lot of time and money on the sex industry are trading something fun and real and important and nature and getting plastic instead. That's kinda pathetic.

Are there fundamental reasons we should be concerned about this industry?

Some people say seeing women made into bland sex objects makes it harder for men to interact with actual women in any meaningful way, so yes, I think we should. Also, I've heard that in some cases those who are very involved in watching porn, strippers, etc are more likely to commit violence against women, or crimes like rape. Those fake, artificial bodies are also a problem. A mentor actually told me that in the past Playboy and whatever showed women with tan lines, freckles, imperfections, like actual real women. Now, the images are more than 50% airbrushed or computer drawn. People are getting unrealistic images through porn, thinking that women actually look like they do in Playboy or whatever. That's damaging. Unless we know 100% that porn has absolutely no negative impact on anybody, we should care.

Can you see both sides of the argument?

I can see the argument that people should be able to make their own choices, yeah. The simplistic argument is if I want to watch porn in my own house, or go to the strip club, or go to Thailand and sleep with pre-teen girls it's my business. But, it's not that simple at all. Your choices affect me and so on. If some guy watches violent rape fetish porn in the privacy of his own home, it might lead to him being aggressive or disrespectful when I meet him. So, I get that argument but I don't believe it.

What if it was your child involved?

I'm in college and don't have any kids, but I can imagine what my parents would feel and say if I were involved. I guess if I believed completely that a person entered into the sex industry voluntarily I would accept that, but I don't think that's possible. Many people in it our outright coerced and pressured, or feel they don't have any options. Others might think it's what they want but they also live in a culture that makes sex a commodity, and I don't think the choice is entirely made by them alone.

Do the means justify the end?

I'm not sure what this means. I don't think the sex industry is justifiable, no. I see nothing positive about it, not much neutral either.
 
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morningstar2651

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It's kind of difficult to give a simple black or white answer, but in general I do think the sex industry is an immoral thing. There are some exceptions, but in most cases I think it devalues authentic, trust-based, love-based relationships and replaces them with distance and superficiality. Porn, from what I know of it, doesn't place much value on the mutual contentment or authenticity of the people involved, but presents sex as something selfish; you're supposed to obtain pleasure for yourself at others' expense, using them how you want. Stripping and prostitution also encourage this. There is no possibility of anything real coming from those kind of encounters. It's just sexual pleasure with no emotional contact and I think that degrades human needs, not just women's but men's too. Porn and all that stuff trains men to respond like Pavlov's dogs to a disdainful, bleached, spread-eagle photograph, not how to respond to and interact with real women. It cheapens their sexual encounters because it's "just sex", ie: nothing to get very excited about. For women, it teaches us that we have no further purpose than to gratify men sexually, and I think that robs everybody. People think they are getting a treat when they go to a strip club or watch a porn video, but usually, I think they are getting taken advantage of. They are settling for a lot, lot less than they could have. That's why I think it's bad, not because it breaks some law or because people's bodies shouldn't be on display, but because it cheapens the whole thing. People who spend a lot of time and money on the sex industry are trading something fun and real and important and nature and getting plastic instead. That's kinda pathetic.



Some people say seeing women made into bland sex objects makes it harder for men to interact with actual women in any meaningful way, so yes, I think we should. Also, I've heard that in some cases those who are very involved in watching porn, strippers, etc are more likely to commit violence against women, or crimes like rape. Those fake, artificial bodies are also a problem. A mentor actually told me that in the past Playboy and whatever showed women with tan lines, freckles, imperfections, like actual real women. Now, the images are more than 50% airbrushed or computer drawn. People are getting unrealistic images through porn, thinking that women actually look like they do in Playboy or whatever. That's damaging. Unless we know 100% that porn has absolutely no negative impact on anybody, we should care.



I can see the argument that people should be able to make their own choices, yeah. The simplistic argument is if I want to watch porn in my own house, or go to the strip club, or go to Thailand and sleep with pre-teen girls it's my business. But, it's not that simple at all. Your choices affect me and so on. If some guy watches violent rape fetish porn in the privacy of his own home, it might lead to him being aggressive or disrespectful when I meet him. So, I get that argument but I don't believe it.



I'm in college and don't have any kids, but I can imagine what my parents would feel and say if I were involved. I guess if I believed completely that a person entered into the sex industry voluntarily I would accept that, but I don't think that's possible. Many people in it our outright coerced and pressured, or feel they don't have any options. Others might think it's what they want but they also live in a culture that makes sex a commodity, and I don't think the choice is entirely made by them alone.



I'm not sure what this means. I don't think the sex industry is justifiable, no. I see nothing positive about it, not much neutral either.
Can you supply evidence for any of these claims, such as porn encourages rape and beating women?
 
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quatona

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Please feel free to answer specifically or in broad terms.
Well, since the answer is about immoral "in and of itself" I guess my answer will tend to be broad rather than specific.


What are your thoughts on the question?
I don´t think the sex industry is immoral in and of itself.

Are there fundamental reasons we should be concerned about this industry?
I think they are the same reasons we should be concerned about with any industry or business. Workers can be exploitet, humiliated, forced to do things they don´t want to do etc. etc. Employers simply have a lot of power that can be abused.
However, the sex industry is particularly prone to these phenomena, since society prefers to keep it in the mud corner where controls tend to be less effective.


Can you see both sides of the argument?
Well, since this thread has just started, I first would have to see the arguments.

What if it was your child involved?
I don´t have kids, but if I had any my ethical or moral ideas wouldn´t be customized when my kids were involved.


Do the means justify the end?
Whut? :confused:
 
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namaste_benry

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morningstar2651 said:
Can you supply evidence for any of these claims, such as porn encourages rape and beating women?

I don't think a definitive study has been done, but it kinda just makes sense. If you frequently watch something where women are shown to be nothing more than objects used for pleasure; where women are not depicted as having any real feelings or importance aside from the pleasure they offer; and where women being humiliated, injured, coerced or used, there is a good chance you are going to end up seeing women as less human, or inhuman. Once you see somebody in that light, they are much easier to victimize.

These are just two things a quick search on the internet provided:

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/Story?id=6256523&page=2 said:
"Overall 94.4 percent of the aggressive acts were targeted at women," she said, and "95.5 percent of the female characters who were the targets of aggression actually expressed enjoyment or had no response at all."
"Violence is met with acceptance or pleasure. So what does that mean for the viewer?" Sun said.
In the course of her research, Sun noted a much higher frequency of aggression than reported in an earlier group of content analysis studies that also evaluated porn, conducted in the early '90s. This may be partly due to the way the researchers choose to define aggression in the films studied.
Says Jensen, "The question is often asked, 'Does pornography cause rape,' and the answer is obviously 'No.' I think the question is better framed, 'Does pornography contribute to a culture in which rapes happen at the epidemic levels it does?'"

http://www.csun.edu/~vcpsy00h/pornog.htm said:
The most prevalent theme in pornography is one of utter contempt for women. In movie after movie, women are raped, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] on, urinated on, beaten, sodomized, and left permanently scarred. Women are the objects of pornography, and men by far its largest consumers, and sexual degradation its theme.

Pornography is intended for effect; it is intended to produce both sexual arousal and actions in the consumer. What then is the consumer's response to watching or looking at pornographic material? People's response to this question are often varied and questionable. The most common answer by feminists is clear and simple. Violence. And not just any type of violence, but violence against women. In one survey, I looked at sixty two percent of rapists, fifty three percent of male object pedophiles, and fifty six percent of female object pedophiles were regular engagers in vpornography.
The facts are clear. Sex and violent crime offenders have a critical link to pornography. These sex offenders had a high exposure to pornography as adolescents, and it carries on with them during their lifetime.

Of course I think it's possible for a person to occasionally watch a porn video or go to a strip club on their 21st birthday and not end up some raving, misogynist rapist. But I do think what you let in your head matters. If you get emotional enjoyment or sexual pleasure out of watching strangers have sex onscreen, or by seeing some bored woman twist around on a pole trying to get money, I think it colours your perception of the world, yes.
 
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morningstar2651

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Not all pornography is rubbish, there is such a thing as intelligent smut.

Sex is beautiful. It isn't some filthy shameful thing you hide in your closet with the other skeletons. Some pornography, particularly amateur pornography, isn't fake -- it actually portrays some of the beauty of sex.
 
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namaste_benry

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morningstar2651 said:
Not all pornography is rubbish, there is such a thing as intelligent smut.

Probably true. Actually, definitely true. Ever read fanfic? :) But a lot isn't, and that's what I'm talking about.

Sex is beautiful. It isn't some filthy shameful thing you hide in your closet with the other skeletons. Some pornography, particularly amateur pornography, isn't fake -- it actually portrays some of the beauty of sex.

The whole reason I'm against porn is because I think sex is beautiful. If I thought it was dirty, I'd support people spending lonely hours watching sex videos by themselves at home on the computer, or going to special clubs to ogle people they can't touch, and generally keeping sex to themselves, turning it into something tawdry and nasty. I think porn is what pushes people to hide their sexuality in the closet, actually. Porn often gives a bland, boring scenario devoid of fun, without an exciting connection, true intimacy (ie: comfort with your body), mutual experimentation or a wider context to share it in. Porn has a very narrow definition of what is sexy, and that usually doesn't include much beyond stereotypes (the schoolgirl with the lollipop, the dominatrix and her whip). Porn says keep the messy, emotional, gleeful, silly, imperfect aspects of sex out, and instead you should look at this airbrushed artificial hottie leaning over a car you'll never own, having sex with some hairless, half-animated guy you aren't. That's why it sucks, in my opinion. It's boring.

The stuff you mentioned sounds more interesting. Real people enjoying themselves and being silly, taking pictures or whatever, seems much cooler.
 
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white dove

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Shane Roach said:
What people have forgotten in their glamorization of this industry and trying to portray it as somehow femenist, is that it is essentially a stupid, common criminal ploy.

Your inclusion of the word "feminist" is very important to me. In this age, we consider feminism as something that includes a woman's control over her own sexuality. By this standard, we consider women who are a part of the adult film world, those who go wild on "Girls Gone Wild," strip at a topless (and/or bottomless) bar or even those who pose nude in magazines as something that attests to this control. However, it is a lie - a white one, at times perhaps, but a lie nonetheless.

Many people (if not all) who insist that this is not so are typically those who condone, if not perpetuate this very behavior. They neglect that a plethora of these sex workers have been abused in their past - some a very recent past and that this typically paints a picture of how abuse begets abuse. They neglect the fact that women are consistantly taken advantage of and are degraded in their chosen sex field - whatever the field.

I have heard of strippers being forced to crawl on their hands and kness in order to pick up the "makin' it rain" money off the floor of the platform. I have known of strippers who required drugs or alcohol in order to perform on-stage. I have heard stories of numerous adult film actors/actresses who have gone on to either die of disease brought on by their "chosen profession" or by suicide. This does not demonstrate this "I love sex so this is what I do" mentality that many pornographers/viewers insist on.

Shane Roach said:
The sex industry has always been about extorting money from men.

I respectfully disagree. It is an industry which has done nothing but extort other human beings (largely, women) specifically for monetary gain.

You said it yourself right here:

Shane Roach said:
It is by and large a man's game. Whether it's the pimp and the harlot, the topless bar and the manager, or the prostitute and the city of Amsterdam, someone besides the woman is getting paid to protect, or else the lady is going to end up giving up the goods for free a lot more than she's comfortable with.
 
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white dove

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Jade Margery said:
Difference is, when you want to discontinue the service, back-fees take half of your stuff.

In which way were you referring? Are you talking about a situation wherein an ex-husband is ordered to pay half of his salary to his former wife... or where a former sex worker discontinues working, yet lives with HPV and must sustain numerous vaginal scrapings for the duration of her life?


quatona said:
However, the sex industry is particularly prone to these phenomena, since society prefers to keep it in the mud corner where controls tend to be less effective.

Is this really the reason you think this occurs? Please consider your thoughts carefully and post your reply.

quatona said:
I don´t have kids, but if I had any my ethical or moral ideas wouldn´t be customized when my kids were involved.

What if your son/daughter decided to become a sex worker? What would be your thought processes or course of action, if any? Please walk me through that.

Shane Roach said:
Yeah, I kind of balked on the question about the means justifying the end. Apparently I was not the only one who did not quite get the connection...

The end is ultimately completing the work and getting a paycheck (maybe). Many people (millions) benefit from the work that sex workers do. Is that end justified through the means in which it was attained?

HighwayMan said:
It's "not the right way to do things", but then again so are a lot of things in society.

How is it not the "right way to do things?" Please explain your thoughts a little bit more in-depth. (I know I said you could be broad, but I'm just trying to understand your rationale).
 
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white dove

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namaste_benry said:
The whole reason I'm against porn is because I think sex is beautiful. If I thought it was dirty, I'd support people spending lonely hours watching sex videos by themselves at home on the computer, or going to special clubs to ogle people they can't touch, and generally keeping sex to themselves, turning it into something tawdry and nasty. I think porn is what pushes people to hide their sexuality in the closet, actually. Porn often gives a bland, boring scenario devoid of fun, without an exciting connection, true intimacy (ie: comfort with your body), mutual experimentation or a wider context to share it in. Porn has a very narrow definition of what is sexy, and that usually doesn't include much beyond stereotypes (the schoolgirl with the lollipop, the dominatrix and her whip). Porn says keep the messy, emotional, gleeful, silly, imperfect aspects of sex out, and instead you should look at this airbrushed artificial hottie leaning over a car you'll never own, having sex with some hairless, half-animated guy you aren't. That's why it sucks, in my opinion. It's boring.


Thank you for your post. It's wonderful how you included different aspects not often thought about. I have nothing to say at the moment. :)
 
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HighwayMan

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How is it not the "right way to do things?" Please explain your thoughts a little bit more in-depth. (I know I said you could be broad, but I'm just trying to understand your rationale).

Because they are using their bodies - an artificial quality instead of hard work to earn money. Not to mention that pornography needs to be immoral in order for it to work - they make money by creating the image of "naughty". They want it to be "immoral" and "prohibited", because that's what attracts people to buy their stuff. It's the main sellpoint - watching something you know you're not supposed to.
 
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